What Taiwanese think? – 40.9% of Taiwanese willing to fight for Taiwan, and other news

[gambit]

LMFAO you must be the first Vietnamese American five star air force general. Why doesn't your name appear in the news?

My ID was classified. That is how badass I was.

 

[Feng Leng]

My ID was classified. That is how badass I was.

I think all the mockery you received as a short brown Vietnamese American enlisted man scrubbing the air force latrines made you stupid.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

The same can be said for the PLA.

See, there it is. Can't handle light criticism of an Asian government that isn't even a US treaty ally, as if they were the US itself.

Most Americans won't give a damn if there's concrete proof that ROC Navy has a lack of professionalism because it says nothing about the US.

ROC Navy wasn't trained by the US, is barely even supplied by the US, why are you so worried about them being (justly) called unprofessional? It's simply the facts: due to both material and doctrinal inferiority to the PLAN, the ROC Navy does not have good chances.

 

[gambit]

See, there it is. Can't handle light criticism of an Asian government that isn't even a US treaty ally, as if they were the US itself.

Most Americans won't give a damn if there's concrete proof that ROC Navy has a lack of professionalism because it says nothing about the US.

ROC Navy wasn't trained by the US, is barely even supplied by the US, why are you so worried about them being (justly) called unprofessional? It's simply the facts: due to both material and doctrinal inferiority to the PLAN, the ROC Navy does not have good chances.

This is about 1 million Taiwanese against 200,000 PLA troops. From what I see so far, the over sensitivity is on your side.

 

[gambit]

How will they prevent their launchers from being discovered and destroyed from the air?

Did you know that the JPNese were producing the Zero fighter nearly all the way up to the war's end?


You did not? Well...That does not surprise me. Today's generation do not like books. Too much work opening the book, reading, turning the pages, and worse -- THINK about what was just read.

Whew...Broke out in a sweat.

Anyway...Back then, after the war's end, we found out underground JPNese factories escaped bombardment and were building many things from rifles, tanks, and all the way up to the famed Zero fighter. They were using highly refined PEANUT oil for lubricants.

If the US invaded, the urban war would have been bloody for all sides.

Taiwan have had literally DECADES of preparation for what they believes to be inevitable -- a China invasion. So 'How will' China prevent Taiwan from launching underground factories build weaponry from threatening Chinese assets in the air and on the strait? China cannot.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Did you know that the JPNese were producing the Zero fighter nearly all the way up to the war's end?


You did not? Well...That does not surprise me. Today's generation do not like books. Too much work opening the book, reading, turning the pages, and worse -- THINK about what was just read.

Whew...Broke out in a sweat.

Anyway...Back then, after the war's end, we found out underground JPNese factories escaped bombardment and were building many things from rifles, tanks, and all the way up to the famed Zero fighter. They were using highly refined PEANUT oil for lubricants.

If the US invaded, the urban war would have been bloody for all sides.

Taiwan have had literally DECADES of preparation for what they believes to be inevitable -- a China invasion. So 'How will' China prevent Taiwan from launching underground factories build weaponry from threatening Chinese assets in the air and on the strait? China cannot.

US factories in WW2 could convert from building cars to tanks within days. The same is not true today. There are too many specialized materials. Simple example: tanks need ceramic plate armor. Cars don't have this. Production of said ceramics is highly specialized and requires exotic materials, high lead times and high cost due to low peacetime demand.

Precision guided munitions at the time were nonexistent, it would sometimes take 10+ bombers to hit a single target. Today even dumb munitions like artillery shells have cheap guidance systems.

Modern wars move too fast. They are come as you are, since lead time and cost for the exotic parts used in specialized defense equipment (i.e. not guns) is extremely high due to lack of peacetime demand; an industral rampup will not be possible if your industrial centers are under bombardment already by day 1.

 

[Menthol]

China no longer follows that outdated teaching.

It's a universal value.

It's already there, just like the law of physics.

Whatever human is forgotten or lost, in the end, it will return to it again.

Just like religious teaching, it's a universal value.

 

[Faith_Lock]

Living in a big family is better than living alone.

Middle East want to establish the Caliphate to reunite the entire Muslim states.

Europe established EU.

SE Asia has ASEAN.

India is proud for being united and weep over Pakistan-Bangladesh separation.

Even USA is uniting multiple races within their country and promote it worldwide.


But East Asian is fighting and hating each others, endorsed and orchestrated by the USA, just like the USA did in the Middle East.

Good luck with that.

The only sane countries in East Asia are North and South Korea who are longing for united.

The rest don't have the quality of being a good race.

I agree.

I think within 20 years, the world will become a Chinese century. In addition, Chinese century would last for many centuries after that.

I makes me angry that why won't most of Taiwanese want to be part of that.

 

[Feng Leng]

I agree.

I think within 20 years, the world will become a Chinese century. In addition, Chinese century would last for many centuries after that.

I makes me angry that why won't most of Taiwanese want to be part of that.

It's exactly like Hong Kong. The more Hong Kongers are killed or wounded by mainland power, the more they support mainland. Simply put, not enough Taiwanese blood has been spilled yet. This will change soon.

