What made IAF Stand down in Kargil

[GR!FF!N]

That wet dream thread again..

 

[Joe Shearer]

Pakistan shot down armed aerial vehicles that dared to cross our borders--not by mistake--but in a war theatre.

india shot down an unarmed, big aeroplane with trainees on it.

Shows the caliber and standard of both forces..

One force showed martial disciple and took on military threats head on---while the other force backstabbed by taking a shot at an unarmed trainee filled airplane.

No wonder hindus, being inferior, were ruled by dominant, martial Muslims for thousand year.

What a communal little bigot you are.

They stood down because they weren't capable to win, just like in 2002 and 2008.

You're asking for trouble.

Some of the stupid assumptions made:

When Lt Gen Mahmood asked for questions at the end of the rather crisp and to-the-point briefing, Air Cdre Saleem Nawaz opened up by inquiring about the type of air support that might be needed for the operation. Lt Gen Mahmood assured us that air support was not envisaged and that his forces could take care of enemy aircraft, if they intervened. “I have Stingers on every peak,” he announced. Air Cdre Saleem tried to point out the limited envelope of these types of missiles and said that nothing stopped the IAF from attacking the posts and artillery pieces from high altitude. To this, Lt Gen Mahmood’s reply was that his troops were well camouflaged and concealed and, that IAF pilots would not be able to pick out the posts from the air. As the discussion became more animated, I asked the Corps Commander if he was sure the Indians would not use their artillery to vacate our incursion, given the criticality of the situation from their standpoint. He replied that the Dras-Kargil stretch did not allow for positioning of the hundreds of guns that would be required, due to lack of depth; in any case, it would be suicidal for the Indians to denude artillery firepower from any other sector as defensive balance had to be maintained. He gave the example of the Kathua-Jammu Sector where the Indians had a compulsion to keep the bulk of their modern Bofors guns due to the vital road link’s vulnerability to our offensive elements.

They stood down because they weren't capable to win, just like in 2002 and 2008.

I haven't finished.

Rubbing your face in it - Section 2:

Operations by IAF started in earnest on 26 May, a full 16 days after commencement of Pakistani infiltration across the LOC. The salient feature of this initial phase was strafing and rocketing of the intruders’ positions by MiG-21, MiG-23BN and MiG-27. All operations (except air defence) came to a sudden standstill on 28 May, after two IAF fighters and a helicopter were lost – a MiG-21 and a Mi-17 to Pak Army surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), while a MiG-27 went down due to engine trouble caused by gun gas ingestion during high altitude strafing. (Incidentally, the pilot of the MiG-27 Flt Lt Nachiketa, who ejected and was apprehended, had a tête-à-tête with this author during an interesting ‘interrogation’ session.)

The other MiG pilot was brutally murdered on the ground. When that happened to Oleg Pechkov, the Turkish President finally apologised to the Russians. There was never even a word of regret on this occasion.

They stood down because they weren't capable to win, just like in 2002 and 2008.

I really, sincerely wish that you wouldn't open your pie-hole until you've done your background homework.

Section 3:

The results achieved by the IAF in the first two days were dismal. Serious restraints seem to have been imposed on the freedom of action of IAF fighters in what was basically a search-and-destroy mission. Lt Gen Mahmood’s rant about a ‘Stinger on every peak’ seemed true. It was obvious that the IAF had under-estimated the SAM threat. The mood in Pak Army circles was that of undiluted elation, and the PAF was expected to sit it out while sharing the khakis’ glee.

They stood down because they weren't capable to win, just like in 2002 and 2008.

Just like that. A heavenly being came down and told you, I suppose. Here is a contradictory account.

Section 4:

By 16 June, IAF was able to open up the laser-guided bombing campaign with the help of Jaguars and Mirage-2000. Daily photo-recce along the LOC by Jaguars escorted by Mirage-2000s, which had continued from the beginning of operations, proved crucial to both the aerial bombing campaign as well as the Indian artillery, helping the latter in accurately shelling Pakistani positions in the Dras-Kargil and Gultari Sectors. While the photo-recce missions typically did not involve deliberate border violations, there were a total of 37 ‘technical violations’ (which emanate as a consequence of kinks and bends in the geographical boundaries). Typically, these averaged to a depth of five nautical miles, except on one occasion when the IAF fighters apparently cocked-a-snoot at the PAF and came in 13 miles deep.

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

lack of political will that stopped conflict from escalating into a full blown war, despite showing tactical brilliance Pakistan's generals overestimated the effect of nuclear deterrence. this issue has been debated to death, refrain from making new threads. goodday

 

[Joe Shearer]

They stood down because they weren't capable to win, just like in 2002 and 2008.

No, they weren't capable to win (sic), says a fanboy. And what does a professional PAF commander say?

