What is wrong with the Rafale?

[razgriz19]

the only problem with rafale is that it has a direct competitor...EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON!(which i think is better than rafale...looks, avionics etc)

 

[Peregrine]

Hi,
Not that it doesn't offer any state of the art feature, it is also overly priced. Countries have way better option to go with instead of Rafale

 

[Parashuram1]

Why do even want to Replace hornet's in the First Place?

Because they are getting old.. Well actually we want to replace our F-5s which have become obsolete and a few F/A-18s of earlier batches. For now, the plan is only to replace F-5s with 22 new units of one of the three contenders i.e. Typhoons, Rafales or Gripens. Personally, I would prefer the new Gripen NG edition for our air force that the Indians are being offered as it covers all our requirements:

Speed, Supercruise, excellent payload, good combat radius (since we are small country), cheaper than other two contenders, is from another neutral country (Sweden), single engine means easier maintenance etc.

Since most of our fighters are used for air policing more than potential air combat, I wish our government buys Gripens.

 

[Cityboy]

Because they are getting old.. Well actually we want to replace our F-5s which have become obsolete and a few F/A-18s of earlier batches. For now, the plan is only to replace F-5s with 22 new units of one of the three contenders i.e. Typhoons, Rafales or Gripens. Personally, I would prefer the new Gripen NG edition for our air force that the Indians are being offered as it covers all our requirements:

Speed, Supercruise, excellent payload, good combat radius (since we are small country), cheaper than other two contenders, is from another neutral country (Sweden), single engine means easier maintenance etc.

Since most of our fighters are used for air policing more than potential air combat, I wish our government buys Gripens.

Mr. Parshuram. there is no threat to ur nation. U dunt hv any enemy nation and ur neighbours also frndly 2 u. . Even u not a part of any military aliance. .btw .Gripen is good choice for switzerland..switzlnd do hv a lot of cash .

 

[Parashuram1]

Mr. Parshuram. there is no threat to ur nation. U dunt hv any enemy nation and ur neighbours also frndly 2 u. . Even u not a part of any military aliance. .btw .Gripen is good choice for switzerland..switzlnd do hv a lot of cash .

I don't think you are entirely correct, friend. There is a very sever debate going on in our parliament at the moment on whether to continue keeping the armed forces in active service or not as it is considered by the liberals as an "economic burden" (something I disagree).

There is never permanent safety anytime as you know in the world of politics. Therefore it is important to have at least a reasonable about of military force in no matter how Neutral a country might be.

The point is that the economic downturn has created some burden on our economy since our products cater to high end markets mostly and the cash crunch worldwide is a pain for our industries.

 

[pak-yes]

Because they are getting old.. Well actually we want to replace our F-5s which have become obsolete and a few F/A-18s of earlier batches. For now, the plan is only to replace F-5s with 22 new units of one of the three contenders i.e. Typhoons, Rafales or Gripens. Personally, I would prefer the new Gripen NG edition for our air force that the Indians are being offered as it covers all our requirements:

Speed, Supercruise, excellent payload, good combat radius (since we are small country), cheaper than other two contenders, is from another neutral country (Sweden), single engine means easier maintenance etc.

Since most of our fighters are used for air policing more than potential air combat, I wish our government buys Gripens.

Well it would be a waste of money.You have no enemies and you were not touched even in WW2.Why waste your money on useless things.

 

[karan.1970]

Is the below comparison still upto date.. specially with the price data

Indian MRCA competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Parashuram1]

Well it would be a waste of money.You have no enemies and you were not touched even in WW2.Why waste your money on useless things.

LOL.. You would get such a warm welcome from Gruppe für eine Schweiz ohne Armee (something like anti-militarists) parties here for saying that, friend.

 

[KEETARP]

the only problem with rafale is that it has a direct competitor...EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON!(which i think is better than rafale...looks, avionics etc)

Can you specify , which part/subsystem of Avionics you are talking of.
Bcoz i beg to differ, only thing which is a bit lower on Rafale is its T/W ratio and less powerful engine.

