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What is your favorite Turkic Muslim Empire?

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  • Total voters
    48
:blah::blah:

Actually, that's what the Safavids told him, not an "Idea" he got by himself. And as i said, he made a distinction between Turks(Ottomans) and Persians(Safavids).
I already said I'm not going to keep on going when people are too stubborn to accept facts, whether they are Iranians or Turks.

"The Azeri Turks are Shiʿites and were founders of the Safavid dynasty" IRAN v. PEOPLES OF IRAN (1) A General Survey – Encyclopaedia Iranica

"Shah Isma’il I (1500-24), the founder of the Safavid dynasty of Azeri origin, made the Shi’a branch of Islam the official religion of the kingdom of Persia." ( Eastern Europe, Russia and Central Asia 2003. Europa Publications Staff)

"Safevids were not Iranians, but Turks." (David Ayalon. Gunpowder and Firearms in the Mamluk Kingdom: A Challenge to a Mediaeval Society, pp.103-104)

"In the sixteenth century there came into being a great Persian empire. It was founded by an Azeri Turk named Ismail, leader of a religious sect which dated from the early fourteenth century, had long been confined to the Ardabil district of the north-west, and merged with Shi’ism in the mid-fifteenth" (Hugh Seton-Watson. Nations and States: An Enquiry Into the Origins of Nations and the Politics of Nationalism)

want me to continue?

and by the way, i'm gonna read the books you referred to.
 
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"The Azeri Turks are Shiʿites and were founders of the Safavid dynasty" IRAN v. PEOPLES OF IRAN (1) A General Survey – Encyclopaedia Iranica

"Shah Isma’il I (1500-24), the founder of the Safavid dynasty of Azeri origin, made the Shi’a branch of Islam the official religion of the kingdom of Persia." ( Eastern Europe, Russia and Central Asia 2003. Europa Publications Staff)

"Safevids were not Iranians, but Turks." (David Ayalon. Gunpowder and Firearms in the Mamluk Kingdom: A Challenge to a Mediaeval Society, pp.103-104)

"In the sixteenth century there came into being a great Persian empire. It was founded by an Azeri Turk named Ismail, leader of a religious sect which dated from the early fourteenth century, had long been confined to the Ardabil district of the north-west, and merged with Shi’ism in the mid-fifteenth" (Hugh Seton-Watson. Nations and States: An Enquiry Into the Origins of Nations and the Politics of Nationalism)

want me to continue?

and by the way, i'm gonna read the books you referred to.

I actually tried to keep it to travelers , explorers during the time of the Safavid. Had i looked for modern ones the list of sources would be A LOT longer to support that they were in fact Persians with Iranian-Azeri origin.

No need to continue. As i said, this isn't going anywhere.
 
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I think what Anaoshak , is confusing is that the safavid king made a distinction between their Persian subjects and the turks ...

What do you think the movies like "Barareh" try to say ? the different treatment the Persians and turks received during those times...
 
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by the way, that list of empires is too short. there were a lot more turkic muslim empires like golden horde, buharia, seljukids and so on. i want them on the list too :) and i hope that they won't be hijacked too :bunny:
 
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In short , turkey will revolt and forget Turkism and by doing so they will wake iran from her Turkic coma too.
 
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Shah Ismail's (Khatai) divan, not in Persian, but in his native Azerbaijani Turkish.

asfbb.jpg


Bu sürahi dilbəri-rəna kimidir qaməti,
Ruh tək hər kim ki, rahin içər, artar rahəti.


Vəsfinin şərhin deməkdə nitqi yoxdur kimsənin,
Haq humayun eyləmiş bəzm içrə sahib dövləti.


Ləlü cövhərdən mürəssə qılmış anı haq tamam,
Bu səadətdən müdami kimsənin yox minnəti.


Gecələr məclis içində oturub ol sərfəraz,
Eylə mehmandır anın hər yerdə vardır izzəti.


Ey Xətayi, deməgil anın şərabın sən haram,
Sinəsinə nurtək dolmuş ilahın rəhməti.
 
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Don't worry , the never ending Turkic dynasties were all due to the Turkic / mongol invasions from far east. In the future there will be no more Turkic pride , and i'm sure it will start with turkey itself which was once seat to Byzantium and other Anatolian civilizations.
And you started trolling.
Only one answer, keep dreaming.
 
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I choose Mughal....although we did resist them at first....but under them Bengal became one of the most prosperous and wealthiest places in the world!
 
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Nope not interesting at all !

We're not looking at it through territorial nationalism !

Most of the Mughals were absolutely clueless & decadent !

Suleiman was building Universities & Institutions of learning across the Ottoman Empire & Shah Jehan was blowing away the Royal Treasury on an edifice like the Taj Mahal - Wondrously Worthless !


Plus the Caliphate was with the Ottomans !




Now you show me your true colors.

