When Islamic atheism thrived

[sur]

Arguments relating to Miracles

According to the Zumurrud, traditions concerning miracles are inevitably problematic. At the time of the performance of a supposed miracle only a small number of people could be close enough to the Prophet to observe ... These religious traditions are lies endorsed by conspiracies.

Like magicians, prophets exploit unusual natural phenomena, similar to the magnet but not as well known.
...

1st of all, nowhere in quran or ahadees word "miracle" is used... Word used is "Aayah" meaning "signs"(from God)...

Mere use of word "miracle" makes it look like magic, which is it NOT.

We cannot see infrared & ultraviolet lights but believe that they exist because different "signs" we observe via instruments... we cannot hear below 20Hz & above 20000Hz of sound frequencies, but do believe that they exist, coz we have "signs" that point towards their existance... When we get sick, we go to doctor for guidence, & whatever he tells we believe blindly & take medicine he gives us,,, Even doctor himself doesn't see the diseased organ, he just looks for the "signs" & based on them diagnose.


& can these Mr.Rationals & Co. describe if Muhammad was not a prophet of GOD, or if there was no God for that matter, how was embryological origin of testes & ovaries discovered by scientist in recent past was given in 1400+ old book???

Quran:86:5-7So let the man consider from what he is created.. 6:He is created from a fluid emitted. 7: proceeding from between the backbone and the rib. 8:Surely He(Allah) is able to bring him back (to life). 9:On the day when hidden thoughts shall be searched out

This refers to EMBRYOLOGICAL development of testes inside mothers womb:-


A structure called "Intermediate mesoderm" is formed on each sides of vertebral column(spine).
Then it differentiates into 3 parts:-

1>"Pronephros" on each side of spine of NECK(neck region) of developing baby(embryo). It dissolves off & does NOT make any important structure in fully developed human baby.

2>"Mesonephros" is part of "intermediate mesoderm" between spine & ribs (thoracic region)on each side. It develop lots of tubules which later form testes. & sperms r formed in these tubules. Then testes migrates(proceeds) downwards from here to it's final place , scrotum. In some premature babies testes r un-descended completely & r found in abdomen & have to b surgically corrected.

3>"Metanephros" is part of "intermediate mesoderm" on each side of abdominal spine of developing baby.It also form tubulus & develop into kidneys. Kidneys r in pelvis of developing baby. Then they ASCEND to reach final position in upper abdomen.


These embryological stages have been discovered in recent past. & Allah's book indicated towards it 1400+ years ago.

Quran:86:5:"So let the man consider from what he is created.. 6:He is created from a fluid emitted. 7: proceeding from between the backbone and the rib. 8:Surely He(Allah) is able to bring him back (to life). 9:On the day when hidden thoughts shall be searched out.

(that is; He can duplicate the same processes of development again)

====================================================

Right upper rounded ball is testes & Left upper rounded ball is ovary while Grey Mushroom-Like oval masses on lower side are KIDNEYS. Kidneys are formed in pelvis & then ascend to abdomen while Testes & ovaries form in Chest Region & then descend to scrotum & pelvis respectively.

[86:5] Now let human but think from what he is created![86:6] He is created from a drop emitted-[86:7] Proceeding from(indicate site of origin of gonads) between the backbone and the ribs:

So Sperm forming cells & eggs are from chest region of developing baby(embryo)

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

You can see "mesonephros" lying under ribs in picture below:-This mesonephros becomes testes in baby-boy & ovaries in baby-girls:-

To further elaborate i tried to draw this diagram:-

 

[qsaark]

You didn't understand the very topic of the posted article. A synthetic replicating bacterium was created. It did not have any ancestors nor did it evolve under natural selection.

If you do not know or understand the nature, the importance of a breakthrough, or how important most publications in Science/Nature are, then do not use idiotic analogies to compare farming to a synthetically created bacterium from human created genomes.

I wish Craig could read all this (various posts made in this thread throughout); as I know him (met with him at Cold Spring Harbor few times), he would have hit his head on his lab bench and said goodbye to Science for good.

