Whats Holding Pakistan Together?

[Cherokee]

What is holding Pakistan Together ??

The same thing which is breaking Pakistan .

 

[VCheng]

If we took pride in our extended history and connected to it, most definately.

That is a mighty big and tenuous "if" given the present situation.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Patriotism and Nationalism should be the binding force in a nation-state.

In geopolitical terms, I would compare the idea of a nation-state to the idea of a family.

One should be loyal to their family, because they were born into that family. Similarly, one should be loyal to their nation-state, because they were born into that nation-state.

Being loyal means furthering the interests of your nation and its people.

Importantly, the government also has a strong duty to further the interests of the nation. If a government is selling out the interests of its nation in favor of foreign powers, they are traitors.

 

[fatman17]

Ayaz Amir is a prominent Pakistani journalist, columnist and a senior politician . He was previously elected a Member of National Assembly representing Chakwal in 2008 as a candidate of Pakistan Muslim League (Nawaz), he resigned from the party on 19 April 2013 after he was refused a ticket for the National Assembly for the 2013 general elections.

Ayaz Amir was a captain in Pakistan Army who resigned or released his commission. His columns are critical of the Pakistan army's role in politics throughout the history of the country.

nothing wrong with that. he has the courage to at least speak the truth or lay down whats ails us. he hasnt given up on Pakistan and with due respect to some who state otherwise, the poor pakistani is more passionate about Pakistan than the elites of this country. of course we all want to live in peace, ensure that there is a future for the children of our country. appeasement of the militants / fundamentalists has to stop. they need to feel the iron-fist of the state. they need to be eliminated with extreme prejudice and to hell with the human rights groups - what about the human rights of all the fallen pakistanis (civilian and uniformed) at the hands of the inhumane butchers. this is not the islam i was raised as a kid. islam is a religion of peace, its about a way of life one can live, not the convoluted version of these blinkered idiots. for how long is the govt going to watch the tail wagging the dog. if the army could sweep them out of swat, they can do the same in NWA or any other area of FATA. it requires a political will, support of the media (who unfortunately love the militants - hamid mir, ansar abassi and co) and most importantly the people of our country. time is running out!

 

[INDIC]

The common religion and perception of threat from India.

 

[third eye]

@third eye

1. Role of religion is a generality. The specifics of Pakistanis are determined by our geopolitical circumstances. The centrality of river Indus is a suppressed theme and your dismissal of it seems to be pointed in the same direction. Too bad. You asserted that religion alone can not keep a nation together and that there has to be something more. Well there you go. Our geography is what makes us who we are. It is no accident that Indus basin is predominantly Muslim. There are reasons for it being so.

2. Enmity with India or the strength of PA as an institution is a function of particular views of Muslim identity. These issues can not be assumed to be over-riding reasons for keeping Pakistan together. That is just faulty logic IMHO. For example, given better relations with India, we do not have to perpetuate enmity. That would be pointless. Too much has happened over past decades and I do not really see Pakistanis wanting to be Indians. So, I hope you can see that 'enmity with India' is actually a peripheral issue and not the central one. Similarly, given development of institutions, role of PA would infact be gradually limited. With this anticipated gradual loss of PA influence, Pakistan shall not cease to exist.

I hope you can see that any thesis that places existence of Pakistan at the mercy of enmity or India or preponderance of PA influence is faulty. I could go on, but I hope I have clarified my position enough that you get a general picture, or at least understand my perspective.

3. Pakistan's current problems are attributable to our internal contradictions. Pakistan is still a young country and there are some issues that have not been effectively addressed. We can no longer brush them aside. It is a rite of passage for us and there are no short cuts.

4. If one takes Islam out of the equation, then we are left with a diffuse geographic reality. River Indus would not suffice as a unifying force by itself. And diffused commonalities I alluded to in my earlier post would not overcome ethnicity issues. I may wish for a 'Greater Punjab', a Sindhi might wish for 'Sindhu Desh', a Baluch might strive to establish 'Greater Baluchistan', and a Pakhtoon might want to establish 'Greater Pakhtoonistan'. It would take a at least a century or more for Pakistani identity to supercede all others. And even then, in case you have noticed, Pakistan's borders are not defined by any unique geographic feature.

Thank you, I appreciate the time you have spent in making this detailed reply. My POV are as follows.

At the outset, its your country and you ( Pakistanis) have an unquestionable right to run your nation the way you deem fit . No one has a right to question it. If you are happy & comfortable- its ok.

One issue which appears to an outsider as dichotomous is putting religion before country. No that one is less than the other but Islam is all over the world and shall stay forever , Pakistan is only where it is. While Islam is spreading Pakistan has diminished. Yet the need to shift focus on the nation does seem important to most. A stable Pakistan can do more for Islam than an unstable one.

Now why would an outsider worry on what comes first in Pakiatan ? The reason is that when Pakistanis kept the nation first till the 70's the nation, the region & the world was relatively stable. This does not hold good now.What happens or does not happen in Pak impacts the region & as OBL showed - the world too.

Next , how is Pakistan still a young country ? When does a nation become old or mature ?

65 years is a very long time, BD has showed remarkable maturity & resilience in getting their basics right. SL is a ' younger' country, it went through hell but has pulled out of it . Why - because it had the basic national institutions in place. One of these nations is not Islamic , both of them have put nation first.

Sure , Pak has problems and is making efforts to rectify them. But what I read here, every attempt at rectification is derided.

At regards Para 4 above, I think you like most Pakistanis are scared or unsure of what would happen if Islam were not the unifying force. Look at it like this .. E Pak was as Islamic as W Pak, yet it pulled away. Baluchistan is as Islamic as Punjab, Sind , KPK yet there are issues. The common thread that runs all along is governance, empowering of people & development.
Gone are the days when religion could be used as the single glue that held people together. They want more ( besides not in lieu of religion).

