What's Wrong with Pakistan? --BY ROBERT D. KAPLAN

[Solomon2]

Pakistan is a lot of things, including a hellhole and the poster child for terrible governance by the most ignorant of duffers, this is UNDENIABLE - for those of us who wish to develop a larger picture, a deeper understanding, challenge and refining of our understanding and therefore ever greater unease over our ignorance, is a constant.

This is the internet age. There are sources that can help you out of ignorance by cross-checking textbook claims with sources that have no discernible motivation to lie. That's why I recommend the U.S. State Department's declassified Foreign Relations of the United States: South Asia series to Pakistani readers.

 

[muse]

This is the internet age. There are sources that can help you out of ignorance by cross-checking textbook claims with sources that have no discernible motivation to lie. That's why I recommend the U.S. State Department's declassified Foreign Relations of the United States: South Asia series to Pakistani readers.

Certainly these can help us better apprehend the "declassified"

 

[illusion8]

trade routes through Pakistan are not just roads.

It is part of the overall "package" and overall vision about the future of the region.

Yeah, keep confusing trade with geopolitics and all our assorted problems into one holy mess and we are not getting anywhere. Until the loonies learn to tackle each issue on its merits we'll keep going around in circles.

 

[Solomon2]

Certainly these can help us better apprehend the "declassified"

It will help you uncover the "big lies" crooked politicians and generals exploited Pakistanis with.

Whether your fellow Pakistanis will appreciate that the truth is something to be acted upon rather than lies is the question in my mind. Pakistani history students, according to history profs like Bernard Lewis who have written about them, are most keen to write stuff that favors the narrative they are trying to prove, rather than test and re-craft it in consideration of the preponderance of good evidence. This cannot be but a reflection of the prevailing values in Pakistani society.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Spot on - but why is this the case? Could it be that we have given them reason to think in this way --- look, Indians may not admit on this forum, but they are convinced that Pakistan is simply dead, it's just that it will take a couple of decades for the certificate to come through and Indians will then pick up pieces on their terms - so they do not see the need to cooperate, to resuscitate what they think is dead - Now what has persuaded Indians that this is the case, yes of course, the Pak Army has, what with their idiot calculation and it's unwillingness to perceive national security beyond it's ideological bounds, a ideological framework that has now failed over and over and over again.

The Indian is persuaded that there is one one there to work with anyway - What will enable them to re-think the issue? The Americans has advised them to reconsider, but they are pretty sure that they have it right.

There is a faction that thinks so, and there is a faction that hopes that Pakistan will survive, not as a toxic sink, but as a fair, well-governed country, whose citizens are fed, clothed and housed, who have no bitterness or hate driving them to kill each other and all others in neighbouring countries, strong enough to maintain itself, not so strong that it is a threat to peace.

One of them is overwhelmingly in the minority, as are their interlocutors, the liberals in Pakistani society.

 

[illusion8]

This post is a $tupid sign of ignorance.

A valley is only named after the biggest river (and not its tributaries and supporting rivers).

Didn't expect this from an otherwise educated Indian.

That poster happens to be a Pakistani.

 

[Bang Galore]

Lesson from the history is that GVC and IVC interests are linked.

GVC should closely work with IVC for trade routes and not do the following:

1. Work furiously to work around IVC

Then epic fail

2. Then say booo hooo hooo , I can't go to central Asian states because IVC won't let me.

This is all childish.

Modern states should have much more somber and serious way of doing things.



Indian posters do not realize that Pakistan and India can work together to extend their mutual influence on the world.


However, our $tupid historical baggage stops us from doing so.


peace

Err....which world do you live in? It is not that Indians don't realise that working with Pakistan is infinitely better than fighting with Pakistan. The problem is this; Pakistan's asking price for friendship is far too high ---Kashmir etc... If you have noticed, it is India that brings in the issues of people to people contact, visa relaxations , more emphasis on trade etc. The Pakistani response is the predictable one - settle core disputes & we will agree to trade, transit etc. What does one say to that? While both trade & transit would be welcome, it is of mutual benefit & is hardly going to get India to behave desperately for that. There is simply no way to work on that, so we look for alternatives to work around. India turns up to talk but has no illusion or interest in the outcome. Talk is what we will do when there is no outright hostility. Talk is not the means to an end, it is the end itself. Most Indians(me included) are very cynical when it comes to what can be achieved with Pakistan. Regardless of the potential that you allude to, we believe that the best we can do with Pakistan is to achieve a cold peace. A change in mindset is too much of an ask.

