What is 'Civilizational Continuity'?

[Developereo]

That common thread was Zoroastrianism.

Many Abrahamic (and ancient Egyptian and Greek) beliefs can be traced back to Sumerian legends (Epic of Gilgamesh, etc.). The ancient Hebrews borrowed many cultural aspects from the Canaanites (ancient Hebrews were actually polytheistic) who got them from Akkadian/Sumerian influences.

Zoroastrianism came much later, hence it, too, would have borrowed from ancient Sumer or, most likely, Babylon.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Rafi

Indeed Pakistan Zinda Bad !!!

Look bro., it is time we reclaimed our heritage which is greater than any people with possible exception of Egypt or Greece. Even that is debatable. Did you know that decimal system and what are called Arabic numerals are in fact from Multan in Pakistan?

When the Arabs were trying to figure out what use a camel can be put to, the European's were running around with flint spear in one hand and stone club in another our ancestors were building one of the most advanced civilization of it's time. Go walk around Harrapa or Mohenjo Daro and be proud.


Why else do you think the Indian's have their snout's up our posteriors?

So yes, Pakistan Zinda Bad.

 

[Rafi]

^^^^^

Akhenaten worshiped the Aten (the Sun) but he was a monotheist and one of the earliest ones.

 

[Bang Galore]

Zoroastrianism came much later, hence it, too, would have borrowed from ancient Sumer or, most likely, Babylon.

How do you assume that? Ancient Iranians had roughly the same religious beliefs as ancient Hindus. Zorastrianism shows some influence of the same with the Devas & Ahuras (asuras) have roughly the opposite connotation of Hinduism, the change being generally credited to Zarathustra. In any case, west of the ancient Iranians were the Mittani who ruled northern Syria & parts of Turkey. The Mittani were specifically connected to the Indo Aryans with their words showing strong relationship to Sanskrit. The Mittani worshiped the same gods as the ancient Hindus even invoking them in a treaty with the Hittites(Indra, Varuna & Mithra). Mithra(s), a minor god in Hinduism(connected with Varuna) would later become a major figure in Persian mythology (including in Zoroastrianism) & from there go to Greece with Alexander's army & would become a prominent God/cult figure in ancient Rome. The influence of the cult of Mithras on Christianity has already been well debated & no purpose would be served by repeating the same here. Therefore while some influence would show up from the west, surely similar influence would be seen from the civilisations in the east that ancient Persia was deeply connected to.

 

[Rafi]

How do you assume that? Ancient Iranians had roughly the same religious beliefs as ancient Hindus. Zorastrianism shows some influence of the same with the Devas & Ahuras (asuras) have roughly the opposite connotation of Hinduism, the change being generally credited to Zarathustra. In any case, west of the ancient Iranians were the Mittani who ruled northern Syria & parts of Turkey. The Mittani were specifically connected to the Indo Aryans with their words showing strong relationship to Sanskrit. The Mittani worshiped the same gods as the ancient Hindus even invoking them in a treaty with the Hittites(Indra, Varuna & Mithra). Mithra(s), a minor god in Hinduism(connected with Varuna) would later become a major figure in Persian mythology (including in Zoroastrianism) & from there go to Greece with Alexander's army & would become a prominent God/cult figure in ancient Rome. The influence of the cult of Mithras on Christianity has already been well debated & no purpose would be served by repeating the same here. Therefore while some influence would show up from the west, surely similar influence would be seen from the civilisations in the east that ancient Persia was deeply connected to.

You've just proved what I was saying, Civilizations are in a constant state of flux, because they are based upon human beings who are constantly evolving. Influences are shared, but the only people who can inherit something directly are the modern descendants.

Case in point - the Hellenic civilization influenced Europe and then the whole world, the Greek temple facade is even used for the White House.

But the Greek people are the only ones who own their history.

 

[Developereo]

How do you assume that? Ancient Iranians had roughly the same religious beliefs as ancient Hindus. Zorastrianism shows some influence of the same with the Devas & Ahuras (asuras) have roughly the opposite connotation of Hinduism, the change being generally credited to Zarathustra. In any case, west of the ancient Iranians were the Mittani who ruled northern Syria & parts of Turkey. The Mittani were specifically connected to the Indo Aryans with their words showing strong relationship to Sanskrit. The Mittani worshiped the same gods as the ancient Hindus even invoking them in a treaty with the Hittites(Indra, Varuna & Mithra). Mithra(s), a minor god in Hinduism(connected with Varuna) would later become a major figure in Persian mythology (including in Zoroastrianism) & from there go to Greece with Alexander's army & would become a prominent God/cult figure in ancient Rome. The influence of the cult of Mithras on Christianity has already been well debated & no purpose would be served by repeating the same here. Therefore while some influence would show up from the west, surely similar influence would be seen from the civilisations in the east that ancient Persia was deeply connected to.

