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WHAT IT TAKES technly, TO MAKE a J-11b (a modifyied FLANKER), TO TAKE ON MKI!

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Okay first of all... upgrading chinese J-11 to MKI standard is not possible for pakistan because we need access to IAI and Russian technology and non will ever allow us.. Leaving European market.. now why will they be willing to sacrifice their air crafts and help pakistan build another 4.5 generation fighter with the help of their own systems?
Thats why i think J-11 is not a choice for pakistan... RAFALE IS!
 
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excuse me, sir
frist of all, g the things, it is a tactical, thread!
we are not comparinG, the 2 birds! here, all we want to know, what up-grads (chinese or russian, even westrn) will, make J11B able to, take on MKIs?
i certenly hope, that you understand the given QUESTION?:cheesy:
anyway, plz wait for indepth feedbacks from , our pro;s on the subject, plz dont just post, immiginative theories, here.
your co-opreation , will be admmired!:smokin:
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Okay first of all... upgrading chinese J-11 to MKI standard is not possible for pakistan because we need access to IAI and Russian technology and non will ever allow us.. Leaving European market.. now why will they be willing to sacrifice their air crafts and help pakistan build another 4.5 generation fighter with the help of their own systems?
Thats why i think J-11 is not a choice for pakistan... RAFALE IS!

Yes! definitely,

1) Making a combo of J-11 / MKI is not being realistic. Not, unless, the Chinese achieve full techno mastery of all the equipment. If that ever happens, I think we the PAF will have a pretty Mean looking bird that we could buy from China. If the Chinese, do that, they will have achieved know how in many of the critical systems as well, which will be good for both the PLAF and PAF.

2) The Europeans, run their businesses on a cutthroat mentality, they will not allow their tech base to be cheaply sanctioned for the up gradation of our or a PLAAF platform that can ruin the chances of their own made fighters.
 
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canards? :what:
mind you the much superior Su-35BM has no canards nor the TVC.

I thought Su-35 has 117S which is all aspect TVC.
Check this pic from AusAirPower.


As for canards, seems they were removed to decrease the RCS. but wikipedia says that they are optional.
One of the most noticeable differences from the Su-27M/Su-35 is that the canards have been removed, although there is an option for them to be added, such as on the Su-30 series.
 
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Okay first of all... upgrading chinese J-11 to MKI standard is not possible for pakistan because we need access to IAI and Russian technology and non will ever allow us.. Leaving European market.. now why will they be willing to sacrifice their air crafts and help pakistan build another 4.5 generation fighter with the help of their own systems?
Thats why i think J-11 is not a choice for pakistan... RAFALE IS!

sory dear,
dont drag, your RAFALE thing , into this sparkling thread!

Tandem twin seater version of J-11B under development, reportedly as the Chinese version of Su-30MK2/3. It is rumored that the letter S stands for Shuangzuo, meaning twin seater in Chinese. The existence of J-11BS is officially acknowledged by the Chinese government in 2007, and a large model of J-11BS was revealed public on June 9, 2007 during the opening ceremony of the new aerospace museum of the Harbin Institute of TechnologyHarbin Institute of TechnologyThe Harbin Institute of Technology , or HIT, is colloquially known as Hagongda . It is a technical university in the city of Harbin, Heilongjiang Province, China....at the 20-year anniversary of the establishment of its school of astronautics, where it is displayed. Some sources outside China have claimed that the successful development of J-11BS is one of reasons that China lacks the enthusiasm on purchasing Su-30MK3, but the Chinese government appears to be rather cautious, with official reports only claiming that the project is very promising, instead of declaring it is successful already.
Shenyang J-11: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

plz READ it carefully, they are almost there!:azn:
what we need , is not some different , kind to overall system for the birds, plz dnt bring your likes in to the thread!:hitwall:
thanks
 
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Please read the detail article from link

The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging


The J-10B appears as the next iteration of China's vaunted 4th Generation fighter and looks to take the J-10 to the 4.5 Generation level.

The differences that have been identified from the earlier J-10 include a DSI intake, similar to the one on the FC-1/JF-17. The nose is now oval, more similar to an F-16's and is slightly canted downwards. An IRST similar to the J-11Bs also feature on top of the nose. Slanted radome paint along with some of the other features suggest an AESA radar.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lHjnoEO3vOM/SfNDhsWNRbI/AAAAAAAAAMg/mzEFtVnHzLI/s400/j10b+f16+comparison+deino.jpg

A retractable refueling probe is likely, given the development of the J-10 thus far, and is possibly located on the port side, not visible in the latest photographs. The photographs also suggest new under-wing pylons. These appear to be strengthened for a variety of possible uses, ranging from larger drop tanks to ASMs.

