What then Mr PM?

[jericho]

I think that many of the Pakistanis are not ready to digest this fact that Pakistan armed forces don't have the strength and resources, adequate enough for initiating any purposeful offensive venture against India. Defense is altogether a different thing and can be carried out with far less military strength, for which Pakistan is ready. In either case, a conventional war, would most probably end into a stalemate, as happened in 1965. Of course, our military leaders are well aware of this fact. Hence, the restraint.

I would consider IK to be successful if he manage to improve education standards, economy, reduce corruption, reform the various institutions, stabilize the environment, make the cities cleaner and greener, these are what I consider most important for a government, and the most difficult thing to do also. Iran with so many sanctions have higher GDP, higher GDP per capita (about 4 times more) and less debt, they also have higher literacy rate. Our literacy rate is embarrassing. I saw somewhere in these thread someone is appreciating NK, lol, there is no point arguing with people who think Nort Korea is a model for them. As far as defense goes, I agree with you, 27th Feb proved that we have capability to defend ourselves.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

I think that many of the Pakistanis are not ready to digest this fact that Pakistan armed forces don't have the strength and resources, adequate enough for initiating any purposeful offensive venture against India. Defense is altogether a different thing and can be carried out with far less military strength, for which Pakistan is ready. In either case, a conventional war, would most probably end into a stalemate, as happened in 1965. Of course, our military leaders are well aware of this fact. Hence, the restraint.

Man if I was asking for military strikes then thread would be addressed to Army Chief. I'm questioning civilian govt for next course of action and PTI runs and hide behind military by saying we cant afford offensive war. I understand that either i have missed it or it's the case that PM still didnt inform the nation about what will be next course of action after 27th ? And what if the results are not as expected then what ? Are they still going to bring Army in as Mr PM was asked on course of action on 1st joint session and his response was "Hamla kar do kya" so we get it. You can keep bringing military but the question we will be asking again and again and again from PM what will be his next course of action? Another year of lecturing while Kashmiri people die and we go about our merry way

 

[TNT]

Why do you smell like a cow piss drinker? I tell you what

Yup I have my mom who lives there my family that lives there just because We happen to be in US or any other country at the time doesn't mean that we dont live there. Come on man do better


Oh please this loser minded mentality for past 20 years cost Pakistan more than since it creation. You keep telling us about sabr and telling us to shut the F up but how are you going to shut Indians up? Answer dear friend? Do you think when Turkey and Israel conducts airstrike in Syria right under the nose of US and Russsia what logic are they using? Where is their saber? Just one example from many in the history. So keep lecturing your peace pigeon love affair but the fact is wether you want it or not it's War written crystal clear from here on wether you avoid it or not. It's not us who want it its India who wants war they challenged you and now they speak of your territory and threaten us with Nukes and you tell us to do Sabr. Bravo at your self destroying logic. Bravo
Since operation barbarossa is very much admired in our certain groups for study I just hope they also keep in mind Stalin's denial as an added bonus to the success of operation barbarossa because Stalin lived in denail right until the dawn of June 22nd 1941 that Hitler will attack until Hitler attacked.
We lived in denail that India will ever cross LOC or do any misadventure until balakot episode yes yes we responded but what if next time we dont get a chance to respond then what?
And I've heard it from Imran Khan's own mouth that he never imagined that Modi could go to such extent in Kashmir. So here is an example of living in denail.
I'm not a warmonger and why am I called one for asking one simple question which no one answered. What if UN and world didnt do anything then what will Pakistan's next step? Is it really that hard of a question? Or is it the case that our govt didnt think about this aspect? Come on man I'm not kid or anything I got a fukin brain that thinks and ask logical question and you wana call me names for asking a logical question.