And many Indian members will surely get pissed off and pounce upon me but as it stands Eurofighter is not better than Rafale.

 

[Manticore]

The Rafale is an almost unparallelled achievement for a single nation, as equivalent fighter programmes have been undertaken by much larger companies or collaboratively by several nations. As an aircraft to meet French requirements (combining a robust carrier capability and good air-to-ground potential) Rafale could not be bettered, while the programme's unilateral nature afforded great focus, and protected it from many of the political factors which have so dogged the rival Eurofighter. Any problems (and those listed here are disputed) should be viewed in this light.

There have, however, been increasingly critical comments about Rafale from members of the National Assembly's Finance and Defence Commissions, and there have been reports of disagreements between Dassault and DGA about cost increases and obsolescence. According to Defence Analysis (p.17, Vol 8.No.12 December 2005) Dassault have called the RBE2 radar 'fatally flawed' alleging that its range was "inadequate" and averring that the Rafale therefore relied on AWACS support to overcome this. The DGA also described Rafale's OSF ("Optronique Secteur Frontal") as "obsolescent" and production has been cut back to just 48 units, rather than the planned number, which was to have been sufficient to equip all F1 and F2 versions.

While UK and German newspapers have been energetic in their criticism of Typhoon, Rafale has enjoyed a much gentler ride, and many of Rafale's problems (which have been similar in nature, scope and extent to those suffered by the rival Eurofighter) have seldom emerged until long after they were solved, or remain unsubstantiated rumour, though there have been exceptions. According to Defense News, Air Force Gen. Eric Rouzaud revealed that early deliveries of the Rafale were prone to a software glitch that cut out part of the flight system, requiring the pilot to hit the reset button. The fault has been fixed, Rouzaud said.

There were reports that problems with the "Central Processor" led to only three of five Rafales being delivered during 2004, and suggestions that the same problem led to a shortfall of deliveries (against the planned schedule) in 2005.

There was a two year delay in signing the production contract for the 59 F2 standard Rafales, and the order due to be placed in 2006 has dropped from 82 aircraft (65 AdlA, 17 Aéronavale) to just 66 (48 AdlA, 18 Aéronavale) (according to the Vincon Senate report). The Pintat report indicated that this reduced order has also been slipped to 2007.

Still subject to delays, the Rafale (once progressing well ahead of the rival Eurofighter) has still not entered full operational service with the Armée de l'Air, and less than a dozen are in use with the French Air Force for trials, evaluation and conversion training with EC330. Though the aircraft entered operational service with the Aéronavale in 2004 Flotille 12 still has only 9 Rafales (less than a full Flotille) and is currently limited to Air-to-Air combat (F1 software/hardware standard). There are concerns that operational loads (especially in the long range air to surface role) will be limited by the present engine's relatively modest thrust.

A "Post F3" configuration is now being discussed, this will be fitted with an active array radar, which is necessary to fully exploit the MBDA Meteor.

More controversially, some sources (including Francis Tusa's industry newsletter, Defence Analysis) maintain that the aircraft compares unfavourably with Eurofighter's Typhoon in the air to air role, though this is vigorously denied in other quarters. Though it uses a modern and extremely efficient canard Delta configuration, Rafale has been accused of being hampered by an old fashioned and 'cumbersome' Man Machine Interface, and it has been further suggested that this was the main reason behind the type's rejection by South Korea and Singapore.

According to Defence Analysis and Flight Daily News, the Singapore evaluation also reportedly revealed problems with Rafale's reliability and availability, and that the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise. Singapore was also reportedly unimpressed by Rafale's much vaunted "Omni role" capability. "Show us, properly" was said to have been the reaction, according to Defence Analysis. The lack of official comment by Singapore leads many to dismiss such criticism as unreliable hearsay, however.

