What is a leader

[Dubious]

@Akheilos , apologies as the topic about qualities of a leader is a broad one, so i'll try to limit my set of arguments aimed just on the communication skills..and how the lack of such an attribute is affecting our people.

The leader of 21's century , let's see what is special about him.May be the rules of the game are still the same ,but the method of playing it has evolved with time.

I'll like Nelson Mandela to help me out here.

“Lead from the back — and let others believe they are in front.”
― Nelson Mandela

Put's an end to the whole lead from the front argument... though i know that strategy is more respectable, but is it possible/effective/feasible/affordable for our political leadership at this time that we are living in,with all the media boom,the press and institutions to work with.

Voice is a one big weapon a leader has got in his arsenal.Far more lethal ,that any of WMDs of the current times.You can build and reform a society ,close to the image you have got in your head.Or you can make them look like losers in a matter of minutes,with a single sentence.... There are examples (and you know them) but, let's continue with the argument.



All of them in our part of the world have dual faces.There is an inside job and there is always an outside one in front of the masses.Then upon that they don't know how to sell it.All of it relies on the gift of the gab, the communication skills to deliver your message effectively.All our so called "political leaders" fail to fall in that category.
I'm choosing the word Political leaders as one can sense that majority of this debate ,will revolve around our political leadership.As they are supposed to carry the utmost power to be able do anything, in a democracy.

To be a good orator and being confident about what you are saying comes naturally.That is the person who can:
1- Create his audience ----- when learning the basics about leadership qualities, and working on his instincts.
2 -Can reach his audience and motivate them to act---- when his people accepts him as a leader.


In the current times and in my quest to choose a relatively recent one,i have found the following:

(I want you to hear it from the start for the background, but if you have to skip it to the speech it begins at 10:40.)

Impressive and moving!
There will always be criticism. But doesn't he "sound" like someone whom one may want to accept as a leader,with his shortcomings?










About that how do we are supposed to know, as we haven't got one among us.
Global village ?
Yeah, but can we here actually reap the fruit of what the leaders of the world are doing for their people,unless our own sacred cows learn something from them.Indirectly ,may be yes.Directly it's a No.And it's all about the direct impact, that an individual living in a society like ours care about.It's the effect of the policies of his leadership that he has to bear with.It's like he's been managed like a play doh, as his future is remodeled in the hands of the leader his society has got.

• Next one thing, else being a good orator which can create a big impact is the Body language.A topic for some other time or day.

Please keep it running.

disagree wth musharraf havng vision wth respect to american threat.


the dictator needed Int support to legitimize his rule, what he landed us in is 70,000 dead Pakstan wth crippling state of affairs and above that the bastard thnks that he is needed, warna Pakistan ka Allah Hafiz. he can go suck up something.

p.s.

@Akheilos let me fnd my management books...

anyway, what I learned from Imran Khan as a Leader s that

never give up on your dreams, never compromse on your dreams, make people believe in your dreams, and play wth the attitude to win it as you got nothing to lose, since you are not going to back off from your dreams, thats the kind of person people like to follow.

let me find that Ted talk of Imran Khan, its really inspiring..

Hi,

The time for a conventional leader is long gone----. Now you have teams----political parties now work as organized gangs or syndicate----.

There is no more time to teach the masses---they need to learn and understand on their own---otherwise---they are where they are---.

As for Lal Masjid---the nation should have stood behind the state----. A fundo mullah cannot form a state within a state in the capital and the stupid Pakistani nations bows down to it----.

No compare it to the U S---Bush stated that Iraq has WMD's---public knew that they did not----but they did not say a thing against him to stop----over a million and a half Iraqis dead---whole of the Iraqi civilization wiped out---the nation of Iraq basically as it existed---has been wiped out and the American public did not stand up against the govt----because they know---even if the govt is wrong----you don't stand in its way because that will create chaos which will result in instability.

There are no leaders anywhere I the world---and none are going to come---.

In their lifetime---a person gets so many opportunities to succeed----same with the nations----. The thing is that as nations live longer than people----they go thru the cyclic changes----but then many a generations suffer thru that---like in Russia----from one chaos to another----.

Will read and comment when I get home right now am just browsing through

 

[MastanKhan]

disagree wth musharraf havng vision wth respect to american threat.


the dictator needed Int support to legitimize his rule, what he landed us in is 70,000 dead Pakstan wth crippling state of affairs and above that the bastard thnks that he is needed, warna Pakistan ka Allah Hafiz. he can go suck up something.

p.s.

@Akheilos let me fnd my management books...

anyway, what I learned from Imran Khan as a Leader s that

never give up on your dreams, never compromse on your dreams, make people believe in your dreams, and play wth the attitude to win it as you got nothing to lose, since you are not going to back off from your dreams, thats the kind of person people like to follow.

let me find that Ted talk of Imran Khan, its really inspiring..

Sir,

Not him---but it was you---your family---mother brother sisters uncles father---every one that is responsible in the killing of 70000 Pakistanis.

You are the stupidest and the dumbest nation on the face of this earth---only clever for your own sake but then not.

When it takes a nation 12 years to recognize their enemy----when you have the mentality that there is nothing wrong till someone near and dear to you dies before you take any action----there is nothing but a dark hole of despair and depravity for the likes of you and the nation that you are living in.