See your are delusional, for the past 20 years our govts been sleeping and never uttered a word about kashmir on international forum. They never gave it importance and hence everyone forgot. Pakistan itself was created by diplomacy and not war, people like u also criticised Jinnah for doing diplomacy. How can u compare turkey and russia with Pakistan and syria with india? Hitler attacked but what hapenned? If india wants war then let them initiate it. Do you have any belief in Allah or his advice for muslims?????

Diplomacy for kashmir have just started a few months ago and already india is unnerved. They are using money n lobby to supress it. CNN, BBC are running kashmiri news, NY times and WP are writing about kashmir, could u have imagined that a uear ago??? Diplomacy is a slow process... See how india slowly damaged our reputation and image, we will do the same.
You ask me what if UN doesnt do anything, well we keep trying, we keep highlighting it. Human rights is the most vital issue, a rich country like saudi faces trouble for it. We will keep trying.
Now answer me what if military action fails?????
Will u then be able to face the dancing indians??? Do u want a new 71 embarrassment???? Emotional stuff never works on international level, slow n steady diplomacy is the only solution.

Man if I was asking for military strikes then thread would be addressed to Army Chief. I'm questioning civilian govt for next course of action and PTI runs and hide behind military by saying we cant afford offensive war. I understand that either i have missed it or it's the case that PM still didnt inform the nation about what will be next course of action after 27th ? And what if the results are not as expected then what ? Are they still going to bring Army in as Mr PM was asked on course of action on 1st joint session and his response was "Hamla kar do kya" so we get it. You can keep bringing military but the question we will be asking again and again and again from PM what will be his next course of action? Another year of lecturing while Kashmiri people die and we go about our merry way

Course of action is straight forward, keep highlighting kashmir on every forum. Internationalize the issue as much as possible. Diplomacy can take decades, Jinnah fought for decades. If not today, it will bear fruit tomorrow. We need to be consistent.

 

[Pakstallion]

I think that many of the Pakistanis are not ready to digest this fact that Pakistan armed forces don't have the strength and resources, adequate enough for initiating any purposeful offensive venture against India. Defense is altogether a different thing and can be carried out with far less military strength, for which Pakistan is ready. In either case, a conventional war, would most probably end into a stalemate, as happened in 1965. Of course, our military leaders are well aware of this fact. Hence, the restraint.

This may be reasonable and pragmatic. In my opinion, we should do more sabre rattling. These cowards in the Indian government immediately wanted to de-escalate when we handled them on Feb 27. They just imprisoned millions of people and are despised by the locals there and the state department is issuing a statement saying how good Imran Khan is because he told people not to cross LOC without a word on what India has done in Kashmir. The Indian foreign minister talks about taking over Azad kashmir eventually and not a word against this by the US? They should have said Calcutta, New Delhi, andaman islands and bombay would be smoking ruins if they dare try.

I understand what the government is trying to do. We are being responsible with our statements, hoping it gets us brownie points in the international arena. I would argue this has achieved nothing. The international community has come to the conclusion that just following along with India is the right thing to do. Even after the Indians attacked sovereign Pakistani territory in Feb, the world was silent, until we beat the crap out of the Indians and then the world suddenly stepped in.

The indians have a sense of Imran and Bajwa and what their moves will be. Its another reason against the extension Bajwa got - which harmed the Pakistan military but great for the US and India who know EXACTLY what to expect. I am a supporter of this government and truly believe it has the best chance for bringing real change in Pakistan and mashallah they are on their way to fixing the destruction caused by Zardari and Nawaz. I just hope there is a plan b when Imran Khans speech falls on deaf ears in the UN. I understand if we are weak right now, tell the people the Indians want a 1000 year war with us and we accept it. Every moment from now till the end we will be working against them, every location. Certainly Modi/Amit Shah/Doval see it that way.

If you think I am emotional about this, you are 100% right, I am emotional about this topic. I love Pakistan and hate the hindu supremacists in India.

 

[WarKa DaNG]

Cant we send our own supplies and medicines, I mean through Red Crescent, they are allowed arent they?

