What twin engine Jet Fighter Suits PAF Doctrine?

[Bharat_Bhakt]

best option for PAF is to get a pair of 15K litre CFT for JF-17 and thats it .

 

[AliWaqar]

sir g behtaer yeahi hai k chup kar jayn jo hoga behter hoga filhal jf17 sy he sab kam chalna hoga till2019

 

[gau8av]

what is the range of a cft and eft equipped F-16 ?

 

[Blue Marlin]

Need stealth and slightly longer range? You might be able to hit 2 birds with 1 stone with the under development j31. The question is how much range does it have and development time. If you can get a stealth with greater range than the f16 then it should be pursued. Instead of having 2sq of say su35 and 2sq of 5th gen why dont have 4sq of 5th gen with a common rd93?

In the future it will not only be a battle of fighters with longer loiter time but the generation gap caused by introduction of 5th gen in south east asia will be be a morale booster over the enemy. Does paf have the money to operate 4 different type of platforms? Jft, f16s, double engine, fifth gen?

I think paf should ditch a 4+ gen double engine fighter in favour of fifth gen fighter with longer range than the f16. If this target cant be met in the next decade, then we will be in a doldrum and will have to look for alternatives.

In that case it will be toss between typoon [saudia operates it] and su series [china operates it]. What would be ideal if fifth gen doesnt get inducted in the next decade would be a fighter which is operated by friendly countries from where we can get spares/training

you read my post, but did not mention the typhoon as it is extreamly expensive. but a mixture of new and second hand typhoons would be a very good option this would also pave the way for our government to procure the tranch 3b typhoon which pakistan can procure

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Well if I can add then there are two things PAF and PN must consider for a change in policies regarding a monumental shift of opex and capex finances towards a fleet of twin engined bird.

First, if the need is immediate then its 4.5 gen birds that are available for induction in max 5 years time frame for two squadrons approx. This enables the initial setup, planning and the basic opex-capex rolling. Also this acquisition will give the first hand experience of twin engined legs.
In that sense it's either JH7B or Su35. Considering the naval aspect, JH7B for PN solves the interim need effectively.

Second aspect is the need of investment via which you can get a codeveloped or jointly developed jet. That route allows certain tech to flow down to your biggest fleet which is going to be JF17s. This JV route at present in beginning stage and taking say a 10year plus route for full fledged induction should be the primary goal for PAF. Since its a longer timeline it would make sense to consider a 5th gen bird in approx 3-5sqds with planned Induction from say 10 years from now. The option available can be Turkey 5th gen program. If outright buy is desired then consideration should be J31 and some negotiations to get some tech from 5th gen birds to fit to JF 17 program ( a case similar to Su35 stealth version with some PAKFA tech)

This way PAF can be strengthened with 5tg gen birds over time and PN can target immediate twin engined jets

I did not consider Su35 for PN primarily bcz with say two squadrons the capex opex cost for a flanker may prove to be counter productive. We are all aware that life cycle cost for a flanker is much higher as compared to a western jet. Now jets of China is in between.. So you have to choose wisely for PN needs..

 

[NIA]

F-15 is king of Air battles and fully capable of negotiating these threats. Once air is clear of ASW aircrafts, there is no stopping Pak Navy submarines to sink Indian ships.

.

To clear all ASW aircrafts of a carrier battle group..you need atleast numerical advantage over mig-29k squadron.
Not to forget..Latest IN ship have been gifted with Barak SAM systems to protect against aircraft/cruise missiles.Which will buy some time to scramble Mig-29k.

 

[Tameem]

Securing Modern, Twin Engine 4+ generation fighter aircraft is more of a strategic and political decision than anywhere technical or financial.

Pakistan, while in US camp technically, with a major non nato ally tag, enjoying scot free walk despite proliferation and usage of terror proxies issues, agreed in a regional alignment in which his position comes after India, denied any parity vis a vis our eastern neighbour in projecting any strategic weapons from US except only suitable for our credible minimum deterrence.

Therefore, we can't secure F18 or F15 from US ever unless they becomes too obsolete, our best bet is one and only F16 bcz its falls in the category of credible minimum deterrence.

Pakistan cannot moves towards SU35, unless its politically and strategically agrees to forego its current position in US camp once and for all, that means burning of of all ships. Bcz US can't allow a strategic weapon like SU35 comes in Pakistani Airspace and jeopardize its future agenda for the region and Pakistan on its hand can't thinks to anger USA on its own.

Therefore, the announcement from our Air Chief Sohail Aman is very straight forwards and to the point to US. Provides us by yourself and as per the rules of engagement the minimum credible deterrence and that is a New, latest, AESA powered F16V or F16 Block61 bcz the entry of French made RAFALE in IAF is going destabilize the whole equation to the core. If we are denied our agreed and basic requirements then its means we are not welcome in your camp anymore and then its not we but you pushing us towards fully embracing Sino-Russian camp by leaving us no choice in hands.

I think, US cannot affords to loose Pakistan and its geography and we will manage to secure F16V or F16 Block 61 with AESA if not too early than somewhat later but sure we will, SU35 acquisition will be postponed.

 

[EAK]

My Vote..

 

[rockstar08]

What people here failed to understand , that relying just on J-31 can turn out to be a disaster for PAF like in 90's ...
if J-31 failed to meet our requirements than by 2020 what we will have in our inventory ?