No one will be more pleased than I if we were somehow able to work together but we must deal with what we have, not what we wish we could have.

 

[Developereo]

I still stand by my original post..... "YAWN".... The only ones getting excited at this "revelation" are our friends next door, surprise, surprise!

Kaplan's whole treatise, once you strip away the psychobabble and historical overview, is that Pakistan is like Yugoslavia. In fact, he makes the equation explicit, and devotes much time to why Pakistan will eventually split into Punjab + Afghania + rest.

As you said, entirely predictable and nothing new.

 

[FaujHistorian]

..... The problem is this; Pakistan's asking price for friendship is far too high ---Kashmir etc....

So Indian is willing to hold hostage the whole subcontinent just because the "perceived" price is too high.

What kind of thinking is this?

Pakistan cannot saw off Kashmir and transfer it to Arabian Sea. this land is going to be here until it gets pushed up the Himalaya in few billion years.

Why so much emotional and thus $tupid talk?

Don't you even know that

Kashmir is for Kashmiris, how come Indians have to put a price tag on it?

See this is the blind followership I point out all the time.

It will help you uncover the "big lies" crooked politicians and generals exploited Pakistanis with.

You think Pakistanis are just robots? computers to be programed by generals?

The situation as they say is much more complicated than that.

Please see Kaplan's essay and let me know what you think about that.

 

[Cherokee]

So Indian is willing to hold hostage the whole subcontinent just because the "perceived" price is too high.

What kind of thinking is this?

Pakistan cannot saw off Kashmir and transfer it to Arabian Sea. this land is going to be here until it gets pushed up the Himalaya in few billion years.

Why so much emotional and thus $tupid talk?

Don't you even know that

Kashmir is for Kashmiris, how come Indians have to put a price tag on it?

See this is the blind followership I point out all the time.

It is simple . You cannot take Kashmir and we will not give you Kashmir . A very curios stalemate . Either the drum of kashmir can be beat up every now and than in Pakistan e.g. as mentioned in Another thread "Shahedoon ke khoon se Pak hoga Kashmir" or Pakistan can pick itself up and move towards resolution .

India has no issues if LAC is converted in LOC . Nothing else is satisfactory . And in Geo politics , Territory belongs to one who controls it leaving all the emotional gibberish aside , otherwise Tibet would have been with Tibetans , Xinjiang with uyghurs , chehenya and dagestan with chechens and Dagestanis , Kurdistan with Kurds instead of with Iraq , Iran and Turkey and bazillion such examples .

 

[illusion8]

So Indian is willing to hold hostage the whole subcontinent just because the "perceived" price is too high.

What kind of thinking is this?

Pakistan cannot saw off Kashmir and transfer it to Arabian Sea. this land is going to be here until it gets pushed up the Himalaya in few billion years.

Why so much emotional and thus $tupid talk?

Don't you even know that

Kashmir is for Kashmiris, how come Indians have to put a price tag on it?

See this is the blind followership I point out all the time.

Yeah, Pakistani logic at it finest,

Their nose doesn't lead them beyond Kashmir - this is what happens in all that wasted bilateral meetings at every level that Indian and Pakistani diplomats spend all that money and time on.

And, then they get up and ask why not talk of trade and transit with us - why go through Iran. The eternal quest to hold the entire region hostage to the resolution of only one issue is why nothing's going to happen.

It should be amply clear to a saner Pakistani that India will not budge on it, there are other offers on the table which can be pushed forward - but then the eternal fear of losing out on bargaining chips comes in.

 

[Bang Galore]

So Indian is willing to hold hostage the whole subcontinent just because the "perceived" price is too high.

What kind of thinking is this?

Pakistan cannot saw off Kashmir and transfer it to Arabian Sea. this land is going to be here until it gets pushed up the Himalaya in few billion years.

Why so much emotional and thus $tupid talk?

Don't you even know that

Kashmir is for Kashmiris, how come Indians have to put a price tag on it?

See this is the blind followership I point out all the time.

Not blind followership(?), just realism. We do not need you as much as you think we do. You go on talking about the GVC & IVC, you live in the wrong time. India is no longer being driven by GVC but by civilisations (even if they are connected philosophically to the GVC) further down. Even the GVC is trying to work with those rather than bother about some distant(of mind, even if not of geography) IVC...... Maybe once you understand what it is that drives India now, you will realise the merit in my stance.

Kashmir is going nowhere, not if we can help it. Anyone imagining that India will buy peace by giving up Kashmir (in whatever form) is simply deluding themselves. There will be no change of borders. If that is Pakistan's price for good relations, then I'm afraid, it is a price that won't ever be paid.