 

[SIPRA]

Man if I was asking for military strikes then thread would be addressed to Army Chief. I'm questioning civilian govt for next course of action and PTI runs and hide behind military by saying we cant afford offensive war. I understand that either i have missed it or it's the case that PM still didnt inform the nation about what will be next course of action after 27th ? And what if the results are not as expected then what ? Are they still going to bring Army in as Mr PM was asked on course of action on 1st joint session and his response was "Hamla kar do kya" so we get it. You can keep bringing military but the question we will be asking again and again and again from PM what will be his next course of action? Another year of lecturing while Kashmiri people die and we go about our merry way

I believe that IK and Pakistan Army, together, are doing whatever is possible, within the severe constraints and limitations of Pakistan, of which a large part is our own creation, during the past 72 years, mainly being our far low economic and technological development status. In these days, even the diplomatic support is also linked with these factors. Whether these efforts would be fruitful or not; I frankly don't know. If to some people, these endeavors appear to be less than the desired; then there is hardly any remedy for that. That much I am sure. As for the plight of Kashmiri people, that is a bitter fact and there does not appear to be any solution of that misery, in sight. Under such circumstances, I have no choice, but to pray and remain hopeful that something extraordinary happens and bring them out of their miseries.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

Now answer me what if military action fails?????

We will follow it up with another strike and then another. Since you bring Holy Quran into this discussion I didn't bring it you did so here is what holy Quran says
Chapter (4) sūrat l-nisāa (The Women)


Sahih International: And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"

Pickthall: How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and of the feeble among men and of the women and the children who are crying: Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Oh, give us from thy presence some protecting friend! Oh, give us from Thy presence some defender!
I dont see an order of diplomacy and raising it on international level verse here.
Now I'm sure you are also aware of Hadith that during last battle the first group of muslims will be destroyed and they will be best of martyrs and the second will face similar fate but the third will be the one which will ultimately achieve victory so even through this hidath the formula is clear according to hadith if first attack fails follow it up with another then another until you achieve victory and have faith in Almighty not Uniter Nations and world

 

[SIPRA]

This may be reasonable and pragmatic. In my opinion, we should do more sabre rattling. These cowards in the Indian government immediately wanted to de-escalate when we handled them on Feb 27. They just imprisoned millions of people and are despised by the locals there and the state department is issuing a statement saying how good Imran Khan is because he told people not to cross LOC without a word on what India has done in Kashmir. The Indian foreign minister talks about taking over Azad kashmir eventually and not a word against this by the US? They should have said Calcutta, New Delhi, andaman islands and bombay would be smoking ruins if they dare try.

I understand what the government is trying to do. We are being responsible with our statements, hoping it gets us brownie points in the international arena. I would argue this has achieved nothing. The international community has come to the conclusion that just following along with India is the right thing to do. Even after the Indians attacked sovereign Pakistani territory in Feb, the world was silent, until we beat the crap out of the Indians and then the world suddenly stepped in.

The indians have a sense of Imran and Bajwa and what their moves will be. Its another reason against the extension Bajwa got - which harmed the Pakistan military but great for the US and India who know EXACTLY what to expect. I am a supporter of this government and truly believe it has the best chance for bringing real change in Pakistan and mashallah they are on their way to fixing the destruction caused by Zardari and Nawaz. I just hope there is a plan b when Imran Khans speech falls on deaf ears in the UN. I understand if we are weak right now, tell the people the Indians want a 1000 year war with us and we accept it. Every moment from now till the end we will be working against them, every location. Certainly Modi/Amit Shah/Doval see it that way.

If you think I am emotional about this, you are 100% right, I am emotional about this topic. I love Pakistan and hate the hindu supremacists in India.

Thanks for responding. I have a strong inkling that something extraordinary is going to happen in the coming time, not very far off, possibly, which will inadvertently break the current stalemate and force both India and Pakistan, on a far more aggressive posture. I am currently awaiting for that happening. Such things have happened in history of nations and then have changed the course of history.

