What led to the failure of project Azm?

[GriffinsRule]

It's ridiculous if you think about the Mushshak program. It's not any more complex than the UAVs Turkey is manufacturing yet we can't produce them at even a semi respectable rate having been manufacturing them for 5 decades plus. Quiet embarrassing to say the least.

 

[renhai]

Turkey's biggest constraint is economies-of-scale, so its defence programs can get more expensive (at least from a production standpoint) compared to Chinese ones. Hence, there'll generally be more scope for partnerships and collaboration with the Turks (due to the lack of scale) as opposed to China. IMO, the real problem here is that Pakistan is missing out on the opportunity to develop critical technologies with the Turks.

economic scale, industrial base, technological accumulation, Maybe there is the willpower of the leader. national character. Sacrifice and dedication.....

It sounds ridiculous. isn't it?

But what is more ridiculous is that the Chinese dream of "sacrificing for the aviation industry of the motherland!" they built the first aircraft in Asia in China in 1911.

Feng Ru - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

These Chinese did not even know that the Qing Dynasty was about to collapse. They won't get any support! How ridiculous! Lolll...

............................................................

Do you have to have economic scale to build an airplane?

 

[MirageBlue]

Unfortunately the Pakistanis are following the model you indians use.

What model would that be?

 

[MirageBlue]

People it seems never learned from the IAI Lavi failure that the Israelis had, or even the Tejas project failures that the Indians had. don't try to create a full product all on your own, in the very first go. The way to go about this is to do things piecewise.

I have the book 'Lavi' by John Golan. It clearly explains how the airplane itself was quite something. Very capable. But the issue that let the whole program down was it's massive dependence on US funding. And how that was simply not going to work for the US since it would end up taking market share away from the F-16, which the Lavi surpassed in some areas.

It was not an issue of Israel over-reaching engineering wise or lacking the technology base for it, but rather an issue of the program being too expensive for Israel to afford on it's own when F-16s were available for them via FMS for almost free.

As for the Tejas program, I can only say one thing- it is the only reason why India today can work on the Tejas Mk1A, Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA, all programs together. It is a massive stretch as far as engineering resources go, but without the Tejas program, India would've been forever a license building nation.

I can write a whole lot on it, but will remain eternally grateful to the Indian politicians, scientists, technocrats and others who sanctioned the program, the investment into all the facilities that were needed to develop it and kept the will to keep going despite delays and missed deadlines. There were umpteen attempts made to kill the program, especially given how lucrative it is for foreign OEMs to get an order from the IAF even for a license built fighter.

JF-17 made a lot of people who never understood or yet understand the level of complexity in a fighter program, believe that Pakistan knew how to make fighters. They were both fooled and chose to stay ignorant.

 

[TheSolution]

I have the book 'Lavi' by John Golan. It clearly explains how the airplane itself was quite something. Very capable. But the issue that let the whole program down was it's massive dependence on US funding. And how that was simply not going to work for the US since it would end up taking market share away from the F-16, which the Lavi surpassed in some areas.

It was not an issue of Israel over-reaching engineering wise or lacking the technology base for it, but rather an issue of the program being too expensive for Israel to afford on it's own when F-16s were available for them via FMS for almost free.

As for the Tejas program, I can only say one thing- it is the only reason why India today can work on the Tejas Mk1A, Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA, all programs together. It is a massive stretch as far as engineering resources go, but without the Tejas program, India would've been forever a license building nation.

I can write a whole lot on it, but will remain eternally grateful to the Indian politicians, scientists, technocrats and others who sanctioned the program, the investment into all the facilities that were needed to develop it and kept the will to keep going despite delays and missed deadlines. There were umpteen attempts made to kill the program, especially given how lucrative it is for foreign OEMs to get an order from the IAF even for a license built fighter.

JF-17 made a lot of people who never understood or yet understand the level of complexity in a fighter program, believe that Pakistan knew how to make fighters. They were both fooled and chose to stay ignorant.

Tejas was a good program for India, you built all the industry, technical knowledge and ecosystem in-house. Even if it took a while, today you have a decently evolving industry.

Unfortunately, Pakistanis piggybacked and boasted of a jet made mostly by Chinese efforts and isn't even 100% indigenous.

You may have took 40 years or whatever - but you won since today your industry is leagues ahead of Pakistan's.

On the Lavi topic though - does the J-10C have Lavi heritage?

 

[Corax]

What model would that be?

All talk and no show.

I have the book 'Lavi' by John Golan. It clearly explains how the airplane itself was quite something. Very capable. But the issue that let the whole program down was it's massive dependence on US funding. And how that was simply not going to work for the US since it would end up taking market share away from the F-16, which the Lavi surpassed in some areas.

It was not an issue of Israel over-reaching engineering wise or lacking the technology base for it, but rather an issue of the program being too expensive for Israel to afford on it's own when F-16s were available for them via FMS for almost free.

As for the Tejas program, I can only say one thing- it is the only reason why India today can work on the Tejas Mk1A, Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA, all programs together. It is a massive stretch as far as engineering resources go, but without the Tejas program, India would've been forever a license building nation.

I can write a whole lot on it, but will remain eternally grateful to the Indian politicians, scientists, technocrats and others who sanctioned the program, the investment into all the facilities that were needed to develop it and kept the will to keep going despite delays and missed deadlines. There were umpteen attempts made to kill the program, especially given how lucrative it is for foreign OEMs to get an order from the IAF even for a license built fighter.