Examples exist of Malaysia & Indonesia who have done a good job keeping both together. Are Muslims in these countries & in India any less Islamic that those in Pakistan ? The answer is No.

It does not need a unique geographical feature to define a nation.

My views, once again I thank you for your POV.

 

[INDIC]

Fear of India is least of our concerns, most of our history is about how to take full Kashmir back instead half we got in 1948. I doubt Pakistanis were in fear of India when they occupied Kargil 16 years ago. No Pakistani loss sleep over India's invasion, but we most keep minimum defence to protect our selfs just in case which is normal.

The perception was since Pakistan has atom bomb, India won't retaliate. Fear of India is the main reason that Army emerged as the most powerful institution in Pakistan often branded as "saviour of Pakistan". Even with this atom bomb, threat from India still haunts Pakistanis.

 

[SHAMK9]

perception of threat from India.

Really? obsessed much?

 

[SQ8]

No need. You know it already... or at least can guess. Hard to put in words, especially on PDF.

That is a mystery, one thing that you cannot state and yet state? Are we talking a religious factor here.. some unforseen power of god?

 

[Umair Nawaz]

I agree patience is a virtue but here its taking longer than most people. Perhaps it will take so long for you to tell that people will decide not to be Pakistanis anymore.. then when you do want to tell, you will have no Pakistanis to tell it to. That will be really disappointing for you.


I pray thee.. do tell.

Lets say its a test of our patience.Its some sort of punishment of what we have been doing since our existence in this region.
There is a reason why we r still together when countries like Yugoslavia fell apart in less time frame. and its 12 years still we r together. And why r we still together is something nobody knows rather like everybody even yr also confused in telling ''what exactly is keeping us''.

Its not that simple and cozy as u think it is. We r together and thats what matters the most in this time of our history. Now if u ask me we r not that anymore that we used to be our role has been very positive largely in the region and the best thing we have done is that we have tried to make peace or some sort of alliance in the region which is the way to go. Even cant u see our Corps Commander of RWP also says that our internal threat is our greater enemy then our neighbors?

Think abt it in a broader prospective our overall geopolitical position has taken a 180 degree shift in the past decade. This will guarantee our survival as of now.

 

[SQ8]

Lets say its a test of our patience.Its some sort of punishment of what we have been doing since our existence in this region.
There is a reason why we r still together when countries like Yugoslavia fell apart in less time frame. and its 12 years still we r together. And why r we still together is something nobody knows rather like everybody even yr also confused in telling ''what exactly is keeping us''.

Its not that simple and cozy as u think it is. We r together and thats what matters the most in this time of our history. Now if u ask me we r not that anymore that we used to be our role has been very positive largely in the region and the best thing we have done is that we have tried to make peace or some sort of alliance in the region which is the way to go. Even cant u see our Corps Commander of RWP also says that our internal threat is our greater enemy then our neighbors?

Think abt it in a broader prospective our overall geopolitical position has taken a 180 degree shift in the past decade. This will guarantee our survival as of now.

But then again, if we consider that the forces keeping us together are infinite then it is a folly. To think that eventually our punishment will not lead to our dissolution is folly. After all, to think that Pakistan is some sort of infinite gift is folly. It is better to equate it with the She-Camel of Thamud ... it was a gift to its people, they did not take care of it.. destroyed it.. and that led to their eventual destruction.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

But then again, if we consider that the forces keeping us together are infinite then it is a folly. To think that eventually our punishment will not lead to our dissolution is folly. After all, to think that Pakistan is some sort of infinite gift is folly. It is better to equate it with the She-Camel of Thamud ... it was a gift to its people, they did not take care of it.. destroyed it.. and that led to their eventual destruction.

im just trying to emphasis on our change in stance thats all. It doesnt mean thats the core reason which will keep or is keeping us together that thing no body will ever know but yes for our survival our armed forces r the key and their stance will play its role. In this WOT to finally save Pak from it.

But saving from a threat and thriving it towards success r two different things miles apart. Both require different strategies and different types of people to do the job. But be patient we r going nowhere.

 

[SQ8]

im just trying to emphasis on our change in stance thats all. It doesnt mean thats the core reason which will keep or is keeping us together that thing no body will ever know but yes for our survival our armed forces r the key and their stance will play its role. In this WOT to finally save Pak from it.

But saving from a threat and thriving it towards success r two different things miles apart. Both require different strategies and different types of people to do the job. But be patient we r going nowhere.

The emphasis in our change in stance is welcome, but is it the only thing that will suffice? A change in the stance of the state is not a change in the stance, the ideology(or rather the cohesive lack of it) in the people. Will that change in stance of the state be enough? Especially when right now the change in stance is being done apologetically and rather half heartedly.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

The emphasis in our change in stance is welcome, but is it the only thing that will suffice? A change in the stance of the state is not a change in the stance, the ideology(or rather the cohesive lack of it) in the people. Will that change in stance of the state be enough? Especially when right now the change in stance is being done apologetically and rather half heartedly.

People right now r just desperate dont loose heart on them. People just follow what their leaders do. Yes as of now our civilian leaders r still showing a little uncuth behavior but as long as Armed forces remain determined we should be just fine as of now.

But yes civilian leaders r problem in a long run but we do have a solution for them too but let the right time come.

Be patient and dont loose faith.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Indians tickle us, and we write in ********. And the ******** are powerful, especially the ones that have origins in Kashmir.

Kyoon @Armstrong ?

to be fair there were also ******** like siachen, 1971 etc.....