 

[Faith_Lock]

More story on what Taiwan is doing to attack China (either by themselves or with others)

US Health secretary visits Taiwan

https://www.chinatimes.com/newspapers/20200807000714-260109?chdtv

It is in traditional Chinese. It states that Health secretary of USA is going to visit Taiwan next week.


I believe that the transportation secretary of USA had visited Taiwan 5 years ago. China was very mad back then. Health secretary ranked higher than the transportation secretary and is the highest USA official to visit Taiwan since formal establishment of relationship between China and USA.

 

[gambit]

US factories in WW2 could convert from building cars to tanks within days. The same is not true today. There are too many specialized materials. Simple example: tanks need ceramic plate armor. Cars don't have this. Production of said ceramics is highly specialized and requires exotic materials, high lead times and high cost due to low peacetime demand.

Precision guided munitions at the time were nonexistent, it would sometimes take 10+ bombers to hit a single target. Today even dumb munitions like artillery shells have cheap guidance systems.

Modern wars move too fast. They are come as you are, since lead time and cost for the exotic parts used in specialized defense equipment (i.e. not guns) is extremely high due to lack of peacetime demand; an industral rampup will not be possible if your industrial centers are under bombardment already by day 1.

This is wishful thinking argument and like I said earlier, intended more to make you guys feel good and not that you know what you are talking about.

No one know how far the Taiwanese have gone in making their war stockpiles survivable, and the Taiwanese are not going to reveal what they did. In the absence of such knowledge, war planners must assume the less optimistic option, if not the worst case scenario, and in this case, the PLA must assume that the Taiwanese war waging capabilities will survive the initial attack. Like I said so often in this forum, I hope the PLA leadership is populated with the PDF Chinese members.

Let us take the mining of all potential amphibious landing sites, for example. What Taiwan will do, and all sides of the strait know this, is to employ all types of mines, such as: moored contact, drifting contact, moored proximity, drifting proximity, and bottom anchored focused whose shaped explosive force is designed to rupture a ship's hull underside making staying afloat nearly impossible, and if the ship did not sink it will take on water so fast that the ship will be dead on the water as the crew struggles to evacuate the water. Against a flat bottom hull amphibious vessel, such a charge is essentially a death sentence for the troops within. With a %10 loss so close to the beach, that particular invasion have an increased risk of failure. If the loss is %20 off shore, the invaders will be delayed in meeting inland objectives. If the loss is %30 off shore, the invaders will be defeated on the beach. Now the entire invasion plan is at risk of failure.

But even though the PLA know what types of mines Taiwan defenders will use, the PLA do not know the plan layout because all these decades, the Taiwanese have refined the skill of deploying the mines unexpectedly via unscheduled exercises. The PLA may have an educated guess to the minimum field size but not the final figure, and this lack of knowledge is dangerous. For example: ONE mine field could be designed to use moored contact mines to funnel the landing vessels into a particular direction where shore artillery batteries will coordinate their salvos before moving, then rinse and repeat, and in this case, it will be PLA soldiers who will be rinsed.

These mines and precision artillery are not so sophisticated that they cannot be manufactured in reinforced underground bunkers safe from PLAAF air attacks, and after the mines, it will be artillery that will be the landing force's next great threat. Not yet counting cruise missiles that can attack the landing force at even greater range.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

This is wishful thinking argument and like I said earlier, intended more to make you guys feel good and not that you know what you are talking about.

No one know how far the Taiwanese have gone in making their war stockpiles survivable, and the Taiwanese are not going to reveal what they did. In the absence of such knowledge, war planners must assume the less optimistic option, if not the worst case scenario, and in this case, the PLA must assume that the Taiwanese war waging capabilities will survive the initial attack. Like I said so often in this forum, I hope the PLA leadership is populated with the PDF Chinese members.

Let us take the mining of all potential amphibious landing sites, for example. What Taiwan will do, and all sides of the strait know this, is to employ all types of mines, such as: moored contact, drifting contact, moored proximity, drifting proximity, and bottom anchored focused whose shaped explosive force is designed to rupture a ship's hull underside making staying afloat nearly impossible, and if the ship did not sink it will take on water so fast that the ship will be dead on the water as the crew struggles to evacuate the water. Against a flat bottom hull amphibious vessel, such a charge is essentially a death sentence for the troops within. With a %10 loss so close to the beach, that particular invasion have an increased risk of failure. If the loss is %20 off shore, the invaders will be delayed in meeting inland objectives. If the loss is %30 off shore, the invaders will be defeated on the beach. Now the entire invasion plan is at risk of failure.

But even though the PLA know what types of mines Taiwan defenders will use, the PLA do not know the plan layout because all these decades, the Taiwanese have refined the skill of deploying the mines unexpectedly via unscheduled exercises. The PLA may have an educated guess to the minimum field size but not the final figure, and this lack of knowledge is dangerous. For example: ONE mine field could be designed to use moored contact mines to funnel the landing vessels into a particular direction where shore artillery batteries will coordinate their salvos before moving, then rinse and repeat, and in this case, it will be PLA soldiers who will be rinsed.