90-100 F-16's ..
200-250 Blk 3 JF's
and nothing more
Mirage and F-7's will be retired ..

do we have a alternative ? PAF is actually looking for Alternative .. ? NO ..
if PAF did not buy or at least plan to buy any 4.5+ Gen Fighter at least 2 Sqs of it , than we will have a weak Airforce , that can be put par with Third world country's forces ..Forget about about have Air dominance of Pakistan ..

our Options are limited but it seems PAF is too relaxed and already assumed that there wont be any War with India in near future ... their Planning and Forecasting is worse than sethaiya Company ..

F-15's or F-18 will be best bet for Pakistan . 2 sqs ( 36 ) units will make huge difference .. 1 sqs can entirely be dedicated for Naval Strike with 1-2 JF sqs at back up .. but US wont sell 15's and 18's to PAF because of multiple reasons ..

so what can be our next Option ? J-11 ? or Su-35 ? its again hard but not impossible
but at least PAF need to create a different strategy or new Doctrines .. or else our Air Space will be at " Allah wastay "

@MastanKhan

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

Uncle SAM not giving F-18's to PAF lest it change the "power balance" of the region.

Power balance is already not stable , we are buying these jets to make the power balance much stabler . As we can counter the SU-30s

 

[Oldman1]

I'm sure Russia be eager to sell the newest Su35s or Mig 35s. They need customers badly.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Securing Modern, Twin Engine 4+ generation fighter aircraft is more of a strategic and political decision than anywhere technical or financial.
.

Agreed

Pakistan, while in US camp technically, with a major non nato ally tag, enjoying scot free walk despite proliferation and usage of terror proxies issues, agreed in a regional alignment in which his position comes after India, denied any parity vis a vis our eastern neighbour in projecting any strategic weapons from US except only suitable for our credible minimum deterrence.
.

true that, since India is more usable pawn in reference to outsourcing the far eastern security and keeping China in check.

Therefore, we can't secure F18 or F15 from US ever unless they becomes too obsolete, our best bet is one and only F16 bcz its falls in the category of credible minimum deterrence.
.

I never mentioned F-15 because its expensive and only sold out to 4 other countries (KSA, Israel, North Korea & Japan)
F-18 older blocks are mentioned for the sake of giving space for choice in the discussion..

Pakistan cannot moves towards SU35, unless its politically and strategically agrees to forego its current position in US camp once and for all, that means burning of of all ships. Bcz US can't allow a strategic weapon like SU35 comes in Pakistani Airspace and jeopardize its future agenda for the region and Pakistan on its hand can't thinks to anger USA on its own.

I think Su35 issue is more to do with Indian and Russian ties than the Pak American ties. Russians know well the value and reality of our ties with Americans, they are more like rent a partner on a short lease.

discussion is strictly on twin engine fighters so other jets are kept out of discussion. F-16s already have their own dedicated threads.

 

[Silicon0000]

For now Stick with JF 17 and for future go for J31 & TFX. Rest is just waste of resource and item of peace. In war only that can help which you can build and maintain yourself or have 100% reliable supply line. rest is just toys of peace time.

Pakistan force is made for defending home land and fighter should be bought keeping that in mind along with support to our army and navy. They better be look for creating an area of denial for enemy within Pakistan borders. For attack its better to go for better missiles which can do the job easily.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I'm sure Russia be eager to sell the newest Su35s or Mig 35s. They need customers badly.

I might doubt that. specially considering their ties with India and having a much bigger business with it. they have a history of longer cordial relations.
we might get a 2nd tier tonned down versions of jets that dont cause much concern to Indians but that is that. I understand that I am contradicting my opening post that included Su-35 but that was only based on some comments from PAF veterans and some repeated news items.

 

[Khafee]

A very good thread. Very good points. So besides the financial issues why is the PAF NOT inducting 4.5Gen aircrafts? Because, like Mr. @Tameem said "is more of a strategic and political decision than anywhere technical or financial." Having said that, lets remove the "finance issue" from the equation, once and for all.

In the Pakistani context lets see ideally what capabilities should a twin engine fighter have:

1) Long Range / Loiter time
2) EW warfare capability
3) A payload < 4 tons
4) Buddy to Buddy Refueling
5) Easy to maintain, and an availability rate < 90%
6) Immune to Embargoes
7) Ability to change the current doctrine of "defensive" to "offensive"

Now lets look at what twin engine fighters are out there and a brief description of their handicaps.

In Random Order:
1) F-15 - The US declined Qatar, who happens to host the US's largest air command center in the ME. So Pakistan's chances are slim to none.

2) F-18 - The APG-79's reliability issues, lower hours of MTBF, and is heavily embargo prone.

3) Eurofighter - IF a certain level of manufacturing is outsourced to PAC, and the payment is spread over 10 years then why not. Example - Each aircraft has a price tag o US$130m including training and parts, multiply by 50 = US$6.5Bn. Now divide that US$6.5Bn by 10 = US$650mn / annum.

4) Rafale - France will sell to PK? A very long shot. Even if it does, in the event of hostilities, France could deny BOTH countries spares, there by restricting the fleets effectiveness. Secondly, fleet growth options could be seriously restricted. So best stay away from it.

5) Su-35 / Mig-35 - Can very well work if 100% Chinese support exists. Otherwise, reliability issues will plague PAF like the rest of the users.

6) J-11/ J-16 - Well if a donation was made to certain Russian top official, it can happen, with Russian engines!

7) JH-7B - For the price, and as a stop gap measure, no other aircraft gives you this capability. Bang for the Buck.

@Irfan Baloch @MastanKhan @Manticore @Sarge @Blue Marlin Your comments please?