When even after 14 years you do not have the ability to clear your mind of the blunders that you as a nation committed by not taking a stand against the terrorists sooner---you as a person and you as a nation deserve what you got.

Sorry I would have to disagree here. ALLAH did not command that Kommando leader to do an NRO? Or did that leader ask people of Pakistan to suggest possible clauses of NRO? And what kind of leader would play in hands of Chaudhries who require speech therapy before opening their mouth in public, and that too when you speak of visionary leader?

For topic:

For me humility is the key quality of a leader, that would differentiate a leader from a dictator to start with, and it would attract the followers and respect of the people. The other attributes would include truthfulness, honesty, courage, vision, patience, steadfastness, decision making ability and to stand by his decisions, empathy for his people, knowing his people, knowing his weaknesses, willingness to accept the failure and faults and courage to try again and improve, motivational,not afraid of sacrificing personal desires and wishes, always will be leading from the front, and best thing he would not let his followers feel the heat that he faces.


P.S: Education is not necessary for a leader, he can be an illiterate.

Hi,

Well then the thing is don't corner a good person----because in his moment of despair he might err.

In our sales business we have a saying--- work with successful people---work with those who are lucky---work with those in whose surrounding good things are happening and you will also benefit from being in the close proximity.

Which mean-----in some peoples destiny good things happen---stick with them---. Pakistan never had better times than during Musharraf period----.

The only thing that you had to do was to kill the terrorists in the first 3 to 6 months---all of them.

Musharraf's failure was not in signing with the americans---his failure was that he did not provide any justice to the people----. He was very weak in enforcing capital punishements----.

He was the one who stopped the lashing of the criminals----. That was the true reason for his down fall----a lack of justice.

 

[Dubious]

“Lead from the back — and let others believe they are in front.”
― Nelson Mandela

Put's an end to the whole lead from the front argument... though i know that strategy is more respectable, but is it possible/effective/feasible/affordable for our political leadership at this time that we are living in,with all the media boom,the press and institutions to work with.

Honestly speaking it doesnt matter where you lead from....as long as you know how to lead...

As for our media...it is plain shitty it is comparable to Indian shitty media..very unprofessional

As for our politicians they are not human material....All they know is to put themselves in front- that is 1 of the points mentioned here in many different angles!

Voice is a one big weapon a leader has got in his arsenal.Far more lethal ,that any of WMDs of the current times.You can build and reform a society ,close to the image you have got in your head.Or you can make them look like losers in a matter of minutes,with a single sentence.... There are examples (and you know them) but, let's continue with the argument.

Hence why communication is also repeated and not just once and not 1 form but in different form

All of them in our part of the world have dual faces.

Honestly speaking it is everywhere....Just that Western media is MOSTLY controlled by FEW people, some of whom are in politics while others are the campaign sponsors of politicians and a very small portion actually are what media was formulated for in the first place (raise awareness against bad and spread news of good)

There is an inside job and there is always an outside one in front of the masses.

It is the case everywhere...Quran warned us of Hypocrites..they are so common now that it is amazing how ignorantly we did not heed the warning

.All of it relies on the gift of the gab, the communication skills to deliver your message effectively.All our so called "political leaders" fail to fall in that category.

Honestly speaking...they have misused this to cause media wars instead of utilizing communication for a progressing nation

I'm choosing the word Political leaders as one can sense that majority of this debate ,will revolve around our political leadership.As they are supposed to carry the utmost power to be able do anything, in a democracy.

Yes I am aware....Hence why I put my idea in quotes to separate them from the real article.....

The sad part is absolute power corrupts absolutely

To be a good orator and being confident about what you are saying comes naturally.That is the person who can:
1- Create his audience ----- when learning the basics about leadership qualities, and working on his instincts.
2 -Can reach his audience and motivate them to act---- when his people accepts him as a leader.

Well, basically....spreading a msg is poorly understood in Pakistan....which only makes 1/20 of the leadership qualities....Utilizing the msg the ability is what is dead and is actually the key!

There will always be criticism. But doesn't he "sound" like someone whom one may want to accept as a leader,with his shortcomings?

1 of the key things practiced in West is the ability to deliver...In Pakistan presentations are soo last min that people dont catch the purpose nor make it their strong point....

Though I have heard some impressive ones from Pakistan and some really shitty ones from the West...However, presentations are the building blocks of confidence ...the ability to tell someone/ teach someone who isnt familiar with your field with patience is the key to good communication....

On the other hand, to inspire with words of wisdom and make you feel good (both of which are in the few posts on the 1st page) are what Obama and basically any candidate in the West learned and keeps it going...In Pakistan this side is only tapped into during pre election campaigns and forgotten later...Hence, makes them closer to a liar than a leader!

About that how do we are supposed to know, as we haven't got one among us.

We do, they just dont take politics as their field.....Basically such people like many on this thread have pointed out wont run long in politics and hence no one gives them a 2nd glance though they exist!

When your political system is as dirty as can be .....How can good people come to people's notice coz the system sustains shit and sieves out the good!

never give up on your dreams, never compromse on your dreams, make people believe in your dreams, and play wth the attitude to win it as you got nothing to lose, since you are not going to back off from your dreams, thats the kind of person people like to follow.