The engine is likely to be either a redesigned WS-10A (B?) or possibly the WS-15, a new generation engine currently in advanced development. This would not only have higher thrust than the AL-31s, but also feature TVCs, giving the J-10Bs vaunted agility an even greater boost. The actual engine on the aircraft presently on the released pictures, is the AL-31.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has shown a great deal of interest in the J-10 project as a possible substitute for Western combat aircraft for its high end requirements. The PAF, however, wanted a more modern version. Just as the FC-1s (and before the FC-1, the F-7s) were significantly upgraded due to the PAF's push for improvements, the J-10 appears to be going through a similar phase. The reason for this is that the PAF has a far closer view of Western technologies and trends and thus can provide deeper insight than more insulated Chinese expertise. The J-10B in all likelihood has had major input from the PAF and is the FC-20 that the PAF has ordered.

According to well informed sources, the aforementioned delay is primarily as a result of engine issues. The AL-31 would create maintenance and logistics problems for the PAF, given the lack of a working relationship with Russia. The WS-10A/B has not met quality standards. This leaves the PAF high and dry for now vis-a-vis the J-10. Their engine options now are to either to wait for a more reliable WS-10A version or to go for the WS-15, a new generation engine with similar dimensions.

The delay in procurement is critical for PAF as it needs a quality high end to counter the larger IAF with her MKIs, Mirage-2000s and MRCA. With a new sensor rich environment dominated by AWACS on both sides and a large number of BVR platforms, higher altitude BVR engagements would become vital J-10s are ideally suited for such combat given their aerodynamics including low wing loading in an A2A configuration. The instantaneous turn rates achievable on the J-10 (or the Euro canards) are likely to give an advantage in such engagements, as opposed to the high wing loadings on the over-evolved F-16s which were essentially designed for turning dog fights rather than high altitude BVR slash and dash maneuvers.

With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India. Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.

The PAF is looking for a total of 150 high end aircraft like the F-16 Block 52s and the FC-20 (J-10Bs or J-10Ps). The FC-20s could be procured in greater numbers, depending on relations with the U.S. and the operability of the F-16s. The J-10Ps and the JF-17s make a perfect pair - one ideal for high altitude air superiority and deep strike missions while the other ideal as a true multirole fighter. Where the J-10 lacks in deep strike, the F-16s make up for it. Where the J-10s lack in CAS, the JF-17s make up for it. Where the JF-17 lacks in high altitude BVR engagements, the J-10s make up for it.

The J-10s, F-16s and JF-17s also fit into the AFDP-2019 requirements. The AFDP-2019 is the core document on the strategic planning of Pakistan's armed forces over 15 years. While this document is not available in the public domain, informed sources note that the PAF has been assigned procurement of only single engine combat aircraft. The J-10Ps/FC-20s coupled with the JF-17s and F-16s thus ideally meet these requirements.



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J-10 Vs F-16 Technical Comparison

The F-16 was designed from the outset as a dog-fighter. The moderate sweep of the wings and aspect ratios were ideal for this. The trade-off however, was greater supersonic resistance. The thrust offered by the two engine options on the F-16 is impressive even to this day. TWR in air combat is about 1.15, ensuring impressive climbing rates and sustained turn rates. As noted, the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance, not only in its wing design but also in its fixed air intakes. In supersonic flight, engine thrust is lost. While it can reach Mach 2.0, pragmatically it has poor supersonic performance.

While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived). The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.

Under modern BVR conditions and higher altitude combat, the J-10 is significantly superior to the F-16. This is also reflected in its higher instantaneous turn rates. The Mirage-2000s have been a point of major concern both for the Pakistanis and the Turkish air forces, because of these aerodynamic issues, despite the Mirages weak engines. The Greeks, who operated both the Mirage 2000 and F-16C considered the F-16 to be better at low altitude, low speed, hard turning fights, and Mirage 2000 to be superior at hi-hi.The F-16 would have to attempt to survive the first merge in an air combat scenario, which becomes increasingly suicidal with high off-bore sight missiles. BVR further compounds these problems for the F-16s. In previous eras, flying hi and fast was fine, but you often had to come down low to engage a low flying enemy aircraft. Today, that becomes less relevant with longer range BVR missiles and look-down shoot-down capabilities.

The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.
 
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now please don't tell me one should scramble one on one.interceptors are always greater than the intruders IAF would have this thing in their mind but my question is that why these great birds were intercepted by technologically far inferior vipers

now for the present topic aside maneuverability the main disadvantage will be j-11 RADAR...apart from that nothing else..
will you please elaborate this statement

are you kidding me
1 when MKI is heading towards PAK border GROUND radars pick it up first ...then they scramble f-16s etc, so it is visible to radar (ground or air) and ANY figther with decent radar can lock onto the mki ....you are putting your statement in such a way as to say that indians claimed mki cannot be locked on by an aircraft and paf aircraft locked onto ----so you are saying mki ia as good as block-15 f-16s ha LOL

2 i said that MKI has a great radar and if j-11 has a competitive radar it has good chances to survive against the MKI---and not to forget jamming pods ---they are very important as BLOCK II mkis are sure gonna have jamming pods with the AESA and engine upgrade
 
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Uselsss topic ... never happen!!