Anyway, the very first post of this thread was an expression of great confusion on part of its author. Human mind is capable of distinguishing between good and bad hence needs no guidance.... Correct, very correct.... is that why people lie? commit homicides? destroy livelihoods? do corruption? So those who came up with the idea of law and order were idiots? the folks who wrote down constitutions were fool? the birth of religions was useless ?

Anyway, I'll restrict myself to the experiment Craig's team did and what they wanted to prove.

Craig (affectionately known as the 'Dark Prince of Molecular Biology') and his company (Celera Genomics) have been involved in the deciphering of the human genome. The experiment Craig and his team performed was simply to show that a micro-organism can survive and multiply on limited number of genes that would form a "minimal bacterial genome".

While bacteria are small, number of genes found on their genome could be tens of thousands (depending on the species). Craig's team chose a bacterium called "Mycoplasma mycoides". This bacteria is not a complex bacteria since it lacks a cell wall. The genome of Mycoplasma mycoides is composed of single circular chromosome of 1,211,703 base pairs and there are some 985 putative genes identified on the chromosome.

Before the human genome project was completed, a number of bacterial as well as viral genomes were already sequenced and the number of genes present on them were estimated. While these organism look small and not very complex, Scientists have always wondered why they contain so many genes? Are all these genes necessary? Are all the genes expressed? Is it possible to get rid of some of the genes? Could an organism survive on a minimal set of genes? 'Essential genes' has been a fundamental question of molecular biology for decades and Craig's team tried to answer this very question.

First of all, what is a gene? Gene is a sequence of four nucleotides (Adenine, Thymine, Cytosine, and Guanine) connected in pairs and supported by sugars and phosphates. This sequence of nucleotides form what we call a DNA (Deoxy ribonucleic acid) which in the presence of certain factors (enzymes, ribosomes, amino acids) makes up a protein. The protein could be a structural protein (that form structures in organelles) or globular in nature (could act as receptors, enzymes etc). However, a gene is a useless entity if it is packaged in a shell that lacks the essential components for its translation into a protein.

So can gene or more correctly DNA be described as life? No, because on its own, it does not replicate, an essential function or trait that makes something 'alive'.

So what craig did was this:

He took a shell of a Mycoplasma mycoides that had ALL THE ESSENTIAL COMPONENTS ALREADY PRESENT in it but lacked the single circular chromosome.

Than he introduced a synthetic (NOT FOREIGN) chromosome that was composed of not all of the 985 original genes but only 381 (of original 985) genes. Upon the introduction of this 'minimal genome', his team observed that the bacterium was able to multiply. Now please understand that the genes he put in the 'minimal genome' did not come from the sky nor were they brainchild of his or his team. These were all 'natural genes' known to make known proteins required for the survival and multiplication of the bacteria.

So at the end of the experiment, HE DID NOT CREATE A LIFE FORM, but only showed that a bacterium can still survive and multiply on a minimal set of 'essential genes'. He did these experiments somewhere between 2005-2006 (or even before that I am not sure) and filed for patents in October 12, 2006. At the time when he and his team was doing these landmark experiments, he would have never thought that one fateful day his work would be presented as an argument to refute the presence of God or his exclusive ability to create, the Creator on a forum called PDF. That is why it is said “jis ka kaam usi ko saajhey, aur karey to thenga baajey”.

 

[Hyde]

According to the Zumurrud, traditions concerning miracles are inevitably problematic. At the time of the performance of a supposed miracle only a small number of people could be close enough to the Prophet to observe his deeds. Reports given by such a small number of people cannot be trusted, for such a small group can easily have conspired to lie.(144) The Muslim tradition thus falls into the category of flimsy traditions, those based on a single authority (khabar al-ahad) rather than on multiple authorities (khabar mutawatir).(145) These religious traditions are lies endorsed by conspiracies.

Ok i would like to shed some light on miracles. If you guyz believe - its good - otherwise feel free to disagree and i will not object

Well i did not believe in Miracles before until i became an eye witness of somebody who is from my family. He is an uncle of my brother in Law and also brother in law of my Popho jaan. He lives in Gujrat and owns well established business. Well he has become old now and since past many years he had a habit to go Makkah and Madina to perform Umrah or Hajj and recently about 2 years ago he lost his eye sight due to old age and for unknown reasons to me. He was declared Blind by the doctors and since he is a wealthy man he went to the several doctors for treatment but nothing happened. You can say he was not completely blind but his eye sight was so weak that he could not see anybody clearly and always required an assistance of others for daily work.