Yes I agree he has some criteria that are mentioned there....

HOWEVER, he does lack alot of others....

1 that he lacks is experience.....in a way it kind of clouds his ability to maintain what the party started with - to kill VIP structure but now he has 1 too many rejectees of other parties as parasites!

Mind you this alone can bring him down without anyone playing foul!

Sadly without the help of these rejectees, one cant make a politicians as we have sheep - not until the feudal system dies, we wont know who REALLY has qualities coz they are masked by such leaches!

IK has what one can say CHARISMA....it is not found in everyone but it needs to be utilized properly or else it will be misused by others and taken for a ride!

Hello

The time for a conventional leader is long gone----. Now you have teams----political parties now work as organized gangs or syndicate----.

Yea to a certain extend it can be seen as that

There is no more time to teach the masses---they need to learn and understand on their own---otherwise---they are where they are---.

No one actually ever thought them....It takes one with thinking ability to actually think outside the box which you expect....it is not an inborn behaviour but a learned one and when you have only been seeing shit, you cant really learn from thin air....

You see NO ONE has lead the country after Jinnah...everyone came and ONLY established THEIR needs, bent the laws to THEIR needs....the need of a human or a nation was NEVER addressed!

Even in the 21st century PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS had to get signatures from people to appeal to the stupid minority sitting in the parliament to show them HEY BUDDY your child is studying in the West and in the 21st century you arent even giving 60% of the poor THEIR BASIC rights to education (food, clothing and shelter is another world altogether)

As for Lal Masjid---the nation should have stood behind the state----. A fundo mullah cannot form a state within a state in the capital and the stupid Pakistani nations bows down to it----.

When the whole of the elite CAPITALIZES on the stupidity and REFUSE to educate them....how do you expect the nation to progress?

No compare it to the U S---Bush stated that Iraq has WMD's---public knew that they did not----but they did not say a thing against him to stop----over a million and a half Iraqis dead---whole of the Iraqi civilization wiped out---the nation of Iraq basically as it existed---has been wiped out and the American public did not stand up against the govt----because they know---even if the govt is wrong----you don't stand in its way because that will create chaos which will result in instability.

SO you want us to repeat that genocide? What about the very fact that Afghanistan is ALSO destroyed and America is still there? Do you think after such a huge investment, they wont try to capitalize something in some form?

That is how some see it and favour the Taliban only not with the state but with brainwashed version of something they started calling Islam...

There are no leaders anywhere I the world---and none are going to come---.

I beg to differ....There are none yes true because BS is at the top

None gonna come - not sure but I believe ALLAH will send his rahmah!

In their lifetime---a person gets so many opportunities to succeed----same with the nations----. The thing is that as nations live longer than people----they go thru the cyclic changes----but then many a generations suffer thru that---like in Russia----from one chaos to another----.

Honestly speaking, I found the communist system effective.... at least no one went home hungry

 

[MastanKhan]

Honestly speaking it doesnt matter where you lead from....as long as you know how to lead...

As for our media...it is plain shitty it is comparable to Indian shitty media..very unprofessional

As for our politicians they are not human material....All they know is to put themselves in front- that is 1 of the points mentioned here in many different angles!


Hence why communication is also repeated and not just once and not 1 form but in different form


Honestly speaking it is everywhere....Just that Western media is MOSTLY controlled by FEW people, some of whom are in politics while others are the campaign sponsors of politicians and a very small portion actually are what media was formulated for in the first place (raise awareness against bad and spread news of good)


It is the case everywhere...Quran warned us of Hypocrites..they are so common now that it is amazing how ignorantly we did not heed the warning


Honestly speaking...they have misused this to cause media wars instead of utilizing communication for a progressing nation


Yes I am aware....Hence why I put my idea in quotes to separate them from the real article.....

The sad part is absolute power corrupts absolutely


Well, basically....spreading a msg is poorly understood in Pakistan....which only makes 1/20 of the leadership qualities....Utilizing the msg the ability is what is dead and is actually the key!


1 of the key things practiced in West is the ability to deliver...In Pakistan presentations are soo last min that people dont catch the purpose nor make it their strong point....

Though I have heard some impressive ones from Pakistan and some really shitty ones from the West...However, presentations are the building blocks of confidence ...the ability to tell someone/ teach someone who isnt familiar with your field with patience is the key to good communication....

On the other hand, to inspire with words of wisdom and make you feel good (both of which are in the few posts on the 1st page) are what Obama and basically any candidate in the West learned and keeps it going...In Pakistan this side is only tapped into during pre election campaigns and forgotten later...Hence, makes them closer to a liar than a leader!




We do, they just dont take politics as their field.....Basically such people like many on this thread have pointed out wont run long in politics and hence no one gives them a 2nd glance though they exist!

When your political system is as dirty as can be .....How can good people come to people's notice coz the system sustains shit and sieves out the good!


Yes I agree he has some criteria that are mentioned there....

HOWEVER, he does lack alot of others....

1 that he lacks is experience.....in a way it kind of clouds his ability to maintain what the party started with - to kill VIP structure but now he has 1 too many rejectees of other parties as parasites!