Section 5:

The Mirage-2000s scored at least five successful laser-guided bomb hits on forward dumping sites and posts. During the last days of operations which ended on 12 July, it was clear that delivery accuracy had improved considerably. Even though night bombing accuracy was suspect, round-the-clock attacks had made retention of posts untenable for Pakistani infiltrators. Photo-recce of Pakistani artillery gun positions also made them vulnerable to Indian artillery.

The IAF flew a total of 550 strike missions against infiltrator positions including bunkers and supply depots. The coordinates of these locations were mostly picked up from about 150 reconnaissance and communications intelligence missions. In addition, 500 missions were flown for air defence and for escorting strike and recce missions.

While the Indians had been surprised by the infiltration in Kargil, the IAF mobilised and reacted rapidly as the Indian Army took time to position itself. Later, when the Indian Army had entrenched itself, the IAF supplemented and filled in where the artillery could not be positioned in force. Clearly, Army-Air joint operations had a synergistic effect in evicting the intruders.

 

[Windjammer]

That wet dream thread again..

You should really change your bed sheet and make an effort to watch and understand the OP.
But since it's beyond your understanding, the query is ''why did IAF not launch cross border raids''... ??/
Attacking targets within own area without opposition.... wouldn't be difficult even for the Somalian Air Force.

 

[Joe Shearer]

They stood down because they weren't capable to win, just like in 2002 and 2008.

I think it was the RAF that coined the term chairborne warrior. The Pakistani fanboys on PDF merely ground it to a diamond finish.

Section 6:

PAF in a Bind

From the very beginning of Kargil operations, PAF was entrapped by a circumstantial absurdity: it was faced with the ludicrous predicament of having to provide air support to infiltrators already disowned by the Pakistan Army leadership! In any case, it took some effort to impress on the latter that crossing the LOC by fighters laden with bombs was not, by any stretch of imagination, akin to lobbing a few artillery shells to settle scores. There was no doubt in the minds of PAF Air Staff that the first cross-border attack (whether across LOC or the international border) would invite an immediate response from the IAF, possibly in the shape of a retaliatory strike against the home base of the intruding fighters, thus starting the first round. PAF’s intervention meant all-out war: this unmistakable conclusion was conveyed to the Prime Minister, Mr Nawaz Sharif, by the Air Chief in no equivocal terms.

They stood down because they weren't capable to win, just like in 2002 and 2008.

Section 7:

PAF in a Bind (cont.)

Short of starting an all-out war, PAF looked at some saner options that could put some wind in the sails after doldrums had been hit. Air Marshal Najib Akhtar, the Air Officer Commanding of Air Defence Command was co-opted by the Air Staff to sift the possibilities. Audacious and innovative in equal parts, Air Marshal Najib had an excellent knowledge about our own and the enemy’s Air Defence Ground Environment (ADGE). He had conceived and overseen the unprecedented heli-lift of a low-looking radar to a 12,000-ft mountain top on the forbidding, snow-clad Deosai Plateau. The highly risky operation became possible with the help of some courageous flying by Army Aviation pilots. With good low level radar cover now available up to the LOC, Air Marshal Najib along with the Air Staff focused on fighter sweep (a mission flown to destroy patrolling enemy fighters) as a possible option.

To prevent the mission from being seen as an escalatory step in the already charged atmosphere, PAF had to lure Indian fighters into its own territory, ie Azad Kashmir or the Northern Areas. That done, a number of issues had to be tackled. What if the enemy aircraft were hit in our territory but fell across, providing a pretext to India as a doubly aggrieved party? What if one of our own aircraft fell, no matter if the exchange was one-to-one (or better)? Finally, even if we were able to pull off a surprise, would it not be a one-off incident, with the IAF becoming wiser in quick time? The over-arching consideration was the BVR missile capability of IAF fighters which impinged unfavourably on the mission success probability. The conclusion was that a replication of the famous four-Vampire rout of 1st September 1965 by two Sabres might not be possible. The idea of a fighter sweep thus fizzled out as quickly as it came up for discussion.

They stood down because they weren't capable to win, just like in 2002 and 2008.

Of course they stood down. It was Martians in Montgolfier balloons who did all the flying around, 500 missions in all. But those who want to can look up and read the authentic account: others can apply their superior brains and 'discover' what might have happened, what must have happened, without any knowledge of what had happened.