 

[The Eagle]

Before going for any forceful action, we have to lay a proper ground having lot of enemies out there merely waiting for us to commit a single mistake. Let the General Assembly session in UN be held and then we can move to our next step. Do not forget that once the war is parked, there is no stopping hence, it is easy to call for shooting without realizing the risk to many other lives. You have responsibility of billions of lives on your hand and wouldn't make a decision in haste rather make them everyone out there realize our position thus, none will be blaming us.

Do we all even consider the threats we have in-case if we go to war without proper grounds? How come we ignore the very fact that hyenas are merely waiting for us to make a wrong move? This is not about India alone and only a naive mind will think so. We have more than one enemy sitting next to us either in West or East. Instead of acting like Saddam or Qaddafi by issuing threats, we have to work with our plans throughout the way to the independence of Kashmir.

 

[SIPRA]

Cant we send our own supplies and medicines, I mean through Red Crescent, they are allowed arent they?

They are also slaves of the powerful countries.

 

[TNT]

We will follow it up with another strike and then another. Since you bring Holy Quran into this discussion I didn't bring it you did so here is what holy Quran says
Chapter (4) sūrat l-nisāa (The Women)


Sahih International: And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"

Pickthall: How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and of the feeble among men and of the women and the children who are crying: Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Oh, give us from thy presence some protecting friend! Oh, give us from Thy presence some defender!
I dont see an order of diplomacy and raising it on international level verse here.
Now I'm sure you are also aware of Hadith that during last battle the first group of muslims will be destroyed and they will be best of martyrs and the second will face similar fate but the third will be the one which will ultimately achieve victory so even through this hidath the formula is clear according to hadith if first attack fails follow it up with another then another until you achieve victory and have faith in Almighty not Uniter Nations and world

So u take all that in black and white. You think anything will be left to attack again after first failure?? Ppl like u neither know Islam nor diplomacy. Study the life of Prophet SAW and ull find diplomacy. How peace treaty was done with jews?? Umar RA the great warrior once said i wish there was a sea of fire between us and persians so we could live in peace. Islam always strives for peace. But when war is brought upon u even after all ur efforts for peace, then Allah orders to fight and promises victory. We should follow those examples and strive for peace and if banya brings war, then we will give them war. War should never be a priority for muslims.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

So u take all that in black and white. You think anything will be left to attack again after first failure?? Ppl like u neither know Islam nor diplomacy. Study the life of Prophet SAW and ull find diplomacy. How peace treaty was done with jews?? Umar RA the great warrior once said i wish there was a sea of fire between us and persians so we could live in peace. Islam always strives for peace. But when war is brought upon u even after all ur efforts for peace, then Allah orders to fight and promises victory. We should follow those examples and strive for peace and if banya brings war, then we will give them war. War should never be a priority for muslims.

1. I gave you a verse a clear verse from holy Quran not my words and your argument is it black and white. You see how you loose ground when being pacifist that you see it in plain writing a verse from holy Quran and you are trying to twist it or make it grayish when it's you who brought the examples of Islam not me.
2. Yes after a failure attack again because it's not the losses sustained that matter but commitment to the cause and you ready to put everything on the line for it and that's the attitude which grants you victory.
3. Your lecture about diplomacy there are two ways to be diplomatic
(A) Stand in front of UN and lecture them cry me a river to them and beg them like a bitch to intervene and do something. We want peace and cant afford war we are nation abiding ny rules we are good boys now. Let's see if that works
(B) Stand in front of that grand stage and focus on one thing that if India doesn't lift the curfew in such and such time we will declare war not because we are war mongering nation but we will declare war for very same reason that Great Britian declared war on Nazi Germany for invading Poland. We will fight for same cause that US and allies fought for agaisnt Nazi Germany where an American soldier an Australian soldier left the comfortness of their home and fought on the beaches of Normady. We will fight for just cause and will never let a Nazi like regime exist in the world let alone our region and neighborhoods. Keep it short keep it simple as soon as done with speech take a flight back to Pakistan and hold a security meeting of all branches. I bet you the next morning whole UN would be running around looking for Pakistani diplomats.