Mind you this alone can bring him down without anyone playing foul!

Sadly without the help of these rejectees, one cant make a politicians as we have sheep - not until the feudal system dies, we wont know who REALLY has qualities coz they are masked by such leaches!

IK has what one can say CHARISMA....it is not found in everyone but it needs to be utilized properly or else it will be misused by others and taken for a ride!

Hello


Yea to a certain extend it can be seen as that


No one actually ever thought them....It takes one with thinking ability to actually think outside the box which you expect....it is not an inborn behaviour but a learned one and when you have only been seeing shit, you cant really learn from thin air....

You see NO ONE has lead the country after Jinnah...everyone came and ONLY established THEIR needs, bent the laws to THEIR needs....the need of a human or a nation was NEVER addressed!

Even in the 21st century PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS had to get signatures from people to appeal to the stupid minority sitting in the parliament to show them HEY BUDDY your child is studying in the West and in the 21st century you arent even giving 60% of the poor THEIR BASIC rights to education (food, clothing and shelter is another world altogether)


When the whole of the elite CAPITALIZES on the stupidity and REFUSE to educate them....how do you expect the nation to progress?


SO you want us to repeat that genocide? What about the very fact that Afghanistan is ALSO destroyed and America is still there? Do you think after such a huge investment, they wont try to capitalize something in some form?

That is how some see it and favour the Taliban only not with the state but with brainwashed version of something they started calling Islam...


I beg to differ....There are none yes true because BS is at the top

None gonna come - not sure but I believe ALLAH will send his rahmah!


Honestly speaking, I found the communist system effective.... at least no one went home hungry

Hi,

Is this a learning experience that you want or do you want to argue with me----.

Ignorance of the law does not mean that you can excused of the crime----.

Nobody needs to teach the masses----. This is an INHERENT trait amongst the human beings---. This is a part of the GENETIC makeup of the society---. The masses need to learn on their own---.

This is your thread---you need to do a little better job in leading the thread---the only thing you are doing is riding on the comments of others----

You may chose to beg to differ about no more leaders coming thru---but before you do that---share with us your experience in life----you professional and work experience---your management experiences and the likes.

You are just talking about communist experience----you have absolutely no clue how traumatic and devastating that experience was---just don't go in that direction.

The problems that you are talking about are simpler than you think---- Just provide the rule of law and enforce order in Pakistan----majority of your problems will be gone---.

You are looking for solutions were there are none----. All problems in life and of nations start from the lack of rule of law and the lack of enforcement of order in the lives of masses----period.

 

[Dubious]

Hi,

Is this a learning experience that you want or do you want to argue with me----.

Didnt know my POV was asking for an argument over a discussion?

Ignorance of the law does not mean that you can excused of the crime----.

Ignorance of the law can only be pinned on one KNOWING the law...Many PEOPLE of Pakistan dont even know the basic laws: from what the rape laws which DO NOT include asking for 4 women....This was corrected but MANY dont know it

Many dont even know what high treason is and when a politician commits it they justify it.

Many dont even know what a nation is as everyone is too busy fighting over province or ethnicity!

Fair enough ignorance is bad...But what lifts ignorance? Surely not natural course...Coz if that were the case, God wouldnt send msgrs but would wait for generations to die out and learn themselves through magic or over time

Nobody needs to teach the masses----. This is an INHERENT trait amongst the human beings---. This is a part of the GENETIC makeup of the society---. The masses need to learn on their own---.

There is no such gene for heavenly guidance!

This is your thread---you need to do a little better job in leading the thread---the only thing you are doing is riding on the comments of others----

Its called picking one's brain....

I can lead but how many will follow is dependent on who is interested in what.. I on the other hand am interested in knowing a common Pakistani.....Not one who has lived abroad, coz I have done the same ; Not one who is of the elite - coz that doesnt make up the majority ; not one who has connections - again a minority who doesnt make up the COMMON Pakistani

2ndly, I can lead the thread but for that I need to know who I am leading- a leader knows his people - I on the other hand dont know the common Pakistani!

You may chose to beg to differ about no more leaders coming thru---but before you do that---share with us your experience in life----you professional and work experience---your management experiences and the likes.

My experience shouldnt count as much as my dedication...THIS is 1 of the major reasons we keep re electing EXPERIENCED NS and PPP or EXPERIENCED wadera and following them like sheep and voting whomever they put their stamp on.....

and also the reason why OUR NATION follows EXPERIENCED molvi uncle from the gali over a one who has a degree in Islamic teachings from a school!

also the reason why EXPERIENCED feudal lords still have VAST amount of ILLEGAL LAND AND NO ONE says anything

Also why EXPERIENCED goonday are powerful and influential with followers!

and not giving way to NEW parties! Not giving NEW ideas nor new people a chance is OUR BIGGEST MISTAKE!

You are just talking about communist experience----you have absolutely no clue how traumatic and devastating that experience was---just don't go in that direction.

My exact words:

I found the communist system effective.... at least no one went home hungry

Keep them as they are...ONLY reason was the equal distribution NOTHING else! I never supported it terrorizing/ traumatizing people - Not that SYSTEMS no a days dont traumatize people!