Now since he is our relative we know that he had become blind and the doctors had apologized him for no cure of his eyes and about 2 years ago he went to perform Hajj or Umrah as usual and in Madina he prayed to Allah saying "Oh Allah i have been coming to your house every year or many times and i have a strong belief in you. Now i have only one desire that is to see the house/mosque of your beloved Prophet once again with my own eyes" (something like that) and you peoples may not believe but right there the very next moment his prayer was accepted and his eye sight returned. He was shocked to see that how suddenly he can see everything once again and told all those he could find. When he returned back my family once again met with him (me too met him after few months) and witnessed his perfect eyesight myself.

Now it sounds funny and illogical and those who believes only when they see something by themselves may not believe but this is what has happened with somebody i know - and i have met him myself and talked to him and my family is witness incident when he declared blind by the doctors and there was no hope of his treatment.

Now the question is he was sitting inside the Mosque of the Prophet (Masjid-e-Nabawi) and how comes his eye sight returned just after he finished his prayer? Thats what i would call a miracle and Medical science may not and may never believe all this.

Believe it or not - thats upto you - but all i can say is if such miracle can happen even today in Prophet's Mosque then why can't he perform miracle when he was alive?

 

[Durran3]

& can these Mr.Rationals & Co. describe if Muhammad was not a prophet of GOD, or if there was no God for that matter, how was embryological origin of testes & ovaries discovered by scientist in recent past was given in 1400+ old book???

wow your dumb... the anatomy of the human body has been known for a very long time and has nothing to do with whats written in the Quran 1400 years ago. It's so easy to disprove your pseudo-science its not even funny.. The essential knowledge of anatomy has remained one of the basic principles of surgery over the centuries.

The scientific dissection and vivisection of animals may have begun with the work of Alcmaeon (500 B.C.) of Crotona in Italy and Empedocles (490-430 B.C.) in Sicily. Alcmaeon was both a great physician and anatomist. He published a treatise entitled "On Nature. In preparation for this book, he dissected many animals and described his findings in detail.

Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) laid the foundation of comparative anatomy and established embryology on a scientific foundation by his direct studies of the chick embryo. His preformation theory of embryonic development survived in one form or the other until the 17th century.

Herophilus was a physician and an able surgeon and founded the science of Anatomy (he is often called the "father of anatomy"). He was thought to have lived between 325 and 255 B. C and was one of the first to document the full human anatomy at that time...

Half of the pseudo-science in the Quran or other holy scriptures are nothing but articles from old Greek pages more than a thousand years before Islam, Judaism or Christianity came into existence. The person who wrote the Quran should have given references for other peoples work

 

[waraich66]

Three weeks ago , Iranian atheist converted from shia islam asked me where is your Allah , why we can not see Allah?, then i replied him , do you have wisdom , he said yes , then show me , he had no answer ?

Allah can not be seen by human eye , but Allah can live in heart of momin.

 

[waraich66]

Half of the pseudo-science in the Quran or other holy scriptures are nothing but articles from old Greek pages more than a thousand years before Islam, Judaism or Christianity came into existance

Who told you?

 

[Bang Galore]

From the Mahapurana expounded by Jinasena (9th century Jain work)

No single being has the skill to make this world -
how can immaterial god make the material world?...
If god is ever perfect and complete,
how could the will to create have arisen in him?
If, on the other hand, he is not perfect
he could no more create the universe than a potter could...
If you say he created to no purpose,
because it his his nature to do so, then god is pointless.
If he created in some kind of sport,
it was the sport of a foolish child, leading to trouble ...
If he created out of love for living things and need for them,
why did he not make creation wholly blissful ?...
If he were transcendent he would not create,
for then he would be free;
Nor if involved in transmigration,
for then he would not be almighty ...
And god commits great sin in slaying the children
whom he himself created.
If you say he slays only to destroy evil beings,
why did he create such beings in the first place ?...
Uncreated and indestructible, the world endures
under the compulsion of its own nature ...