Section 8:

While the PAF looked at some offensive options, it had a more pressing defensive issue at hand. The IAF’s minor border violations during recce missions were not of grave consequence in so far as no bombing had taken place in our territory; however, the fact that these missions helped the enemy refine its air and artillery targeting, was, to say the least, disconcerting. There were constant reports of our troops on the LOC disturbed to see, or hear, IAF fighters operating with apparent impunity. The GHQ took the matter up with the AHQ and it was resolved that Combat Air Patrols (CAPs) would be flown by the F-16s operating out of Minhas (Kamra) and Sargodha. This arrangement resulted in less on-station time but was safer than operating out of vulnerable Skardu, which had inadequate early warning in the mountainous terrain; its status as a turn-around facility was, however, considered acceptable for its location. A flight of F-7s was, nonetheless, deployed primarily for point defence of the important garrison town of Skardu as well as the air base.

They stood down because they weren't capable to win, just like in 2002 and 2008.

Weren't capable 'to' win. Natch. Win what? Oh, generally speaking, win. Against such powerful thought processes, our coffee-drugged brains must fail:

Section 9:

F-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions.

Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place. After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

Lt Gen Mahmood assured us that air support was not envisaged and that his forces could take care of enemy aircraft, if they intervened.

Lt Gen Mahmood’s reply was that his troops were well camouflaged and concealed and, that IAF pilots would not be able to pick out the posts from the air.

He replied that the Dras-Kargil stretch did not allow for positioning of the hundreds of guns that would be required,

Sometimes I think If we have Generals posing as PDF members here-

 

[Joe Shearer]

They stood down because they weren't capable to win, just like in 2002 and 2008.

Actually, this will prove you right in this very post:

Section 10:

Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the PAF’s lack of cooperation. Suffice it to say that if the PAF had been included in the initial planning, this anomaly (along with many others) would have emerged as a mitigating factor against the Kargil adventure. It is another matter that the Army high command did not envisage operations ever coming to such a pass. Now, it was almost as if the PAF was to blame for the Kargil venture spiralling out of control.

It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.

In sum, the PAF found it expedient not to worry too much about minor border violations and instead, conserve resources for the larger conflagration that was looming. All the same, it gave the enemy no pretext for retaliation in the face of any provocation, though this latter stance irked some quarters in the Army that were desperate to ‘equal the match’. Might it strike to some that PAF’s restraint in warding off a major conflagration may have been its paramount contribution to the Kargil conflict?

They stood down because they weren't capable to win, just like in 2002 and 2008.

Unlike fuddu neighbor army,which seeks pride in capturing neighbor's land,Indian Armed Force always maintained that they'll not going to cross LOC,as our coward neighbor said in front of whole world,its not their army,but "Indigenous Freedom Fighters" who are fighting.India used it on its advantage,thus denied Pakistan any ground to make it a full blown war.When Indian Armed Forces killed so called mercenary forces,Pakistan simply watched helplessly.At last,they accepted that it was their men who are fighting,thus getting condemned worldwide.Pakistan's General ousted civilian govt just to hide his failure,and yet,few Pakistanis have the courage to open a thread on "Why India didn't attack Pakistan"??

Because India's restraint earned it both honor as well as win,unlike some whose misadventure only brought loss of honor as well as over 4000 lives and countless sufferings.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU? Clean up your language.

Yes, it was India that refused to accept the dead bodies of its soldiers.

And you forgot killing a pilot whose plane had crashed?

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

With 1100 sorties in 4 months how the hell was IAF standing down.

PAF with its non bvr junkie's and critically short of spares were sitting ducks.

As for why didn't IAF cross the border..They did multiple incursions. ..If I remember it right ...Pakistan recorded IAF incursions in the hundreds, but then. .that could be attributed to the shape of the LOC when jets fly close to the border...They do tend to cross over and return multiple times.

The US was determined in their hunt for bin laden and they were extra active in trying to cut down the war. Which forced Pakistanis to call for cease fire.

But Bin Laden search began after sept 2001 right?

 

[Windjammer]

Unlike fuddu neighbor army,which seeks pride in capturing neighbor's land,Indian Armed Force always maintained that they'll not going to cross LOC,as our coward neighbor said in front of whole world,its not their army,but "Indigenous Freedom Fighters" who are fighting.India used it on its advantage,thus denied Pakistan any ground to make it a full blown war.When Indian Armed Forces killed so called mercenary forces,Pakistan simply watched helplessly.At last,they accepted that it was their men who are fighting,thus getting condemned worldwide.Pakistan's General ousted civilian govt just to hide his failure,and yet,few Pakistanis have the courage to open a thread on "Why India didn't attack Pakistan"??

Because India's restraint earned it both honor as well as win,unlike some whose misadventure only brought loss of honor as well as over 4000 lives and countless sufferings.

Much better than your pathetic security forces which make a FUDDU of it's own nation by presenting them with Pigeons and balloons and those stupid nationals take pride in these achievements.
And the so called high moral neighbour brings the whole army to the border and sits on it's sorry a$$ for a whole year, and after losing a thousand men runs back with it's tail between it's legs. And yes we lost 4000 lives but somehow your army ran out of coffins.