Not getting a job based on your ethnicity is traumatizing
Not getting a place coz you dont fit the quota even if you scored the highest in the board exam is devastating too!
Not getting anywhere no matter how much you work coz you dont know influential people is not exactly shining on us!

Just provide the rule of law and enforce order in Pakistan-

When the courts, justice system, police, lawyers all the way to the judge are corrupt how do you bring it up to them? Hello you all are corrupt lets improve you lot? Here are a list of laws you need to abide to- Yes you wont get free Mercedes / wont make millions in few mths but it will be good for the people?

You are looking for solutions were there are none----.

This type of attitude exists in our nation where they think a lesser evil (NS) is better than (PPP) instead of looking for improvement you settle with something thrown at you?

All problems in life and of nations start from the lack of rule of law and the lack of enforcement of order in the lives of masses----period.

If you have made up your mind what are you doing here? Flexibility is 1 thing any leader should have, and another is a vision and missions to get there as well as courage not cowardly stating you are always right...The ability to be humble is a plus point

@MastanKhan as you can see in 1 of my posts:

What makes it possible for people who might seem ordinary to achieve great things?
Fact: More than 50% of all CEOs of Fortune 500 companies had C or C- averages in college
Fact: Nearly 75% of all U.S. Presidents were in the bottom half of their school classes
Fact: More than 50% of all millionaires entrepreneurs never finished college
They All Had Passion, It Makes A Difference!

Apparently, experience doesnt play a MAJOR role in leading...it plays some role but not a major one...However, one's humble attitude would because that comes about with the ability to see your own faults and work on them...

 

[Dubious]

 

[MastanKhan]

Didnt know my POV was asking for an argument over a discussion?
Ignorance of the law can only be pinned on one KNOWING the law...Many PEOPLE of Pakistan dont even know the basic laws: from what the rape laws which DO NOT include asking for 4 women....This was corrected but MANY dont know it

Many dont even know what high treason is and when a politician commits it they justify it.

Many dont even know what a nation is as everyone is too busy fighting over province or ethnicity!

Fair enough ignorance is bad...But what lifts ignorance? Surely not natural course...Coz if that were the case, God wouldnt send msgrs but would wait for generations to die out and learn themselves through magic or over time


There is no such gene for heavenly guidance!


Its called picking one's brain....

I can lead but how many will follow is dependent on who is interested in what.. I on the other hand am interested in knowing a common Pakistani.....Not one who has lived abroad, coz I have done the same ; Not one who is of the elite - coz that doesnt make up the majority ; not one who has connections - again a minority who doesnt make up the COMMON Pakistani

2ndly, I can lead the thread but for that I need to know who I am leading- a leader knows his people - I on the other hand dont know the common Pakistani!


My experience shouldnt count as much as my dedication...THIS is 1 of the major reasons we keep re electing EXPERIENCED NS and PPP or EXPERIENCED wadera and following them like sheep and voting whomever they put their stamp on.....

and also the reason why OUR NATION follows EXPERIENCED molvi uncle from the gali over a one who has a degree in Islamic teachings from a school!

also the reason why EXPERIENCED feudal lords still have VAST amount of ILLEGAL LAND AND NO ONE says anything

Also why EXPERIENCED goonday are powerful and influential with followers!

and not giving way to NEW parties! Not giving NEW ideas nor new people a chance is OUR BIGGEST MISTAKE!


My exact words:


Keep them as they are...ONLY reason was the equal distribution NOTHING else! I never supported it terrorizing/ traumatizing people - Not that SYSTEMS no a days dont traumatize people!

Not getting a job based on your ethnicity is traumatizing
Not getting a place coz you dont fit the quota even if you scored the highest in the board exam is devastating too!
Not getting anywhere no matter how much you work coz you dont know influential people is not exactly shining on us!


When the courts, justice system, police, lawyers all the way to the judge are corrupt how do you bring it up to them? Hello you all are corrupt lets improve you lot? Here are a list of laws you need to abide to- Yes you wont get free Mercedes / wont make millions in few mths but it will be good for the people?


This type of attitude exists in our nation where they think a lesser evil (NS) is better than (PPP) instead of looking for improvement you settle with something thrown at you?


If you have made up your mind what are you doing here? Flexibility is 1 thing any leader should have, and another is a vision and missions to get there as well as courage not cowardly stating you are always right...The ability to be humble is a plus point

@MastanKhan as you can see in 1 of my posts:

What makes it possible for people who might seem ordinary to achieve great things?
Fact: More than 50% of all CEOs of Fortune 500 companies had C or C- averages in college
Fact: Nearly 75% of all U.S. Presidents were in the bottom half of their school classes
Fact: More than 50% of all millionaires entrepreneurs never finished college
They All Had Passion, It Makes A Difference!

Apparently, experience doesnt play a MAJOR role in leading...it plays some role but not a major one...However, one's humble attitude would because that comes about with the ability to see your own faults and work on them...

Hi,

Did I ever tell you the story about the flea that lived in the ear of a massive bull elephant in the veld in Africa----.

All your discussion is argumentative----you are just riding on other people's comments----which mean that you have nothing original to say ---.

If you do not have the ability to lead the thread that you started---then it is better to follow----listen and learn.

