What is there to celebrate?

[harish]

Despite all the shortcomings, we esteem what we have and what we are capable of.

As an Indian I know very little about Pakistan beyond what's in the media and to an extent forums like this. But one point keeps sticking out no matter which way you analyse Pakistan's situation. And that is not the age old Pakistan commoner meat in the Pakistan Polity and Army sandwich. It is not the terrorist bombs going off all over Pakistani cities and towns and villages as warrior pigeons come home to roost. It is not the Pakistan meat in the Afghanistan and India sandwich either, with US seasoning all around. Neither is it corruption or water or electricity or food or ethnic clashes or radical elements of society. Simply put, it is the Pakistani. How many Pakistani youth stay back in their country by choice and not lack of opportunity in order to make a difference? Is it not true that any Pakistani family with the means would send their kids off outside the country, first to study, and eventually to settle down and never come back. Yes the dollars and pounds do, but is that ever the same thing? Its very easy holding something in 'esteem' thousands of miles away, while you sit safe and secure in first world countries while bombs go off daily in your cities back home. Its equally easy to know what you are 'capable of' but a whole different ball game delivering on that promise. Take this forum for example and look around at our Pakistani brothers and see how many of them sport twin pakistani flags. Then do the same with the Indians here. And you will see the difference and know the reason why there is not much to celebrate. My apologies for being blunt here.

 

[paritosh]

Paritosh : The very points you mentioned for India also applies to China ie; Population and Military Ambition.

The difference, as i see, is the civilization fabric in India and Pakistan, have seldom been nationalist in action and Belief. Forget nationalist, our traits are more inwards looking (Self Centered). This has manifested in Ind-Pak political system as well.

The way I see it mate...
The Indo-Chinese model is a classic case study into the differences between ideals and practicality...
we founded our nation on very high almost impossible to achieve ideals...
providing an elaborate and a total democracy to a population that was through and through divided without consensus and illiterate at the time...
While the Chinese revolution was much more practical...over-bearing population can't depend on chosen representation to allocate scant resources...
I am very sure that given the way we are guzzling up precious resources and growing in numbers like a cancer...global semi-authoritarian socialism would be much needed in the near future...
I am sure most would not agree on this...

 

[paritosh]

I understand the author’s agony; he will likely die long before the great nation that his generation earned from the British is revived, current events perhaps fill him with despair.

I wonder how Jinnah or Gandhi would feel were they alive today? And an even more poignant question - considering how each country turned out would either of them endure once more and do it all over again?

I was born in the USA, the greatest nation on earth. I felt fortunate and proud until one day in 2003, when at the height of anti-French sentiment in the US my father who has an unmistakable French accent was attacked by a group of men in a state park. Fortunately my boyfriend and his friends were able to intervene and rescue my father. That one incident shook me to my core, and for the first time in my life I began to question the greatness of my country, question the notion that I lived in a civilized first world nation. Before then I hardly ever took any interest in current affairs, I assumed the nations we attacked, sanctioned or trifled with were evil, worthy of every hurt we caused.

Since the events of ’03, I stay informed, dispel myths, expose media bias contribute in any way I can to make my country great once more. And there are many others like me, people who give selflessly every day I witness unprecedented levels of social activism more and more people who recognize they have to give something back.

It may be too late for Roedad Khan but it is not too late for Pakistan. There is always something you can do for your country, for your community.

That is a very good post...
how do we define a nation to be truly great?
I have pondered over this...and yet can't come to a single satisfactory answer....the highlighted line in your post made the mental-argument-with-myself come back to life...
is it the GDP or the per-capita income...or equal representation in legislature....or the provision of maximum freedoms to the populace?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As an Indian I know very little about Pakistan beyond what's in the media and to an extent forums like this. But one point keeps sticking out no matter which way you analyse Pakistan's situation. And that is not the age old Pakistan commoner meat in the Pakistan Polity and Army sandwich. It is not the terrorist bombs going off all over Pakistani cities and towns and villages as warrior pigeons come home to roost. It is not the Pakistan meat in the Afghanistan and India sandwich either, with US seasoning all around. Neither is it corruption or water or electricity or food or ethnic clashes or radical elements of society. Simply put, it is the Pakistani. How many Pakistani youth stay back in their country by choice and not lack of opportunity in order to make a difference? Is it not true that any Pakistani family with the means would send their kids off outside the country, first to study, and eventually to settle down and never come back. Yes the dollars and pounds do, but is that ever the same thing? Its very easy holding something in 'esteem' thousands of miles away, while you sit safe and secure in first world countries while bombs go off daily in your cities back home. Its equally easy to know what you are 'capable of' but a whole different ball game delivering on that promise. Take this forum for example and look around at our Pakistani brothers and see how many of them sport twin pakistani flags. Then do the same with the Indians here. And you will see the difference and know the reason why there is not much to celebrate. My apologies for being blunt here.