Now you pick which is better way ?

 

[313ghazi]

So u take all that in black and white. You think anything will be left to attack again after first failure?? Ppl like u neither know Islam nor diplomacy. Study the life of Prophet SAW and ull find diplomacy. How peace treaty was done with jews?? Umar RA the great warrior once said i wish there was a sea of fire between us and persians so we could live in peace. Islam always strives for peace. But when war is brought upon u even after all ur efforts for peace, then Allah orders to fight and promises victory. We should follow those examples and strive for peace and if banya brings war, then we will give them war. War should never be a priority for muslims.

You see this is the key bit here. For those of us of Kashmiri origin, we consider AJK, IOK, GB, Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan, KPK exactly the same. It is abundantly clear that there are many Pakistani's on this forum who do not. From your statement it would suggest the war being waged in IOK is in a foreign territory? For me they are not. What is happening in the villages of Jammu today happened in our village in Jammu 70+ years ago. My family fled with nothing a few km away. We are still in Jammu, just on the other side of a fence built by our enemy.

I am Pakistani, but if i was on the other side of the fence, for some of us i am not Pakistani. Even though people just like me are being buried with the Pakistani flag as their shroud, still there are people who consider them foreigners.

Diplomacy is only effective from a position of strength. The people in the UN are not your friends, they don't consider you their equals. Begging them to intervene, appealing to them will bring about no benefit.

My Suggested Path

1. Continue the diplomatic offensive and lobbying against India.
2. Continue to use diplomatic language and a non threateninglexicon, but end use of pacifist rhetoric.
3. Setup an anti India global movement like BDS, that's massively impacted Israel and in the long term will impact India too.

4. Prepare to fight a defensive war. The enemy has designs on AJK and distrupting CPEC, you can't wish that away. At best it's rhetoric, at worst, war will be imposed on us.

5. Take the military innitiative. Covertly supply weapons and training to freedom fighters in IOK and force India to fight a COIN war. If at this point they are aggresive towards Pakistan, you still have step 4 in place.

6. Try and light fires elsewhere. They've been doing it in our country for 15 years now. Why not recipricate. You don't need successful uprisings, you need antagonists to create fear and spread security forces. If this triggers communal violence - even better. That spreads Indian forces even thinner making the likeliness of any attack lower.

Nobody is suggesting rolling the tanks to Delhi, we know we're completely incapable of doing that. All of what i've suggested is completely possible and can be done with ease. India has a massive border with Pakistan, China and a huge coast. Smuggling of weapons and money can be done easily, it doesn't have to go through the CFL.

 

[R Wing]

Now please tell me what should we do for Kashmir issue, any suggestions @omegalamba7XL9


tell me what should we do, or you just starts this thread only for troll/bashed/rants agianst IK Govt @omegalamba7XL9

support the resistance using creative/clever/clandestine means, obviously.

we didn't become a nuclear power nor did we complicate things for NATO in Afghanistan by sitting on our asses (scared of whatever financial pressure tool was in vogue --- sanctions, FATF, whatever) and shuttling around engaging in useless "diplomacy" (and then patting ourselves on the back for it.) a sick mediocrity has seeped into our strategic thinking and, evidently, into this forum.