People in the U S also do not know the law, but they do know that they will get justice and there is rule of law in state of the union---anytime day or anytime night---.

Looking from your posts so far---you are equally confused about the problems about your motherland---.

The reasons for conversion to Islam 1400 years ago and the reason for a good law abiding state have not changed since then----.


1. order in the society by enforcing the rule of law

2. justice for one justice for all

3. freedom of speech

4. equality for all

Now---at this stage no leader is going to come and do all this stuff-----what you would need to do to arrest the nation back from the thugs----you would need " a cleanup crew---a janitorial service " that can go in and take out the corrupt politicians and your so called waderas one at a time and sometimes two----.

You have to understand that the pinnacle of corruption that they have attained---these corrupt politicians will not give up easy---.

And the sink hole that the masses have gotten themselves into---they ain't coming out of it just like that---education or no education---it is in the mind set----Pakistanis are an extremely thick headed people---simple education won't help them.

That is where Musharraf proved to be a COWARD----. My brother told him what too do----after he got kicked out---he says Mian Saab aap sahi keh rahey thay---well it was too ate by then.

Hi,

That is an honorable trait---that shows character.

 

[Dubious]

What a worthless answer to my post-----. Did I ever tell you the story about the flea that lived in the ear of a massive bull elephant in the veld in Africa----.

I have heard something similar

All your discussion is argumentative----you are just riding on other people's comments----which mean that you have nothing original to say ---.

Not at all I leave enough space to for people to add comments....

As for riding on other's comments - who has commented on this thread enough to ride? For me it is called picking one's brain...Since I am not politically linked to any party I am free to bash each and every coz for me none is a leader until they can live the life of a normal man and learn to be humble!

If you do not have the ability to lead the thread that you started---then it is better to follow----listen and learn.

By bashing you dont gain followers....

As for my ability or not...I started it...I took the initiative something I wouldnt have even brought up had you not started off with such an attitude! The very fact that it never occurred to you or you thought it as less interesting speaks volumes

Secondly, I have no interst in LEADING a thread! I my ONLY interest is showcasing what is leadership and what we have called or thought it to be....

For me I believe everyone has the potential to give their inputs but no one needs to bash anyone else - one who does that should in fact be questionable as to what is his/her problem!

As for listening and learning...No one gives you an ear when you ask like that...However, the speach MY FELLOW countrymen lend me your ear did lead to many listening!

People in the U S also do not know the law, but they do know that they will get justice and there is rule of law in state of the union---anytime day or anytime night---.

Do they? We are seeing a biased case towards the blacks - I wish not to make sweeping statements coz I know many a time it may be true...But even great Murrica isnt ALWAYS playing the right cards!

Looking from your posts so far---you are equally confused about the problems about your motherland---.

There is confusion and there is giving attention to the ignored problems!

The reasons for conversion at that time and the reason for a good law abiding state have not changed since then----.

I dont know what your measuring standard is but no matter how you see a wrong, it wont appear as a right to anyone who is good...

1. order in the society by enforcing the rule of law

2. justice for one justice for all

3. freedom of speech

4. equality for all

Justice isnt EVERYTHING...Sure it plays a major role...I once had a thread asking people's poll what they would like changed first in the different systems of Pakistan - 100% didnt think it was justice....

ABSOLUTE justice is a myth...because with power comes responsibilities something MANY cant handle well and lead to corruption! Hence a mixture of traits together is the only way...

The rule of law is applicable everywhere true....But it is USUALLY the last resort even in Islam, ask them nicely first...So far everyone has been running after their interest no one has the time nor the ability to be nice except when begging for votes!

Now---at this stage no leader is going to come and do all this stuff-----what you would need to do to arrest the nation back from the thugs----you would need " a cleanup crew---a janitorial service " that can go in and take out the corrupt politicians and your so called waderas one at a time and sometimes two----.

Even they need a leader to lead them....They cant go around based on assumptions without a plan and an executive with foresight!

You have to understand that the pinnacle of corruption that they have attained---these corrupt politicians will not give up easy---.

I have emphasized it in every of my post!

And the sink hole that the masses have gotten themselves into---they ain't coming out of it just like that---education or no education---it is in the mind set----Pakistanis are an extremely thick headed people---simple education won't help them.

No one is asking to teach them ABC...that is literacy to teach them how to write their names and do grade 3 mathematics...Education involves using the brain...Critical thinking involves analyzing skill...I usually talk about the latter 2

That is where Musharraf proved to be a COWARD----. My brother told him what too do----after he got kicked out---he says Mian Saab aap sahi keh rahey thay---well it was too ate by then.

During his time the ONLY few things I hated was him freeing media and making them become soo incompetent and unprofessional to the level they can be called junk media!

And the inability to take the public into confidence by not being transparent enough to them...Sure dont show us your battle plans at least tell us what you will do- Warnings are always necessary however, not like the repeated rants of the civilian govt!

Another thing he failed to do was establish himself and not force people like all the previous govt....


He did good things HEC....development in some parts of Karachi....and other development....but he was a human and not perfect the very fact he didnt get a large following base is prove enough he wasnt leading many!

Hi,

That is an honorable trait---that shows character.