First off let me address this oft repeated canard of 'poster sporting twin flags' that has by now become a frequent MO of many Indians and some Westerners aiming to de-legitimize opinions posted on fora like this one - the majority of the visitors to this site are from Pakistan, and I would argue that the ratio of Pakistani members (actively posting) based in Pakistan to Pakistani members (actively posting) based outside Pakistan is pretty even.

The reasons for such a large number of Pakistanis based outside the US posting on fora like these are multiple, but the main one is language. While English is widely spoken in Pakistan, it does not come close to the penetration of English one sees in India, often the neutral language of discourse for the various ethnic groups in India. In Pakistan Urdu is by far the most commonly spoken language - that combined with the prevalence of 'Urdu medium schools' (at least in the past) retarded the spread of English.

Pakistanis based outside Pakistan, the US, UK and Mid East specifically (which is where the majority of our overseas Pakistanis post from) obviously end up being more comfortable with English and therefore are more likely to participate in English fora like defence.pk. But there is a tendency to forget that many of these Pakistanis based abroad have immediate family living in Pakistan with whom they communicate frequently (sometimes daily) and visit frequently. We are talking about siblings, parents, cousins, etc. To suggest that most of these overseas Pakistanis are disconnected from events in Pakistan or have little care for the troubles in Pakistan is, therefore, an erroneous assertion.


Now on to your comments on how many Pakistanis stay in Pakistan and all of that - the situation in Pakistan today is no different than the situation in India not too long ago. Instability and lack of economic opportunity have a way of driving people to greener pastures, this isn't a Pakistan-specific phenomenon. Until 2007 at least, with 7+ % growth rates and none of the terrorism we see today, Pakistanis were returning to Pakistan to set up businesses and work in academia. The reforms undertaken by the Higher Education Commission had resulted in more centers of higher learning and there was a boost in Pakistani students, from a variety of socio-economic backgrounds, enrolling in those Universities and colleges.

Point being that much of what you find as cause for criticism is a cyclical phenomenon tied to economic growth and stability, true for all nations, and until 2007-08 the movement was towards Pakistan rather than away from it, and as the economy and law and order recover, and Pakistan is seen as politically stable through continuity of a particular system of governance (currently democratic), the tide will shift once again.

So yes, there is much to celebrate - to go by your logic Indians should have given up on India and resigned themselves to doom and gloom less than a decade ago given the dismal situation on both social and economic fronts.

 

[prithwidw]

First off let me address this oft repeated canard of 'poster sporting twin flags' that has by now become a frequent MO of many Indians and some Westerners aiming to de-legitimize opinions posted on fora like this one - the majority of the visitors to this site are from Pakistan, and I would argue that the ratio of Pakistani members (actively posting) based in Pakistan to Pakistani members (actively posting) based outside Pakistan is pretty even.

The reasons for such a large number of Pakistanis based outside the US posting on fora like these are multiple, but the main one is language. While English is widely spoken in Pakistan, it does not come close to the penetration of English one sees in India, often the neutral language of discourse for the various ethnic groups in India. In Pakistan Urdu is by far the most commonly spoken language - that combined with the prevalence of 'Urdu medium schools' (at least in the past) retarded the spread of English.

Pakistanis based outside Pakistan, the US, UK and Mid East specifically (which is where the majority of our overseas Pakistanis post from) obviously end up being more comfortable with English and therefore are more likely to participate in English fora like defence.pk. But there is a tendency to forget that many of these Pakistanis based abroad have immediate family living in Pakistan with whom they communicate frequently (sometimes daily) and visit frequently. We are talking about siblings, parents, cousins, etc. To suggest that most of these overseas Pakistanis are disconnected from events in Pakistan or have little care for the troubles in Pakistan is, therefore, an erroneous assertion.


Now on to your comments on how many Pakistanis stay in Pakistan and all of that - the situation in Pakistan today is no different than the situation in India not too long ago. Instability and lack of economic opportunity have a way of driving people to greener pastures, this isn't a Pakistan-specific phenomenon. Until 2007 at least, with 7+ % growth rates and none of the terrorism we see today, Pakistanis were returning to Pakistan to set up businesses and work in academia. The reforms undertaken by the Higher Education Commission had resulted in more centers of higher learning and there was a boost in Pakistani students, from a variety of socio-economic backgrounds, enrolling in those Universities and colleges.

Point being that much of what you find as cause for criticism is a cyclical phenomenon tied to economic growth and stability, true for all nations, and until 2007-08 the movement was towards Pakistan rather than away from it, and as the economy and law and order recover, and Pakistan is seen as politically stable through continuity of a particular system of governance (currently democratic), the tide will shift once again.

So yes, there is much to celebrate - to go by your logic Indians should have given up on India and resigned themselves to doom and gloom less than a decade ago given the dismal situation on both social and economic fronts.