If criticism of under-powered engines and the passive electron-scan radar (which Defence Analysis say is viewed by many as a technological dead end) is to be overcome, Dassault badly need to fund the advanced F3 variant, but this is unlikely to happen quickly without an export customer (according to Aviation Week and Space Technology). A fully-developed F3 would, however, seem much more likely to gain export success. In January 2005 it was announced that eight aircraft would be cut from French orders specifically to free up funding for advanced radar development, while Meteor integration is also being accelerated.

Whatever Rafale's supposed "weaknesses" it must be acknowledged that the type has been quietly gathering real operational experience in the air-to-air role since the first Rafale Ms were delivered to the Aéronavale, and this alone is a significant advantage, giving the type great credibility. Moreover, while development of some competing aircraft has often been delayed because manufacturers have been unwilling to press ahead "at risk" the relationship between Dassault and the French government and military has allowed the development programme to press ahead at a ferocious pace. Electronic Aviation - Dassault Rafale

 

[Manticore]

the actual air intakes were a compromise between more stealth inlets and higher performances inlets of the initial design (with supersonic cones, less stealth)
But the engine itself is well hidden by the inlet, and the first stage of the compressor was designed in order to reduce RCS

 

[Zarvan]

I want to know was Pakistan offered Rafale if yes why didnt go for it I mean beacause of economic promblems or Pakistan Airforce didnt liked the plane

 

[MastanKhan]

I want to know was Pakistan offered Rafale if yes why didnt go for it I mean beacause of economic promblems or Pakistan Airforce didnt liked the plane

Hi,

Rafale was supposedly the automatic choice of an air force that was flying the most french aircraft after the french airforce.

The aircraft was on offer to pakistan and paf researched this aircraft.

As for the time frame when this aircraft was offered and tested---it was way before the 2005 earthquake. At that time the coffers were full---.

Where paf screwed up was its situational awarenessof the arena----paf believed that peace deal with india would go through and we won't need any aircraft---it would be just a waste of money----.

That totally pi-ssed off france---. Pakistan had also scr-ewed france on the purchase of airbus---pakistan was all set to buy airbus and after 9/11---pak went with boeing with a false promise of direct flight from new york to karachi---pak fell for it and walked away from the airbus deal.

They never got the direct flight deal either.

France walked away from the radar deal for jf17---fckuked paf and pakistan real good----put the program back by 10 years----in defence procurement-----that is absolute death.

In any major weapons purchase---time is of essence----

 

[shanipisces2002]

Hi,

Rafale was supposedly the automatic choice of an air force that was flying the most french aircraft after the french airforce.

The aircraft was on offer to pakistan and paf researched this aircraft.

As for the time frame when this aircraft was offered and tested---it was way before the 2005 earthquake. At that time the coffers were full---.

Where paf screwed up was its situational awarenessof the arena----paf believed that peace deal with india would go through and we won't need any aircraft---it would be just a waste of money----.

That totally pi-ssed off france---. Pakistan had also scr-ewed france on the purchase of airbus---pakistan was all set to buy airbus and after 9/11---pak went with boeing with a false promise of direct flight from new york to karachi---pak fell for it and walked away from the airbus deal.

They never got the direct flight deal either.

France walked away from the radar deal for jf17---fckuked paf and pakistan real good----put the program back by 10 years----in defence procurement-----that is absolute death.

In any major weapons purchase---time is of essence----

So in other words it was the wrong decisions made by the Pakistan top brass now they have bad ties with french

 

[MastanKhan]

So in other words it was the wrong decisions made by the Pakistan top brass now they have bad ties with french

Hi,

The french have always been good to pakistan. Being the second largest user of mirage 3 / 5 aircraft---it was a natural progression for paf to go with the F1 and then onto M2k---. Paf dropped F1 and M2K in favour of F16----.

The french gave pakistan the Agosta sub with mesma propulsion system---which took the pak navy to a different pleateau---but then pak wants to go with the german subs---.

The MERCURIAL nature of pakistanis has created most of their problems---the paf is no different. With its bad choices and bad decisions---it is about 10--15 years behind where it was supposed to be.

After 9/11---from the jaws of victory---the PAF chose defeat---like so many other times.