When will Pakistan become a 1st world country?

[GreenFalcon]

Being a realist, I say that as long as the Kashmir issue is not resolved, both Pakistan and India are just going to be lingering around, while the world takes giant leaps. Proxies, propaganda, and hatred over the years has become one of the main cause for the situation at hand. Pakistan has always desired that the issue of Kashmir should be resolved diplomatically, while India is more keen on suppressing the issue by force.

Secondly, The federation of Pakistan is not sturdy enough to evolve into a second or a first world stage because this whole system is corrupt and beyond repair. One of the main luxuries that we enjoy in the first-world nations is Justice, and as long as a nation can't deliver justice to ALL, it will remain a third-world country.

@war&peace @Doordie

 

[Kabira]

Is having girls and boys' sections separate that bad of a thing? Our culture calls for that, whether you like it or not. If that is to change, it will change gradually as the newer generation rises.

Besides, I have personally been to concerts in Lahore where the girls and boys were free to mix. Peshawar is considerably more conservative than Lahore, at least as far as I know.

Regardless, that's not the point. The point is that the developed countries became developed before they became liberal. Just becoming liberal won't solve problems.

You are not getting it do you? When did I say it was good or bad? But it's a fact that more richer and well of families are least conservative in Pakistan unless they belong to kanjar khandan in that case they don't have to be rich, go figure why.

Also technically that concert is not part of our culture. But you accept it as long as they have separate section for genders. Next generation may not even have problem with mixed section.

 

[Menace2Society]

-control population growth to max of 300 million
-increase electric generation massively (nat gas fired, solar, wind, nuclear)
-plan for water scarcity and how to mitigate it.
-eliminate terrorism and madrassas
-make peace with India
-become more secular

- Agreed
- Agreed
- Agreed
- Like US has made peace with Russia? This has nothing to do with prosperity. India is a regional rival, its the way it is.
- Agreed

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Thirdly, do we really want all this? You might, but does 99% of Pakistan's population? Is it right to declare that Pakistan can not be developed unless a foreign ideology is imposed on 200 million people? Is that 'Democratic'

No, 99.9% of Pakistan does not want it because majority are one yard away from middle ages and economic feudalism. That is why Pakistan is 3rd world. When Pakistan moves forward like Turkey has things will begin to change - further along it will end up with the mindset like Hong Kong or Tokyo.

And as @save_ghenda said so presciently it is not matter of us passing judgement. This is not matter of choice or wanting. I am sure the Japanese or Chinese of 1920s did not want their young to celebrate being Gay or have their young females drunk in clubs.

Just like 1920 English or American's did not want blacks to walk their streets and have same rights as them but change happened. Nature has that in built and it is called generational drift. Each generation moves forward being replaced again, again and again slowly allowing change to happen.

 

[TankMan]

Which go to confirm what I am saying. Those elite groups with greater economic privalages seenm to to be dispaying part characteristics of 1st world (note I said 1st world and not Western) and as fruits of greater economic uplift more Pakistani's will head toward displaying similar characterstics as their economic peers in Tokyo or Hong kong or London.

Nope. The Pakistani Elite emulating the West has nothing to do with countries becoming developed. In fact, the wealth gap is a negative thing.

If you really want to be correct about the use of 'first world', 'first world' is any country that was on the US's side in the Cold War. Second World was the USSR and allies. Third World was mostly neutral.

people even try to use the terms as a ranking scheme for the state of development of countries, with the First World on top, followed by the Second World and so on, that's perfect - nonsense.

To close the gap of information you will find here explanations of the terms.

The use of the terms First, the Second, and the Third World is a rough, and it's safe to say, outdated model of the geopolitical world from the time of the cold war.

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm

No, 99.9% of Pakistan does not want it because majority are one yard away from middle ages and economic feudalism. That is why Pakistan is 3rd world. When Pakistan moves forward like Turkey has things will begin to change - further along it will end up with the mindset like Hong Kong or Tokyo.

I continue to argue the converse. If Western Liberalism (and it IS western liberalism. Countries like japan adopted it after the West did. They otherwise had very different and conservative cultures.) is in fact the correct way of doing things, it will come after Pakistan has strong institutions and a developed political and educational system.

Or, ideally, Pakistan will be able to maintain aspects of its culture while being developed, which is definitely possible.

You are not getting it do you? When did I say it was good or bad? But it's a fact that more richer and well of families are least conservative in Pakistan unless they belong to kanjar khandan in that case they don't have to be rich, go figure why.

Wasn't disagreeing with you bhai jaan, in fact was agreeing. Being 'kanjar' ,as you put it, is not a positive thing. They are only successful because they are favoured by the West and the West happens to be the dominant culture of our time.

Meanwhile, the ultra conservative Saudis are also favoured by the west and also economically developed. Because being rich ultimately has nothing to do with liberalism, unless you take advantage of liberalism to become rich.

 

[C130]

- Agreed
- Agreed
- Agreed
- Like US has made peace with Russia? This has nothing to do with prosperity. India is a regional rival, its the way it is.
- Agreed

this constant rivalry and animosity between Pakistan and India is hindering both potential economic growth.

 

[Menace2Society]

No, 99.9% of Pakistan does not want it because majority are one yard away from middle ages and economic feudalism. That is why Pakistan is 3rd world. When Pakistan moves forward like Turkey has things will begin to change - further along it will end up with the mindset like Hong Kong or Tokyo.

And as @save_ghenda said so presciently it is not matter of us passing judgement. This is not matter of choice or wanting. I am sure the Japanese or Chinese of 1920s did not want their young to celebrate being Gay or have their young females drunk in clubs.