Right, not so long ago Indians left India to seek for greener pastures outside. But as the economic scenario improved, lot among them are coming back. Incase of Pakistan, there is still some time left, before NRP(non resident Pakistanis) submit their foreign passports and return home. And this is not happeneing until atleast terrorism is eliminated from Pakistani soil.

 

[Windjammer]

As an Indian I know very little about Pakistan beyond what's in the media and to an extent forums like this. But one point keeps sticking out no matter which way you analyse Pakistan's situation. And that is not the age old Pakistan commoner meat in the Pakistan Polity and Army sandwich. It is not the terrorist bombs going off all over Pakistani cities and towns and villages as warrior pigeons come home to roost. It is not the Pakistan meat in the Afghanistan and India sandwich either, with US seasoning all around. Neither is it corruption or water or electricity or food or ethnic clashes or radical elements of society. Simply put, it is the Pakistani. How many Pakistani youth stay back in their country by choice and not lack of opportunity in order to make a difference? Is it not true that any Pakistani family with the means would send their kids off outside the country, first to study, and eventually to settle down and never come back. Yes the dollars and pounds do, but is that ever the same thing? Its very easy holding something in 'esteem' thousands of miles away, while you sit safe and secure in first world countries while bombs go off daily in your cities back home. Its equally easy to know what you are 'capable of' but a whole different ball game delivering on that promise. Take this forum for example and look around at our Pakistani brothers and see how many of them sport twin pakistani flags. Then do the same with the Indians here. And you will see the difference and know the reason why there is not much to celebrate. My apologies for being blunt here.

The list could get even longer but then we wouldn't want to miss the gravy train, hence i'll save you the irritating crunch of a bone when one bites into a burger, albeit posted elsewhere but the home grown relish is suffice to garnish your freshly served caviar. BTW, most of us were settled here before the banter of Shining India started shimmering our eyes.

Quit India? And a Zillion Reasons (also Visas) to Escape from Mera Bharat Mahaan? : Still Single in the City

 

[harish]

First off let me address this oft repeated canard of 'poster sporting twin flags' that has by now become a frequent MO of many Indians and some Westerners aiming to de-legitimize opinions posted on fora like this one - the majority of the visitors to this site are from Pakistan, and I would argue that the ratio of Pakistani members (actively posting) based in Pakistan to Pakistani members (actively posting) based outside Pakistan is pretty even.

The reasons for such a large number of Pakistanis based outside the US posting on fora like these are multiple, but the main one is language. While English is widely spoken in Pakistan, it does not come close to the penetration of English one sees in India, often the neutral language of discourse for the various ethnic groups in India. In Pakistan Urdu is by far the most commonly spoken language - that combined with the prevalence of 'Urdu medium schools' (at least in the past) retarded the spread of English.

Pakistanis based outside Pakistan, the US, UK and Mid East specifically (which is where the majority of our overseas Pakistanis post from) obviously end up being more comfortable with English and therefore are more likely to participate in English fora like defence.pk. But there is a tendency to forget that many of these Pakistanis based abroad have immediate family living in Pakistan with whom they communicate frequently (sometimes daily) and visit frequently. We are talking about siblings, parents, cousins, etc. To suggest that most of these overseas Pakistanis are disconnected from events in Pakistan or have little care for the troubles in Pakistan is, therefore, an erroneous assertion.


Now on to your comments on how many Pakistanis stay in Pakistan and all of that - the situation in Pakistan today is no different than the situation in India not too long ago. Instability and lack of economic opportunity have a way of driving people to greener pastures, this isn't a Pakistan-specific phenomenon. Until 2007 at least, with 7+ % growth rates and none of the terrorism we see today, Pakistanis were returning to Pakistan to set up businesses and work in academia. The reforms undertaken by the Higher Education Commission had resulted in more centers of higher learning and there was a boost in Pakistani students, from a variety of socio-economic backgrounds, enrolling in those Universities and colleges.

Point being that much of what you find as cause for criticism is a cyclical phenomenon tied to economic growth and stability, true for all nations, and until 2007-08 the movement was towards Pakistan rather than away from it, and as the economy and law and order recover, and Pakistan is seen as politically stable through continuity of a particular system of governance (currently democratic), the tide will shift once again.

So yes, there is much to celebrate - to go by your logic Indians should have given up on India and resigned themselves to doom and gloom less than a decade ago given the dismal situation on both social and economic fronts.

Thanks for the explanation. I buy your theory on English definitely. And as for the rest, I hope what you say is true and all power to you and your expat compats as well as Pakistan and native Pakistanis in general. I believe it would be good for India too in many ways were the educated cream of Pakistan to return back to take up the reins of their country. I am sure you of all people would know the feelings and emotions when you touch down on home soil.