You are hereby stripped of Rank and and Honours too.

@Aamna14 since you agree with this traitor, same goes for you.

All other traitors of the GREAT MUGHAL EMPIRE watch and learn.
 
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Anaoshak, take your BS somewhere else.

And educate yourself.

"During the Safavid period Azerbaijani Turkish, or, as it also referred to at that time Qizilbash Turkish, occupied an important place in society, and it was both spoken at court and by the common people. Although Turkish was widely spoken in Safavid Iran this fact is rarely mentioned. Usually neither Persian nor European authors mention in which language people communicated with each other. The Turkish spoken in Safavid Iran was mostly what nowadays is referred to as Azeri or Azerbaijani Turkish. However, at that time it was referred to by various other names. It would seem that the poet and miniaturist Sadeqi Afshar (1533-1610) was the first to refer to speakers of Qizilbashi (motakallemin-e Qizilbash), but he, and one century later `Abdol-Jamil Nasiri were the exception to this general rule of calling the language “Turki.” The Portuguese called it Turquesco. Other Europeans and most Iranians called it Turkish or Turki. For the sake of simplicity and to avoid confusion we call the Turkic language used in Safavid Iran, Azerbaijani Turkish.

Throughout the Safavid period there were two constants as to Azerbaijani Turkish as a spoken language in Iran. First, it was and remained the official language of the royal court during the entire Safavid period. Second, the language remained the spoken language of the Turkic Qizilbash tribes and also was spoken in the army. Browne observed that the Safavid army’s war cry «was not ‹Long live Persia!› or the like, but, in the Turkish language, ‹O my spiritual guide and master whose sacrifice I am!’» Until 1590, the Qizilbash tribes had a hold on certain provinces (e.g. Shiraz: Dhu’l Qadr; Yazd; Afshar; Herat: Shamlu). This had consequences for how Azeri Turkish was diffused. During the 16th century this meant that Azeri was also spoken by various groups outside NW Iran, but after the break-up of the Qizilbash links with certain provinces Azerbaijani Turkish mostly withdrew to NW Iran in the 17th century, certain Turkic pockets remained in the rest of Iran.

As noted above, the fact that the court language was Azerbaijani Turkish of course promoted the use of that language in the capital cities (respectively, Tabriz, Qazvin, and Isfahan). In fact, at court more Turkish was spoken than Persian. In 1607, the Carmelites reported that “the Turkish language is usually spoken and understood and the Shah [`Abbas I] and chief men and soldiers generally speak in it. The common people speak Persian, and all documents and communications are in that language.” The court ceremonial was also in Azerbaijani Turkish. The Italian traveler Pietro della Valle wrote: «that the Qizilbash grandees told him that: ‹Persian is a very soft and sweet language, and really used by women for poetry, but Turkish is manly and fit for warriors; therefore, the shah and the emirs of the state speak Turkish.’»

Under Shah `Abbas II, the Carmelites reported that “Turki [not Osmanli Turkish] was the language of the court and widely used in Isfahan and in the north.” Chardin explicitly states about the Qizilbash, “these people, as well as their language, are so widespread in the northern part of the country, and later at court, and therefore, mistakenly all Iranians are called Qizilbash.” In 1660, Raphael du Mans wrote: “the every day language of Iran is Persian for the common people, [Azerbaijani] Turkish for the court.” According to Kaempfer, who was in Iran in the 1670s, “[Azerbaijani] Turkish is the common language at the Iranian court as well as the mother tongue of the Safavids in distinction of the language of the general populace. The use of [Azerbaijani] Turkish spread from the court to the magnates and notables and finally to all those who hope to benefit from the shah, so that nowadays it is almost considered shameful for a respectable man not to know [Azerbaijani] Turkish.” The French missionary Sanson, who lived in Iran between 1684-1695, states that Iranians regularly invoked the spiritual power of the king by using expression such as «qorban olim, din imanum padshah, bachunha dunim.» Azerbaijani Turkish remained the court language till the very end of the dynasty and Shah Soltan Hoseyn was even nicknamed yakhshi dir (‹It is good’), because that is what he said to any official who submitted a proposal to him, as he was not interested in matters of state.

Arthur Edwards, a merchant of the Muscovy Company reported in 1567 that four copies of the trading privileges granted by Shah Tahmasp I were made «by his Secretarie,» … «whereof two as I required, are in the Turkish tongue.» During the reign of Shah `Abbas I it is noted in Russian sources that “The great envoys (of Russia) desired in their talks to the courtiers [of the Persian Shah], Ikhtam-Davlet [E`temad al-Dowleh] and his colleagues that the reply of the Shah should be in the Turkish language but in Tatar script.” This was the logical consequence of the fact that in the 16th-18th century the Russian tsars employed a considerable number of secretaries to translate incoming and outgoing letters to and from rulers in Europe, Asia Minor and the Middle East. In 1789, the Russian court employed 22 of such translators, eight of whom knew the Tatar (Turkic) language, and some of them knew «the Turkish language,» which presumably was Ottoman Turkish. The Russian envoys and ambassadors that were sent to Iran all carried official letters written in Russian with a translation in «the old Tatar language.» In reply, the Safavid court wrote its official letters in Persian or «in the old Azerbaijan language.» In the 16th and 17th centuries the Russian court received more than 55 letters from the «Qizilbash kings» written in the «Persian and Azerbaijani Turkish languages.» In 1588, the Russian court for the first time wrote a letter in the Tatar language to the Safavid court.