Just like 1920 English or American's did not want blacks to walk their streets and have same rights as them but change happened. Nature has that in built and it is called generational drift. Each generation moves forward being replaced again, again and again slowly allowing change to happen.

Let me give you an example how religious dogma and lack of rational thinking can affect the direction of a nation.

After 9/11 (obviously a false flag, nothing mysterious about it whatsoever), all the Mullahs in Pakistan and abroad went into a frenzy and declared a big war coming and how this is signs of judgement day and how the world is about to end.

So what do Pakistanis do? Do what everyone in the world is not doing. By the millions they voluntarily become radicalized and stop thinking like a Pakistani and become whatever these Mullahs want them to become (Taliban or suicide bombers).

This in a nutshell is the very mindset that Pakistanis need to move away from in order to become a 1st world country. Its ape like mentality. Only now they are waking up to the fact that this world is here for a very long time and time waits for no man.

this constant rivalry and animosity between Pakistan and India is hindering both potential economic growth.

On the contrary, competition is good.

 

[TankMan]

Also technically that concert is not part of our culture. But you accept it as long as they have separate section for genders. Next generation may not even have problem with mixed section.

True, but we have equivalent forms of music and entertainment. It actually just depends on whether you consider this a 'concert' or not:

I mean, people are sitting down and enjoying music, instead of dancing to it. Is that a criteria for calling something a concert? I don't know. Besides, this is off topic.

There are definitely ways of being developed without having concerts. Concerts are actually a result of development as people have more time and money to spend on things like that.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Countries like japan adopted it after the West did

Yes, because the West was first to develop. The Chinese are also now passing down the same road. According to your logioc they are also being 'Westernized'?

If you really want to be correct about the use of 'first world', 'first world' is any country that was on the US's side in the Cold War. Second World was the USSR and allies. Third World was mostly neutral.

Those definitions are now outdated. 1st world includes all developed countries including Russia and increasingly China. Turkey is on the threshold and will be there within the generation.

Chinese 'culture'.

 

[TankMan]

Let me give you an example how religious dogma and lack of rational thinking can affect the direction of a nation.

After 9/11 (obviously a false flag, nothing mysterious about it whatsoever), all the Mullahs in Pakistan and abroad went into a frenzy and declared a big war coming and how this is signs of judgement day and how the world is about to end.

So what do Pakistanis do? Do what everyone in the world is not doing. By the millions they voluntarily become radicalized and stop thinking like a Pakistani and become whatever these Mullahs want them to become (Taliban or suicide bombers).

This in a nutshell is the very mindset that Pakistanis need to move away from in order to become a 1st world country. Its ape like mentality. Only now they are waking up to the fact that this world is here for a very long time and time waits for no man.



On the contrary, competition is good.

Any kind of dogma is dangerous. Tell me, what religion caused the countless deaths in WW1, WW2, and The Cold War? There was definitely dogma. But that was secular dogma.

Replacing religious dogma with some different kind of dogma won't change anything. The Soviet Union is a good example - replaced the Tsar and brought in state-imposed secularism and Communist dogma. Didn't really work too well for them.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

screw homosexuality!!!!

You a faggot or something?

 

[TankMan]

Yes, because the West was first to develop. The Chinese are also now passing down the same road.

The West was the first to develop because they were the first to industrialize, long before they became secular. That is the point I'm making. Liberalism came AFTER development, not the other way around.

According to your logioc they are also being 'Westernized'?

Yes, they are indeed being Westernised. Modern Japanese culture, for example, looks nothing like it did a few generations ago. They have mixed Western culture with their own and created a combination. I'm not saying it's all negative. but it IS Westernisation.

Those definitions are now outdated. 1st world includes all developed countries including Russia and increasingly China. Turkey is on the threshold and will be there within the generation.

The term 'first world' is outdated, not its definition. It's now LEDC and MEDC. Call it whatever you want, doesn't change that our current definition is fundamentally biased against any country that is not Western-style Democracy and Capitalism. This definition refuses to even entertain the idea that there could be a different system.

 

[Kabira]

Wasn't disagreeing with you bhai jaan, in fact was agreeing. Being 'kanjar' ,as you put it, is not a positive thing. They are only successful because they are favoured by the West and the West happens to be the dominant culture of our time.

Meanwhile, the ultra conservative Saudis are also favoured by the west and also economically developed. Because being rich ultimately has nothing to do with liberalism, unless you take advantage of liberalism to become rich.

Mullahs in Pakistan do not enjoy anywhere near as much influence as in Saudi Arabia. And since most of Pakistani elite are not mullahs so its only natural next generation will be even more relatively liberal and open. When most of population move to cities and with it power, what do you think will happen? I can think of many laws which will be changed in coming generation if last 8 years are anything to go by.

 

[TankMan]

Chinese 'culture'.

If that Picture represents all of Chinese culture, this picture represents all of Pakistani culture:

Better tag some Chinese members if we want to discuss their culture rather than just using google images.
@Chinese-Dragon

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Liberalism came AFTER development, not the other way around.

I know. That is what I said in my my first post. The mindset that brought about industrialization also set into motion complex changes in those societies - out of which was born what you see today. Any country that travels the same journey ends up almost at the same station with minor differances. Because the West was first to travel that road of progress it became typecast. Fact is any country, for instance China, as it moves along te path of economic development is begining to appear more and more like 1st world. That is why as I said Shanghai, Hong Kong, Tokyo or London have little differance because all have consummated the industrial process.

When Pakistan consummates the industrial process it will also look very similar top tokyo or Shanghai in mind and matter along with similar social evils.