JF-17 made a lot of people who never understood or yet understand the level of complexity in a fighter program, believe that Pakistan knew how to make fighters. They were both fooled and chose to stay ignorant.

Tejas - designed by Dassault, FCS designed by Lockheed Martin, Israeli radar, avionics a mishmash of indian and Western, engine American, LDP/weapons Western/Russian/indian. ...after 40 years. Let's see how your other "indigenous" projects develop after another 40 years.

 

[dilpakistani]

Probably because it doens't provide quick comissions to retiring haramkhors... Airchief red carpet kai baghair helicopter sai nai utarta... haram ka maal jama kiyai beghair kursi sai kaisay utar jyai

 

[Erieye]

I can look past the word fumble as public speaking might not be someone's strong point. But besides construction of buildings, I didn't hear any details of how they will fill them or which university of college in Pakistan have they even talked to so far to create partnerships/internship programs with. Though at one point he did mention providing highspeed internet to locally sourced buildings and getting IT professionals from the surrounding areas in them. What they will be doing is another matter.

Agreed, this is exactly why I said we need more high quality STEM universities to be opened that can compete internationally in the level of quality. Quality is important, not all institutions hold the same value. Then we can funnel that talent into internship programs etc, and have high quality human resource.

But on that note, I think they have Air University which they opened but it looks to be in the middle of nowhere and very dull... but they could collab with NUST and the Nspire start-ups incubator they have.

 

[Faceless]

Guy, this post is 15 years too late.

Does that makes it any less relevant or wrong.

Unfortunately the Pakistanis are following the model you indians use.

And what model do you think we Indians use, because what I am seeing is, we have learnt our lessons from past mistakes and our enemy's successes (your) too, so in my opinion our method is working and we are further polishing it

 

[JamD]

But on that note, I think they have Air University which they opened but it looks to be in the middle of nowhere and very dull... but they could collab with NUST and the Nspire start-ups incubator they have.

Went there on a visit. VC gave presentation on how they were going to revolutionize pakistans aviation industry. When pressed on specifics there were none. The entire time we were told of how many buildings they had built, how many buildings were planned, and how many students they were enrolling. He had no answer for what these enrolled students were going to do after graduation. The buildings that they did have were utterly depressing. They were built in the past 5 years but were of horrible quality with paint chipping and depressing lighting typical of MES construction. Looked liked kickback heaven to me.

 

[Corax]

Does that makes it any less relevant or wrong.

And what model do you think we Indians use, because what I am seeing is, we have learnt our lessons from past mistakes and our enemy's successes (your) too, so in my opinion our method is working and we are further polishing it

Polishing a turd.

 

[Erieye]

Went there on a visit. VC gave presentation on how they were going to revolutionize pakistans aviation industry. When pressed on specifics there were none. The entire time we were told of how many buildings they had built, how many buildings were planned, and how many students they were enrolling. He had no answer for what these enrolled students were going to do after graduation. The buildings that they did have were utterly depressing. They were built in the past 5 years but were of horrible quality with paint chipping and depressing lighting typical of MES construction. Looked liked kickback heaven to me.

I checked it on Google Earth and yeah, it looks like something from the 1960's/70's... indeed very depressing. DHA experience is failing us too.

There's a singular academic building and then a hostel next to it, in the middle of nowhere. And somewhere closeby where the NASTP is supposedly being built, is a building that has been under construction for quite a while now.

But weirdly enough they built a parallel of the same institution with the same name inside the PAF Nur Khan base, and although the building's quality and design seems to be slightly better, but why is it inside an air base? Wouldn't it be better to be in a more civillian area? And it likely has no real direction, clear goal or long-term planning either unforunately.

Again it's the desi uncle mentality:

1. Construct some buildings
2. Hire random teachers (no experience, quality or background checks)
3. Stuff some students in there

And it is somehow guaranteed that an F-22 will roll out within the next 10 years.

They have no clue what they're doing... no quality checks, no clear roadmap, no ecosystem.

 

[SQ8]

I don't think it's supposed to be any actual plane - just a canard delta design and it happens to resemble a Gripen

It literally is the gripen showing all the weapons it has - just a tick mark “I did my job” effort

 

[TheSolution]

It literally is the gripen showing all the weapons it has - just a tick mark “I did my job” effort

Yes unfortunately I realised after, I didn't expect them to stoop that low especially for a presentation of a project initiated by the air force itself during a speech by an air chief

 

[SQ8]

It was never a realistic project.

Pakistan never designed any trainer or fighter aircraft. Till now, mostly doing the assembly.

Have Pakistan build the infrastructure and another facilities, example to build and test the new design and tunnel?

These were all planned but neither the resources nor consistency exists to make anything happen.

Much like Pakistan overall - the failed state aspect is coming home to roost in all institutions. It is a mindset issue which was forced in around the late 70s and 80’s that was bound to flower into the doom of today.

Yes unfortunately I realised after, I didn't expect them to stoop that low especially for a presentation of a project initiated by the air force itself during a speech by an air chief

I’m not sure if the Air Chief was bothered enough other than just to take his photo op and cult of personality moments