In short, Turkic languages and dialects played a much more important role in Safavid Iran than what has been the accepted wisdom so far, while Azerbaijani Turkish in particular was widely spoken and written in Safavid Iran. It was not only the language of the court and the army, but it was also used in poetry, even by renowned poets who usually wrote in Persian. The Safavid shahs, many of whom wrote poetry in Turkish themselves, promoted its literary use. Also, Turkish was used in the court’s official correspondence, both for internal and external affairs.
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I read up on the sources after searching for the texts in Google, you should have done that too instead of copying and pasting from forums where Pan-Turks had been using the same text, and no sources posted, i did however find a small part by Willem Floor & Hasan Javadi. But not most.

@xenon54
You weren't kidding when you said "it looks like there is no possibility of a mature discussion on this issue.".

I'm Out, And back to topic, as i said :) The Ottomans are my favorite Turkic Empire.
 
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I actually tried to keep it to travelers , explorers during the time of the Safavid.

Read the above post then, you will like it. :D

Browne observed that the Safavid army’s war cry «was not ‹Long live Persia!› or the like, but, in the Turkish language, ‹O my spiritual guide and master whose sacrifice I am!’»

The French missionary Sanson, who lived in Iran between 1684-1695, states that Iranians regularly invoked the spiritual power of the king by using expression such as «qorban olim, din imanum padshah, bachunha dunim.»

I read up on the sources after searching for the texts in Google, you should have done that too instead of copying and pasting from forums where Pan-Turks had been using the same text, and no sources posted, i did however find a small part by Willem Floor & Hasan Javadi. But not most.

Are you freaking kidding me? The usage of Azerbaijani Turkish within Safavid Empire is a obvious fact, what language did Shah Ismail use? Can you give the answer to this simple question? Its something obvious yet we have to prove something to you here?
 
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It is true that Safavids spoke Persian in administration but does the fact we speak English here mean we are all British? That is stupid logic. Safavids origins were Turkic and today the direct descendants of the Safavids, the Azerbaijani people still speak Turkic and still have Turkic identity. I don't know why noisy Persians try to get between this? Probably butt hurt. Azerbaijani today will never use Persian in any of their institutions. Persians is ugly language. As linguist say, it is very incoherent and unstructural language. Our ancestors made many mistakes.
by the way, that list of empires is too short. there were a lot more turkic muslim empires like golden horde, buharia, seljukids and so on. i want them on the list too :) and i hope that they won't be hijacked too :bunny:
I didn't put Golden Horde and Seljuk because they were in different era. You can open seperate poll for that if you want. I opened poll about Mughals, Safavids and Ottomans because they were all existing in same time period and were connected to each other. The whole region was ruled by Turkic dynasties as you can see from the map in the OP.
 
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As said, provide sources please...who is "Browne"? (Edward Granville Browne who wrote a book about Persia? And who died in 1926?)
I'm trying to look for the sources of The French missionary Sanson....(Peré Sanson?)....

And I'm trying to find out where they made those comments , but i cant find anything so could you help me out? I actually provided the name of the books i referred to, the full name of the explorers,travelers during the time of the Safavids, from Europeans to Arabs and etc.


A Chronicle of the Carmelites in Persia: The Safavids and the Papal Mission of the 17th and 18th Centuries. Edited by: H. Chick


Amoenitatum exoticarum politico-physico-medicarum fasciculi v, quibus continentur variae relationes, observationes & descriptiones rerum Persicarum & ulterioris Asiae, multâ attentione, in peregrinationibus per universum Orientum, collecta, ab auctore Engelberto Kaempfero


Voyage, ou, Relation de l'etat present du royaume de Perse, Nicolas Sanson, 1695.

"Engelbert Kaempfer: Am Hofe des persischen Großkönigs (1684-1685)" Ed. Walther Hinz, Stuttgart 1984.


Relation du voyage de M. Gaudereau à Ispahan adressée aux supérieurs et directeurs du séminaire de Tours, 22.1.1691

Early Voyages and Travels to Russia and Persia By Anthony Jenkinson and Other Englishmen Volume 2 (M. A. Edwards)

courtesy of me to you :) hope you'll enjoy them. but then again, you believe safevids were achemenids' descendants :hitwall:
 
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