Buying J11 means directly purchase Russian Hardware....

10000 of Hidden Question...

Usless topic

About Rafale... better buying 15-18 Rafale rather thn buying 36 J10 because 50% different btw these 2 fighters especially QUALITY, Weapon Load etc...

J11 is a good fighter but still no result/Test... even No offer to Pakistan.

Thanks,
 
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Uselsss topic ... never happen!!

Buying J11 means directly purchase Russian Hardware....

10000 of Hidden Question...

Usless topic

About Rafale... better buying 15-18 Rafale rather thn buying 36 J10 because 50% different btw these 2 fighters especially QUALITY, Weapon Load etc...

J11 is a good fighter but still no result/Test... even No offer to Pakistan.

Thanks,

1- If the topic seems to you use ;less, thn kindly dont post here!
you guys never, seems to understand the whole QUESTION & thread!
its not , you go to buy, EID boots OR "CHAAPAAL" FOR EID, its DAM fighter aircraft?
even we,try to get rafale, do you have any idea, how long it will take?
sory , if you come back , again with this DAM RAFALE, THING! i will consider it as a RAW trolling! & i will report it.:angry::angry::angry:
 
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why do we always end up comparing the heavy weight category MKI to the feather weight boxer the JF.....let's stick to J11 vs MKI.....and well J-10 comes into a middle category fighter!!!

MKI and MKK are customised for specific purposes of diffrent airforces....however, one thing that the INDO-CHINA scenario has is high HIMALYA PEAKS!! now that means thinner air and a dogfight becomes harder and difficult....the question that arises is is the MKK or the MKI which one is less heavy and more maneuverable! given that both survive the initial merge i.e. the BVR salvos!!
 
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1- If the topic seems to you use ;less, thn kindly dont post here!
you guys never, seems to understand the whole QUESTION & thread!
its not , you go to buy, EID boots OR "CHAAPAAL" FOR EID, its DAM fighter aircraft?
:lol: clam down...
even we,try to get rafale, do you have any idea, how long it will take?
sory , if you come back , again with this DAM RAFALE,
Who told you that Rafales are not available to Pakistan? are you assuming yourself or too much blind faith for the Chinese? :cheesy: Trust me.... every solution for pakistan air force should not be china.. or else we are not even going to end up with "quality or even quantity" air force, but we do know that with the induction of good euro fighters like the "RAFALES" paf is at least going to have a quality edge! LAMO Why are we pakistanis pretending to be like Iran? i mean we are not isolated by the west or a hostile state!
 
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are you kidding me
1 when MKI is heading towards PAK border GROUND radars pick it up first ...then they scramble f-16s etc, so it is visible to radar (ground or air) and ANY figther with decent radar can lock onto the mki ....you are putting your statement in such a way as to say that indians claimed mki cannot be locked on by an aircraft and paf aircraft locked onto ----so you are saying mki ia as good as block-15 f-16s ha LOL

2 i said that MKI has a great radar and if j-11 has a competitive radar it has good chances to survive against the MKI---and not to forget jamming pods ---they are very important as BLOCK II mkis are sure gonna have jamming pods with the AESA and engine upgrade

HOW about it, ! i mean putting those
CAPTOR (ECR 90) multi-mode X-band pulse Doppler radar, developed by the Euroradar consortium. The multi-mode radar has three processing channels. The third channel is used for jammer classification, interference blanking and sidelobe nulling. Euroradar is led by Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems, with Indra of Spain, FIAR of Italy and EADS Defence Electronics of Germany. :azn:
 
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:lol: clam down...

Who told you that Rafales are not available to Pakistan? are you assuming yourself or too much blind faith for the Chinese? :cheesy: Trust me.... every solution for pakistan air force should not be china.. or else we are not even going to end up with "quality or even quantity" air force, but we do know that with the induction of good euro fighters like the "RAFALES" paf is at least going to have a quality edge! LAMO Why are we pakistanis pretending to be like Iran? i mean we are not isolated by the west or a hostile state!

sory, dear
i am getting fad up now!
stop it , STAY WITH THE TOPIC! RAFALES, ARE NOT THE topic here!
so plz start a new thread, instead & convince, the TOP brass of PAF, if you can?:hitwall:
 
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I thought Su-35 has 117S which is all aspect TVC.
Check this pic from AusAirPower.


As for canards, seems they were removed to decrease the RCS. but wikipedia says that they are optional.

Ausairpower is not a reliable source.. (according to professional Aussi defence experts).
And Su-35BM has no "TVC"...
 
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Okay first of all... upgrading chinese J-11 to MKI standard is not possible for pakistan because we need access to IAI and Russian technology and non will ever allow us.. Leaving European market.. now why will they be willing to sacrifice their air crafts and help pakistan build another 4.5 generation fighter with the help of their own systems?
Thats why i think J-11 is not a choice for pakistan... RAFALE IS!

IF we can find, avionics for JF-THUNDER, & can integrete it to a super level thn, evry thing is posible!:azn:
 
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