What you say is correct. I was responding to the claim that the common theme in Abrahamic religions was Zoroastrian influence.

Judaism predates Zoroastrianism by a long span, so it cannot possibly be influenced by the latter, and most of the core myths of the Abrahamic faiths come from the Old Testament. It is more correct to say that Judaism was influenced by ancient Iranian beliefs which predate Zoroastrianism by at least a millenium.

However, your post also touches on a deeper point. There is evidence that the Akkadians were trading with ancient India in the 3rd millenium BCE, so it is not unreasonable to assume that there was cultural influence and raises the possibility that some Hindu gods could, in fact, be Mesopotamian in origin. It would be fascinating to see if anyone's done any analysis.

If we go back far enough, we are all continuing the same civilization. (Leaving aside the obvious Babylonian base 60 usage in time keeping, geometry, etc.)

 

[Rig Vedic]

By that yardstick, India's links with IVC are no more solid (and possibly weaker) than Pakistan's.

As regards Mohenjodaro and Harappa, that statement may be true. There are some proven architectural links with the Vedic civilization, but other than that the history cannot be traced.

From India's perspective the Indus valley is one of the river valleys that have been a part of the Indic civilization - the others being the Ganga, Brahmaputra, Narmada, Krishna, Godavari and Kaveri.

It is true that Sindhi, Punjabi and Urdu retain their Sanskrit foundations despite all efforts to substitute imported words for native ones.

For many Indians Sanskrit is a living heritage, in the sense that the thoughts, values and knowledge systems that were expressed in Sanskrit thousands of years ago continue to exercise a profound influence today. I am not saying that Pakistanis cannot share that heritage. However, in Pakistan, it has been rejected to a large extent, because of the conflicts with the more recently adopted Islamic identity.

 

[Rafi]

^^^^^
I don't think that is true Punjabi and Sindhi culture, music, poetry is very fiercely protected, (same for Pashtoon, Kashmiri, Balochi), to an outsider it may seem that the Islamic identity is at the forefront, but human beings are not automatons - our identities are multiple and complex, a person can be a Muslim, he is also a Punjabi, but he is a engineer, and likes to play with model train sets, see - that is just a few -

 

[Developereo]

I think a lot of Indians don't know that Pakistani society still retains quite a few Hindu customs (marriage, birthdays, etc.). We know fully well these are not Islamic customs, and nobody has any problems with it.

 

[Rafi]

I think a lot of Indians don't know that Pakistani society still retains quite a few Hindu customs (marriage, birthdays, etc.). We know fully well these are not Islamic customs, and nobody has any problems with it.

Water off a ducks back mate.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You've just proved what I was saying, Civilizations are in a constant state of flux, because they are based upon human beings who are constantly evolving. Influences are shared, but the only people who can inherit something directly are the modern descendants.

Case in point - the Hellenic civilization influenced Europe and then the whole world, the Greek temple facade is even used for the White House.

But the Greek people are the only ones who own their history.

An interesting point, but it seems equally valid argued from the opposite point of view. I could argue, for instance, that the Americans, the British, the Europeans, even the Indians and the Japanese, are heirs of Hellenic and Hellenistic civilisation. Their civilisation has more linkage than present- day physically-descended Greeks.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Water off a ducks back mate.

Not really. The point has registered, I think. But what adds an unreal element to our 'musings' is the evident fact that the IVC itself has no clear links to modern society in South Asia. If there are common civilisational aspects to the way people live in Sind and in Multan, for instance, or in Gujarat and in Rajasthan, on the other hand, those are drawn from quite a different common source.

There are no visible cultural heirs of the IVC. There may be heirs due to direct physical descent, but this is an heritage of little value, considering the years that intervene, and the numerous waves of migration and conquest that have swept through the region.

We have a decidedly strange situation, then.

We have several linguistic groups of strikingly similar cultural habits and ways of life. Two of these happen to live on the banks of a river which was the main seat of a vanished civilisation. Others are spread wider apart, some with a partial connection to that river valley, some distributed around proximate river valleys. All are united in claiming the vanished civilisation as their heritage, with little or no basis for such claims. Some point to their physical occupation of the same space; some to the stable genetic composition of the population, proof to them that the very individuals who created that lost civilisation live on in the genes of those who are there today. There is finally the emphasis on the inheritance of specific aspects, largely aspects related to theogony but including pottery, perhaps including linguistics, in the dissolution of the civilisation and the absorption of its cultural and physical aspects within a large area extending into the proximate river valleys, and from that to the entire physical space of the sub-continent.