 

[qsaark]

Half of the pseudo-science in the Quran or other holy scriptures are nothing but articles from old Greek pages more than a thousand years before Islam, Judaism or Christianity came into existance

Please post those 'old Greek pages' or appropriate references that you claim to be included in Quran. I never knew that Muhammed (PBUH) committed this kind of plagiarism. My understanding is he (Muhammed) was not literate, and Macca was nothing like a city of Scholars. Where did Muhammed get his hands on the Greek material to include in Quran?

I am a career Scientist and have met dozens of prominent Biologists but never once I heard from them or read in the literature that Greeks had made these kind of strides and leaps in Anatomy.

As much as I know, the famous Greek physician Aelius Galenus (Galen of Pergamum) had come up with a theory of 'humours' and Aristotle with the theory of the' four classical elements' arguing that a balance of these 'imaginary' elements are the key to health and a natural body-temperature. Their theories were finally refuted by guess who? Muhammad ibn Zakarīya Rāzi in the 10th century in his book "Doubts about Galen". Razi was the first physician/scientist to prove this theory wrong using experiments that are acceptable even today.

 

[Hyde]

Please post those 'old Greek pages' or appropriate references that you claim to be included in Quran. I never knew that Muhammed (PBUH) committed this kind of plagiarism. My understanding is he (Muhammed) was not literate, and Macca was nothing like a city of Scholars. Where did Muhammed get his hands on the Greek material to include in Quran?

well said qsaark bhai,

i didn't even understand he just claimed something that even Anti-Islam or Christians never dared to claim Genius i must say!

Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W never went to school and he copied the scripture from Greek pages I laughed so badly that i have started coughing

 

[waraich66]

well said qsaark bhai,

i didn't even understand he just claimed something that even Anti-Islam or Christians never dared to claim Genius i must say!

Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W never went to school and he copied the scripture from Greek pages I laughed so badly that i have started coughing

Well said , most non sense post ever seen

 

[DaRk WaVe]

EmO there is no harm in free thinking and i do agree with your point but please do find the definition of Free Thinkers and rebellious peoples.

By making silly jokes on God you are harming nobody but yourself

that was not a joke that was a serious question first of all sparkling has already debunked the pseudo scientific claims & secondly i just said that if God can split moons into two halves then he can certainly get it one piece with perfection

i seriously find no difference between those TTP talibans and you as they are extremists in spreading strict Islam by crossing the boundaries of Islam and you are extremist in losing the values of Islam and challenging the existance of god again and again. Both of you claims to be Muslims for some reasons but keep raping the limitations created by Allah. By doing this trust me it is neither going to benefit this religion nor damage its foundations as the religion has already been perfected during the time of Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.

The perfection in the roles & deeds of Muslims s very clear to everyone

Why cant you just take rest for a while? everytime i come i see nothing but some silly posts of so-called respective members of this forum in this Holy thread.

And do not dare to mind as i also hold my right of free thinking

whats silly? depends on how you define silly & BTW if would have been offended by a few bigots then i must have not been posting here

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Its Religious anthropological War.

one can only guess what wonders would atheism bring .. !

Atheism has no place here on PDF, Mods close this thread .. Its utter BS

all those people who don't like this thread I have just one thing to say for them...

'don't Click here'

 

[qsaark]

all those people who don't like this thread I have just one thing to say for them...

'don't Click here'

This is an open forum hence anybody is entitled to click anywhere. If you have a privilege to post, others have as much privilege to argue if they find something arguable with your post. I think this is a fair game and totally acceptable in a free, liberal and democratic environment, something you yourself value most.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

This is an open forum hence anybody is entitled to click anywhere. If you have a privilege to post, others have as much privilege to argue if they find something arguable with your post. I think this is a fair game and totally acceptable in a free, liberal and democratic environment, something you yourself value most.

then they must not point out things like 'atheists & atheism has no place in PDF' & blah blah, if this thread is against Forum Rules Mods can decide what to do with it

 

[qsaark]

'atheists have no place in PDF'

If it is said, it is condemnable. You have the right to report.