If you have read my posts you will notice MOST if not ALL the traits are those by the prophet! And he was there to lead people who would even bury their own child just coz she was not carrying XY chromosome for which they were responsible (Y coming from dads) but would blame their wives.

A community that would fight among themselves and some elite families who were taking tax for people to make pilgrimage to Mekkah ....

He was sent to a community who thought slaves were property, who were racist and not to mention were willing to buy and defame even one who had character before his prophethood....

Now if such criteria can work on such backward / jahil people....why not on Pakistanis?

Honesty

Charisma

Commitment

Communication

Initiative

Maintaining a Good Attitude

Competence

Focus

Generosity

Passion

Problem Solving

Self-Discipline

Even to the fact that you need to once in awhile give others the credit and not horde it....None of the articles I posted are by me...So judging my experience based on them is kind of a personal remark!

 

[Hyde]

If you ask me the basic definition of Leader/Head of state, I would say the basic responsibility of leader is to ensure

• The life of each and every citizen is secure
• The justice is being served and the law is strictly being enforced
• Everyone is accountable and equal before the law
• Equal Rights for all
• Eliminating poverty
• Special focus on Education & Health

The criteria for choosing leader must also be very difficult. An ideal leader must have at least

• Good education & communication skills
• Common sense
• Humbleness, honesty and dedication
• 20 years experience in politics, having served as Minister, Diplomat or Ambassador with track record of performance on his duty
• Strong vision to take the country forward with shadow ideas given before the elections ever held in clear and easy to understandable details of what he aims to do

The leaders we have in Pakistan are not ideal for this role. Our leaders are

• Imran Khan - plays cricket well, did some philanthropy work in past, no experience of politics besides appearing on talk shows
• Nawaz Sharif - Industrialist, has reputation in doing business, has some experience of politics but lacks the required qualification for becoming head of state... famed as corrupt
• Zardari - Landlord - Has some political experience but no qualification, famed as corrupt
• ANP - Ethnic based politics, won't let the strategic projects be completed, followers must vote for them
• Smaller parties are usually representing segments of society and lacks the vision of united Pakistan, brighter Pakistan

 

[airmarshal]

I will not troll your thread @Akheilos

But the attributes you have listed in a long post are mostly influenced from business leaders.

The most important attribute of a leader is integrity. I m talking about people leader.

A leader should be able to put up an idea and convince the people his idea is right. This is only done through force of argument and conviction in character.

If you follow the path of our Propher Mohammed PBUH and how Allah guided him and before that trained him to be a leader, you will know what I mean.

As for our political leaders, they all belong to prison instead of parliament. Thieves, robbers and killers are not leaders, they are criminals. Our nation unfortunately is led by criminals. So there is no parallel between what we have what we call 'leaders' and what true leadership is.

 

[MastanKhan]

And when they die---it creates chaos and anarchy-----so in the end---it all comes don to is order---justice---rule of law----and everything else is a sub factor---

 

[Leader]

not possible. I do hug or shake hands without hesitation, but the labor class is just looking for an advantage, to manage them you have to keep them under your thumb in a sense that they dont see what you are trying, rather try to rip you off.

Sir,

Not him---but it was you---your family---mother brother sisters uncles father---every one that is responsible in the killing of 70000 Pakistanis.

You are the stupidest and the dumbest nation on the face of this earth---only clever for your own sake but then not.

When it takes a nation 12 years to recognize their enemy----when you have the mentality that there is nothing wrong till someone near and dear to you dies before you take any action----there is nothing but a dark hole of despair and depravity for the likes of you and the nation that you are living in.

When even after 14 years you do not have the ability to clear your mind of the blunders that you as a nation committed by not taking a stand against the terrorists sooner---you as a person and you as a nation deserve what you got.

I was expecting a reasonable reply, that you may have had thought for dictator mushy, but all you came up with is a rant.

 

[Dubious]

not possible. I do hug or shake hands without hesitation, but the labor class is just looking for an advantage, to manage them you have to keep them under your thumb in a sense that they dont see what you are trying, rather try to rip you off.

Not too long ago people used to think of women in that way

I dont judge everyone based on 1-5 samples...This disgusting attitude needs to die in Pakistan otherwise we will keep suspecting and never move on!

I will not troll your thread @Akheilos

Thank you

But the attributes you have listed in a long post are mostly influenced from business leaders.

Yes because the posts came out of (1) Forbes - basically appeals to the business minded
(2) a school of animal husbandry - 1 of their courses

Just to show they can be used in any field coz they basically appeal to A leader be he in Business or in running a country

The most important attribute of a leader is integrity. I m talking about people leader.

The problem with us is we like life simple....A leader is not a simple man...He has to lead others, teach others, manage others...So how can 1 attribute be enough? He may not be 100% in all attributes but having even 70% of the 20 attributes on this thread might be enough ...

A man with integrity and without a vision or courage is also not going to go far..Honestly speaking integrity is the thing that distinguishes you from treating OTHERS as animals - Integrity is the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.

If you have a look at the 3rd post....It mentions 20 qualities...each rotates around humble, humility, integrity BUT also puts in foresight, plan, courage and communication....A shy man with integrity is also not gonna go far if he cant communicate his plan nor can one who doesnt have the positive attitude to push the plan to action....