 

[TNT]

1. I gave you a verse a clear verse from holy Quran not my words and your argument is it black and white. You see how you loose ground when being pacifist that you see it in plain writing a verse from holy Quran and you are trying to twist it or make it grayish when it's you who brought the examples of Islam not me.
2. Yes after a failure attack again because it's not the losses sustained that matter but commitment to the cause and you ready to put everything on the line for it and that's the attitude which grants you victory.
3. Your lecture about diplomacy there are two ways to be diplomatic
(A) Stand in front of UN and lecture them cry me a river to them and beg them like a bitch to intervene and do something. We want peace and cant afford war we are nation abiding ny rules we are good boys now. Let's see if that works
(B) Stand in front of that grand stage and focus on one thing that if India doesn't lift the curfew in such and such time we will declare war not because we are war mongering nation but we will declare war for very same reason that Great Britian declared war on Nazi Germany for invading Poland. We will fight for same cause that US and allies fought for agaisnt Nazi Germany where an American soldier an Australian soldier left the comfortness of their home and fought on the beaches of Normady. We will fight for just cause and will never let a Nazi like regime exist in the world let alone our region and neighborhoods. Keep it short keep it simple as soon as done with speech take a flight back to Pakistan and hold a security meeting of all branches. I bet you the next morning whole UN would be running around looking for Pakistani diplomats.

Now you pick which is better way ?

How u explain Quran is like al qaeda and ISIS does. Take a verse without context and directly order killing of everyone.
Funny how sitting abroad among kafirs eating their food n having that money and sending poor pakistanis to war. The way u explain ur love for war and then say im not a warmongers only shows ur hypocrisy and delusions. War is an ugly thing, come n bring ur kids n face war. You also dont know ground realities of Pakistan. Warmongers like u actually are emotional and dont think with brain. So emotional speeches and fantasy doesnt count in reality.

You see this is the key bit here. For those of us of Kashmiri origin, we consider AJK, IOK, GB, Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan, KPK exactly the same. It is abundantly clear that there are many Pakistani's on this forum who do not. From your statement it would suggest the war being waged in IOK is in a foreign territory? For me they are not. What is happening in the villages of Jammu today happened in our village in Jammu 70+ years ago. My family fled with nothing a few km away. We are still in Jammu, just on the other side of a fence built by our enemy.

I am Pakistani, but if i was on the other side of the fence, for some of us i am not Pakistani. Even though people just like me are being buried with the Pakistani flag as their shroud, still there are people who consider them foreigners.

Diplomacy is only effective from a position of strength. The people in the UN are not your friends, they don't consider you their equals. Begging them to intervene, appealing to them will bring about no benefit.

My Suggested Path

1. Continue the diplomatic offensive and lobbying against India.
2. Continue to use diplomatic language and a non threateninglexicon, but end use of pacifist rhetoric.
3. Setup an anti India global movement like BDS, that's massively impacted Israel and in the long term will impact India too.

4. Prepare to fight a defensive war. The enemy has designs on AJK and distrupting CPEC, you can't wish that away. At best it's rhetoric, at worst, war will be imposed on us.

5. Take the military innitiative. Covertly supply weapons and training to freedom fighters in IOK and force India to fight a COIN war. If at this point they are aggresive towards Pakistan, you still have step 4 in place.

6. Try and light fires elsewhere. They've been doing it in our country for 15 years now. Why not recipricate. You don't need successful uprisings, you need antagonists to create fear and spread security forces. If this triggers communal violence - even better. That spreads Indian forces even thinner making the likeliness of any attack lower.

Nobody is suggesting rolling the tanks to Delhi, we know we're completely incapable of doing that. All of what i've suggested is completely possible and can be done with ease. India has a massive border with Pakistan, China and a huge coast. Smuggling of weapons and money can be done easily, it doesn't have to go through the CFL.

We consider kashmiris as Pakistanis, thats why we are having this discussion. The guy proposes an all out war like a crazy ISIS member. The point is paperwork change have hapenned and not that they have attacked and took it away. If of the view Pakistan should never have done ceasefire in 1948 and carried on taking full kashmir.
Rhe points you mentioned is what Pakistan will be doing. An all out war by foreign sitting extremists in not an option.