The fact of the strikingly similar cultural practices that prevail among all these groups, those living in the hinterland of the river and those narrowly further away, are overlooked by one faction, and correspondingly overemphasized by another. The possibility of direct genetic descendants having been displaced during the repeated waves of migration is also ignored.

It seems finally to be nothing much more dignified than a squabble over ticketing rights to the wholly alien ruins.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What you say is correct. I was responding to the claim that the common theme in Abrahamic religions was Zoroastrian influence.

Judaism predates Zoroastrianism by a long span, so it cannot possibly be influenced by the latter, and most of the core myths of the Abrahamic faiths come from the Old Testament. It is more correct to say that Judaism was influenced by ancient Iranian beliefs which predate Zoroastrianism by at least a millenium.

However, your post also touches on a deeper point. There is evidence that the Akkadians were trading with ancient India in the 3rd millenium BCE, so it is not unreasonable to assume that there was cultural influence and raises the possibility that some Hindu gods could, in fact, be Mesopotamian in origin. It would be fascinating to see if anyone's done any analysis.

If we go back far enough, we are all continuing the same civilization. (Leaving aside the obvious Babylonian base 60 usage in time keeping, geometry, etc.)

An astonishingly perceptive insight. Considering that the first references to Dilmun were on tablets found within the temple of a Mospotamian goddess, there is every possibility some influence of Mesopotamian theogony on the cult of the goddess in South Asia, as far as non-Vedic aspects of the goddess are concerned. There is little or no evidence of such influence on god-cults; what is not lineally descended from Vedic tradition (and its antecedents in the Indo-Iranian and Mittanian traditions) can be economically traced to within the sub-continent itself.

 

[Rig Vedic]

^^^^^
I don't think that is true Punjabi and Sindhi culture, music, poetry is very fiercely protected ...

Which is certainly good.

We have to be aware that there is both folk culture and high culture. Both are important and linked to each other. For example, the Sindhi folk traditions of Jhule Lal (Jhulelal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) are certainly linked with deeper Dharmic philosophy.

Now we do know that folk culture (such as celebrating Basant) continues to an extent, although the practice is under attack. But even while retaining some folk traditions, it is possible to lose contact with the more abstract and intellectual traditions. I think that is what has happened in Pakistan.

I would welcome, for example, a revival in Pakistan of classical music or Yoga, which would reconnect you with the "high culture" of the Indic civilization.

 

[Rafi]

Which is certainly good.

We have to be aware that there is both folk culture and high culture. Both are important and linked to each other. For example, the Sindhi folk traditions of Jhule Lal (Jhulelal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) are certainly linked with deeper Dharmic philosophy.

Now we do know that folk culture (such as celebrating Basant) continues to an extent, although the practice is under attack. But even while retaining some folk traditions, it is possible to lose contact with the more abstract and intellectual traditions. I think that is what has happened in Pakistan.

I would welcome, for example, a revival in Pakistan of classical music or Yoga, which would reconnect you with the "high culture" of the Indic civilization.

Classical music is very much prevalent in the Punjab, and it is being preserved by the Sufi, which even the Punjabi's on your side acknowledge.

This classical Punjabi Virsa, is not as prevalent in your Punjab.

I have a problem with the term indic civilization, because of the modern indian state, it will instantly repel any Pakistani nationalists. Lets call it South Asian culture, we are an amalgamation of different influences - like I have mentioned before - Punjabi's and Sindhi's have had more interaction with other cultures such as the Baloch, Pashtoon, Persian, Central Asian, because we are at the periphery of South Asia and therefore more open to different influences.

Even ethnically we have many Pashtun, Baloch, and other migrants who have become part and parcel of our landscape. Anyone can become a Punjabi or Sindhi - by just living there, in a couple of years no one will care who you are, or where you came from.

An interesting point, but it seems equally valid argued from the opposite point of view. I could argue, for instance, that the Americans, the British, the Europeans, even the Indians and the Japanese, are heirs of Hellenic and Hellenistic civilisation. Their civilisation has more linkage than present- day physically-descended Greeks.

Not really because the Acropolis and other treasures are present on Greek territory, ideas can be appropriated, but physical structures should and do belong to the nation states that inherit them. The Pyramids belong to Egypt, even though the modern Egyptian does not retain the language, culture or religion of his ancient forebears.