 

[GR!FF!N]

WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU? Clean up your language.

Fuddu->Nonsense.

Much better than your pathetic security forces which make a FUDDU of it's own nation by presenting them with Pigeons and balloons and those stupid nationals take pride in these achievements.
And the so called high moral neighbour brings the whole army to the border and sits on it's sorry a$$ for a whole year, and after losing a thousand men runs back with it's tail between it's legs. And yes we lost 4000 lives but somehow your army ran out of coffins.

We take pride in these..

And you take in these...

Thats our only difference..

Tell me one thing,from Kargil War,what Pakistan achieved??

 

[Sneaker]

IAF couldn't "cross border" and bomb anything. I tried to cross borders..and was humiliated when our forces shot em down..They never crossed borders again LOL.

Btw, 4000 Pakistani casualty figure is a myth. A lot more indians were killed than Pakistanis in Kargil operation. This has been proven to be true by many senior (including Indian) members here.

I won't spoon feed you again. Move on.

Sorry sir, what you said makes no sense.. IAF did what needs to be done by crossing the border or just staying inside it. It did bomb pak forces and helped in evicting them. the 1 heli and the jet that went down for manpads didn't cross the border.. they were shot down by pak ground troops and not PAF.. it was the ground troops again on the canberra while doing recce inside pak airspace.. again no PAF.. Even people like Kaiser admitted IAF was operating at will. So, please keep your own made up facts for some other uninformed people..

4000 casualty came from your own PM.. we know atleast 500 killed by PA own admission (which it later removed).. there again, I would take info by a PM more seriously than "senior members" of PDF..

 

[Windjammer]

Fuddu->Nonsense.



We take pride in these..

And you take in these...

Thats our only difference..

Tell me one thing,from Kargil War,what Pakistan achieved??

We take pride in for not staging anything to make ourselves look good, only Indians would have cameras behind every rock.boulder and glacier to film every detail to full fill the Indian habits of feel good....do you think no dead bodies of indian soldiers were handed over to India,,,, did you witness any circus like you clowns are always putting up.
And listen to your own for what we achieved.
http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main4.asp?filename=Ne071704pakistan_still.asp

And this is your ground reality.....read and weep and dig up more pictures to put wind in your sails.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KA21Df02.html

 

[navtrek]

Old tantrum when Pakistani talks about religion Hindus / Indians start acting like atheists but when talk about beef then they became practicing chaadi waadi even tries to justify the killings of innocent over beef.

How does a Muslim feel when you are asked to eat pork ?

The point here is neither Hindu or Muslim. Its all about the environment in which we are brought up the things that we blindly believe and follow.

Many Hindus eat beef but its a taboo for many others. Its all just blind belief. You call Cow mother and then go and eat goat, sheep and chicken as if they are not living animals.

Lets be pragmatic Hindu or a Muslim not blindly religious.

lets not drag religion in to all the topics. Religion is for the soul that is what connects you to god let it be a matter for the soul and not politics.

 

[AUz]

Sorry sir, what you said makes no sense.. IAF did what needs to be done by crossing the border or just staying inside it. It did bomb pak forces and helped in evicting them. the 1 heli and the jet that went down for manpads didn't cross the border.. they were shot down by pak ground troops and not PAF.. it was the ground troops again on the canberra while doing recce inside pak airspace.. again no PAF.. Even people like Kaiser admitted IAF was operating at will. So, please keep your own made up facts for some other uninformed people..

4000 casualty came from your own PM.. we know atleast 500 killed by PA own admission (which it later removed).. there again, I would take info by a PM more seriously than "senior members" of PDF..

IAF was operating at will inside its own airspace and not in Pakistan's. You skipped that part, eh? lol..

Kaiser Tufail never said otherwise. I've read his account---multiple times. Please post the relevant parts where he somehow implied that iaf operated inside Pakistani territory 'at will' ? iaf never did.

And the same PM who claimed that he didn't even know about Kargil operations claimed 4000 number and you are willing to accept it even when this number has been shown to be thoroughly wrong? Offcourse, it's called being willfully naive. You seriously think Pakistan army deployed 4000 soldiers with all the ammunition and equipment on small, freezing peaks of Kargil--that too, in an operation that was supposed to be an infiltration of Indian posts left by their Army? Do you really believe that it's even possible?

You are in a defence forum, stop making a fool out of yourself by claiming things that aren't even logistically logical. No shame in accepting the fact that indians lost many more men than us--we were on top and indians were amassed on the ground. Nothing unusual here.

But offcourse, indians killed 4000 men on peaks (where 4000 men can't even be deployed!!!)..while indians lost fewer men climbing up...sure.