 

[airmarshal]

It will help you uncover the "big lies" crooked politicians and generals exploited Pakistanis with.

Whether your fellow Pakistanis will appreciate that the truth is something to be acted upon rather than lies is the question in my mind. Pakistani history students, according to history profs like Bernard Lewis who have written about them, are most keen to write stuff that favors the narrative they are trying to prove, rather than test and re-craft it in consideration of the preponderance of good evidence. This cannot be but a reflection of the prevailing values in Pakistani society.

American teaching us truth and followers of Israel telling us about 'lies'. This is very interesting.

Not blind followership(?), just realism. We do not need you as much as you think we do. You go on talking about the GVC & IVC, you live in the wrong time. India is no longer being driven by GVC but by civilisations (even if they are connected philosophically to the GVC) further down. Even the GVC is trying to work with those rather than bother about some distant(of mind, even if not of geography) IVC...... Maybe once you understand what it is that drives India now, you will realise the merit in my stance.

Kashmir is going nowhere, not if we can help it. Anyone imagining that India will buy peace by giving up Kashmir (in whatever form) is simply deluding themselves. There will be no change of borders. If that is Pakistan's price for good relations, then I'm afraid, it is a price that won't ever be paid.

This status quo you are enjoying in Kashmir is short lived.

Kashmiris dont want to live with you. So they will find their way out. I will appreciate if Pakistan helps. With or without Pakistan, Kashmir is not going to stay in Indian union. You cant forcefully occupy people and then claim they are yours.

Kashmir never was and never will be part of India.

 

[Contrarian]

Lesson from the history is that GVC and IVC interests are linked.

GVC should closely work with IVC for trade routes and not do the following:

1. Work furiously to work around IVC

Then epic fail

2. Then say booo hooo hooo , I can't go to central Asian states because IVC won't let me.

This is all childish.

Modern states should have much more somber and serious way of doing things.



Indian posters do not realize that Pakistan and India can work together to extend their mutual influence on the world.


However, our $tupid historical baggage stops us from doing so.


peace

Spot on - but why is this the case? Could it be that we have given them reason to think in this way --- look, Indians may not admit on this forum, but they are convinced that Pakistan is simply dead, it's just that it will take a couple of decades for the certificate to come through and Indians will then pick up pieces on their terms - so they do not see the need to cooperate, to resuscitate what they think is dead - Now what has persuaded Indians that this is the case, yes of course, the Pak Army has, what with their idiot calculation and it's unwillingness to perceive national security beyond it's ideological bounds, a ideological framework that has now failed over and over and over again.

The Indian is persuaded that there is one one there to work with anyway - What will enable them to re-think the issue? The Americans has advised them to reconsider, but they are pretty sure that they have it right.

Why is there a need to cooperate with Pakistan. Why is there a need to compromise for Pakistan ?

Let me give an example. Why would India withdraw from siachen for Pakistan?
What does Pakistan offer in return for cooperation?

Vague notions of trade?

Pakistanis have been stupid enough to keep asking for core issues to be resolved before moving on other issues like trade deals.
Now the question is why would India resolve Kashmir ? Just to get trade with Pakistan or Tajikistan?

What incentive does Pakistan offer when India already owns the majority of Kashmir. What Pakistanis don't understand is that they have nothing to offer beside trade routes and those trade routes are not as important. When India has most of the cards why should India settle?

In any deal both sides compromise..what do we see Pakistan offering and compromising ?
Nothing. The only answer to the question of why should India compromise is that 'there will be peace and trade'. No one elucidates what Pakistan will compromise? Pakistanis assume that they will ask for anything and get it without giving anything in return or give pitiful things like trade route to Afghanistan.

And in return we see Pakistan as a nation that will ultimately choke itself in the name of Islam. The seeds were sowed long back, they are starting to bear fruit. As a state Pakistan has achieved its peak and is now falling off, India on the other hand is only starting out, what compelling reason would India have to settle?

 

[Bang Galore]

This status quo you are enjoying in Kashmir is short lived.

Kashmiris dont want to live with you. So they will find their way out. I will appreciate if Pakistan helps. With or without Pakistan, Kashmir is not going to stay in Indian union. You cant forcefully occupy people and then claim they are yours.

Kashmir never was and never will be part of India.

Irrelevant to the point I was making. That was simply about India voluntarily offering Kashmir as a price for peace. I said that we aren't interested in buying that at the price being quoted.

As for the standard spiel, we have heard it before and I'm sure we will hear it again. Doesn't bother us.