If you follow the path of our Propher Mohammed PBUH and how Allah guided him and before that trained him to be a leader, you will know what I mean.

Allah GUIDED the prophet to exist as an example for us to follow not to raise above human and keep him there while we behave less than human...

Prophet behaved as a human first before a prophet...He married, had children, worked and kept his character clean...

He had normal human feelings when he was hurt that his uncle wasnt converting, he was upset that his own tribe had rejected him, he was upset when Aisha was accused but the thing HE had was belief ALLAH will set it right and hence he stayed patient before launching at people...Imagine someone says something to your wife, will you maintain the same patient as the prophet and wait for things to unravel or will you jump at the guy who says it? He got revelations we have Quran and the Sunnah....

As for prophet Adam making mistake and repenting- it was to teach his children how to repent same with Prophet Yunus....the thing is we people do not take heed....
Prophet Musa was impatient - human character
Prophet Ayub was patient even when seriously ill, lost everything - an example to follow
Prophet Noh lost his son who was arrogant
Prophet Yaqub's own sons hated Prophet Yusuf - Child jealousy

Everyone was given a problem and they behaved as they did as a solution for us to follow...I dont think the Quran is just telling stories but teaching us, if we dont listen or place these people as demi god what was the use of the stories to be preserved for generation?

We raise the prophet above human status hence fail to follow them coz THEY WERE PROPHETS and we are not able to do reach that status so why bother trying- this attitude is what kills everything!

As for our political leaders, they all belong to prison instead of parliament. Thieves, robbers and killers are not leaders, they are criminals. Our nation unfortunately is led by criminals. So there is no parallel between what we have what we call 'leaders' and what true leadership is.

My thread was opened coz I am frustrated of the blind loyalty people give politicians in calling them leaders....

These politicians dont contain any backbone and hence the thread was to show what leadership requires in contrast to what we have called leaders!

• The life of each and every citizen is secure

• The justice is being served and the law is strictly being enforced

• Everyone is accountable and equal before the law

• Equal Rights for all

• Eliminating poverty

• Special focus on Education & Health

So basically Security + Justice + Transparency + Rights + Education and health and deleting poverty

How many of our politicians have invested a second of their time for any of this?

The last part they refer to as welfare and claim Pakistan cant afford it (it needs to channel all its wealth into infrastructure) - so far that is all I have heard from Noora on this forum...

Not 1 politician has challenged the system where your security and justice live (Except IK but in a very wrong way though I am not sure what is the right way AND with wrong people)

Transparency - So far we never know anything until it is signed sealed and happening...how many contracts have gone through tender? How many contracts advertised so people can COMPETE and hence getting us the best price?

Rights? What is that?

The criteria for choosing leader must also be very difficult. An ideal leader must have at least

• Good education & communication skills
• Common sense
• Humbleness, honesty and dedication
• 20 years experience in politics, having served as Minister, Diplomat or Ambassador with track record of performance on his duty
• Strong vision to take the country forward with shadow ideas given before the elections ever held in clear and easy to understandable details of what he aims to do

For a PM who doesnt sit in the parliament as often as he is in Saudi...I think communication is a skill he needs to learn in order to know what his role is and do it!

Bold part doesnt exist so I wont even talk about it!

Experience- You mean experience in looting Pakistan? I dont think that is valid at all coz PPP can bring their experience board up and we all know what that shows!

Vision is useless without the rest of the qualities!

he leaders we have in Pakistan are not ideal for this role. Our leaders are

• Imran Khan - plays cricket well, did some philanthropy work in past, no experience of politics besides appearing on talk shows
• Nawaz Sharif - Industrialist, has reputation in doing business, has some experience of politics but lacks the required qualification for becoming head of state... famed as corrupt
• Zardari - Landlord - Has some political experience but no qualification, famed as corrupt
• ANP - Ethnic based politics, won't let the strategic projects be completed, followers must vote for them
• Smaller parties are usually representing segments of society and lacks the vision of united Pakistan, brighter Pakistan

IK- actually has a degree in something others dont! In 1972 he enrolled in Keble College, Oxford where he read Philosophy, Politics and Economics, graduating with honours in 1975.

Only prob with him is lacks common sense maybe...He has surrounded himself with high level shit!

NS- and we all saw where his experiences has taken him - exile! And he lacks communication - spends more time with elite than with locals to know what they want . Lacks transparency,

Zardari- Only thing to his name is jail to President - ONLY HAPPENS IN PAKISTAN!

ANP- not worth my time to type about

 

[Leader]

Not too long ago people used to think of women in that way

I dont judge everyone based on 1-5 samples...This disgusting attitude needs to die in Pakistan otherwise we will keep suspecting and never move on!

you are not comprehending what Im trying to say, whenever they can trick you whether with the money or work, they do it.

say I contracted a guy to paint our house for 1 lac, I was inexperienced, so I gave him 50,000 to start with, he didnt show up for a fucking month.. you want to get work done from labor class, you keep they under your thumb, or else you will be fooled.

as for treating them with respect and all, I do, its just my weakness, as it wont be long when they start asking for favors/money.

baaten karna bohat asan hae beta, kabhe pala pare ga to tab baat karna..

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Defining leader is same as to define Mustafa kamal attaturk. All in one... Whole package !!