These mines and precision artillery are not so sophisticated that they cannot be manufactured in reinforced underground bunkers safe from PLAAF air attacks, and after the mines, it will be artillery that will be the landing force's next great threat. Not yet counting cruise missiles that can attack the landing force at even greater range.

D-Day is still a very poor comparison vs. Incheon. North Korea was also prepared for an amphibious invasion. Didn't matter, US military just had more firepower. And in Incheon the US military still didn't have precision munitions.

Even worse for Taiwan is that helicopters and rocket artillery can just fly/fire across the strait directly. The PLA ground forces can even engage ROC forces without stepping foot on a transport. This couldn't happen in D-Day. No helicopters or long range rocket artillery.

Z-10s have 800 km range, enough to fly anywhere in Taiwan and have the firepower equivalent of Apaches. There's 300+ already built as of 2017, a few hundred more on the way. Taiwanese armor sitting on the beach doesn't stand a chance once air superiority is gained.

WS-2 rocket artillery has 250 km range with guided rockets, firing 48 300 mm rockets per vehicle. Beach defenses and urban infrastructure can be lit up by this, with PLAAF, PLAN and PLARF munitions reserved for strategic targets. Some lit up literally, with incendiary warheads.

They won't get the opportunity to put newly built equipment into service. Taiwans entire infrastructure is a target, including power, oil refinery and storage, food storage, bridges, water treatment and semiconductor fabs. They will be forced to produce civilian products and repair civilian infrastructure.

 

[OIO]

I don’t think people understand how Taiwanese think. I will be happy to reply if anyone has any questions.


First a little about myself, I am originally from Taiwan. Most of my relatives are hardcore for Taiwan Independence (I will call them TIers). I also have friends who are mainlanders. Here in the USA, most of my friends are Mainlanders. But all my family functions are with TIers.


I myself firmly believe China and Taiwan belong to each other.


The first link talked about how strong is the will for Taiwanese to fight for Taiwan Independence.

https://www.ettoday.net/news/20200720/1764795.htm

It is in Traditional Chinese, so let me translate the main point. From the polling conducted between 7/15/2020 to 7/16/2020, if the war between China and Taiwan occurs, are you or (your children if you are older) willing to fight for Taiwan.

The result is as follows: 40.9% willing vs. 49.1% not willing. Now, compare to the same poll conducted on April 2018, the one on 4/2018 is 23.6% willing vs. 73.3% not willing.


There are two ways to look at this result.


Note that the poll is not asking do you want to fight for Taiwan Independence. The poll is asking when the war already started, do you want to fight for Taiwan. Even for the cases that China went nuts and start evading Taiwan (even without declaring Taiwan Independence), much more Taiwanese have no interest in fighting for Taiwan.


What this means is if a war does start and China is able to land significant troops on Taiwan. There is extremely high probability that many Taiwanese troops will either surrender or turn against Taiwan itself.


But it is not all good news for China completely. From the same poll, from 4/2018 to 7/2020, the number of Taiwanese willing to fight goes up significantly from 23.6% to 40.9%.


It is as expected. As Taiwanese government had shown in the past 5 years, she is the first government who continuously attack China without suffering much counter attacks from China. Now, average Taiwanese are seeing governments such as Australia and USA are doing the same thing with similar results. Many Taiwanese start to feel braver.


If there are some other news from Taiwan, I might post them here (if enough people are interested).

I used to be not hostile to Taiwan people as CPC always claim they are fellow citizens. Things are changing recently after they deeply involved in the Pompeo' anti China policy. They were active in Hong Kong riot, funding and organizing, they are pretending to mainland Chinese online destroy relationship of China and other countries, escalating every single issue to bash government.

At least 1/3 of Taiwan people should be killed, the most of rest should be moved to desert to plant tree.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I used to be not hostile to Taiwan people as CPC always claim they are fellow citizens. Things are changing recently after they deeply involved in the Pompeo' anti China policy. They were active in Hong Kong riot, funding and organizing, they are pretending to mainland Chinese online destroy relationship of China and other countries, escalating every single issue to bash government.

At least 1/3 of Taiwan people should be killed, the most of rest should be moved to desert to plant tree.

I believe force should be used as little as possible. China is a benevolent country and we are a benevolent and moral people. There is no need to punish the innocent, we would be no different from Nazi Germany or KMT.

A few tens of thousands of pro-independence hardliners purged after trial, other DPP party members imprisoned and the population integrated as citizens but stripped of their political rights for 10 years should be appropriate.

This is still far more lenient than how the KMT treated CCP, btw.

 

[OIO]

I believe force should be used as little as possible. China is a benevolent country and we are a benevolent and moral people. There is no need to punish the innocent, we would be no different from Nazi Germany or KMT.

A few tens of thousands of pro-independence hardliners purged after trial, other DPP party members imprisoned and the population integrated as citizens but stripped of their political rights for 10 years should be appropriate.

This is still far more lenient than how the KMT treated CCP, btw.

Without sword you are not a gentleman!
不用霹雳手段不显菩萨心肠！