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What if Pakistan had given access to warm waters to the USSR

pakdefender

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This is not a thread on real history , more on a 'what if' scenario in history

Russian were planning to come down into Afghanistan then into Pakistan so that they could have access to warm waters , or so we are told

Instead of getting into an indirect war , what if Pakistan had given access to the USSR to say Gawader , was this ever an option ? And what could have been the outcome if Pakistan had allowed the USSR navy to have access to warm water port such as Gawader

Post analysis and articles if any related to this topic in here

Also what if TODAY , Pakistan were to reach out to Russia with the same offer , will it go down well with the Chinese ?
 
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in cold war era , India and Russia were buddies .. and we already see what Russian did to us in 71 war .. Pakistan can never risk the presence of Russia in this region .. nor do USA ...
but today geopolitics is changing ... but i think we should give any access to Russians in our land ... as they are not to be trusted .....
 
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Russia was never going to invade Pakistan. Perhaps a few border areas, but that's it. They didn't have the force numbers to quell a nation the size of Pakistan. Afghanistan was the last leg of their adventure and pretty straightforward since Afghanistan was slipping into communist hands anyway.
 
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Russia was never going to invade Pakistan. Perhaps a few border areas, but that's it. They didn't have the force numbers to quell a nation the size of Pakistan. Afghanistan was the last leg of their adventure and pretty straightforward since Afghanistan was slipping into communist hands anyway.

Balochistan was always on their agenda, most of the insurgency in balochistan is carried out by communist minded balochs in balochistan , a product from cold war era that was especially groomed by russian spies in the region. Balochistan was definitely on the agenda of USSR to acces arabian sea, rest of pakistan was of no use to them.
 
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Soviet Union was allied with Iran and India.

If access had been granted they all would have come together to rip Pakistan apart.
 
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Balochistan was always on their agenda, most of the insurgency in balochistan is carried out by communist minded balochs in balochistan , a product from cold war era that was especially groomed by russian spies in the region. Balochistan was definitely on the agenda of USSR to acces arabian sea, rest of pakistan was of no use to them.

Communism has nothing to do with Russia. It's an ideology, not restricted by borders. These fake Baloch think as if they are the Marxists and Che Guevaras..........it will be good to drop simple JDAMs on them.
 
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Some theories are so easy to refute. This USSR needing access to warm waters one is such a lame theory. One just has to take a look at the map. USSR already had access to warm waters of Black Sea. Why would it need to come all the way down to arabian sea? the only inconvenience with black sea is that the ships have to pass through the strait of Bosphorus and that needs an understanding with Turkey. But then USSR had the option of the port of Vladivostok. its open all year as well.
 
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Hi,

Gwadar has been offered to the russians and the chinese---and for that reason you see all these problems in pakistan created by our dear u s of a Mushharaf's exit was arranged for hat reasn because he was getting cozy wit the russians.

Gwadar port and the naval base is going to play a very important role in the next 10 years.
 
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jitne ****** wali Amreeka say karwaye hey Russia ko he anay detay tu aaj ye haal na hota
 
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Some theories are so easy to refute. This USSR needing access to warm waters one is such a lame theory. One just has to take a look at the map. USSR already had access to warm waters of Black Sea. Why would it need to come all the way down to arabian sea? the only inconvenience with black sea is that the ships have to pass through the strait of Bosphorus and that needs an understanding with Turkey. But then USSR had the option of the port of Vladivostok. its open all year as well.

One for the west, one for the east. The potential for a warm water port in the region cannot simply be discarded. A better line of argument to pick up is of Russian attempting to occupy a place like Pakistan - which shares absolutely no cultural, racial or ideological similarity with the Russians, and whose people still had deep scars from the last imperial occupation.
 
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If Pakistan had given warm water to the USSR, they would have heated their homes in winter with it! Period!

Heat their homes at the expense of Pakistan
Hope you guys get the point
 
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Some theories are so easy to refute. This USSR needing access to warm waters one is such a lame theory. One just has to take a look at the map. USSR already had access to warm waters of Black Sea. Why would it need to come all the way down to arabian sea? the only inconvenience with black sea is that the ships have to pass through the strait of Bosphorus and that needs an understanding with Turkey. But then USSR had the option of the port of Vladivostok. its open all year as well.
If that is Correct.....then i think we are living in Dream land
I have one Question:??
a) Gwadar dream can fulfill russian ambitions....I see Huge Distance b/t Gwadar & russia
b) In Cold Era, Russia have all the Industries installed in Central Asian, maybe at time they want to use our Ports, but not today
c) Russia have no Oil/Gas problem they are fulfilling their needs unlike China who depends on supply route security
 
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CIA admit that they fabricated and spread rumour that Russia wants to reach warm water. Zia ul haq also used this propaganda to justify pakistan's intervention in Afghanistan.
Russia was in Afghanistan to protect her interests and prevent collapse of afghan communist regime. Soviet knew that all the training camps of mujahideen are in pakistan near border but made no attempt to bomb any of them (pakistan must thank God for it).
Soviet union had the full capability to bomb the hell out of pakistan, they didnt. Instead they were playing more dangerous game, they opened doors for pakhtuns of pakistan to study free in russia. Russia had plan to teach lesson to pakistan through azad pakhtunistan and azad balochistan. This was also the agenda of afghan communist regime, this alarmed pakistan, not warm waters rumour.

So they spared Pak out of good will? Lol at pak should thank god for that.
 
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Pakistan would have never cozied up with uncle sam..

Communism would have made a stronghold in Pakistan with time. with chinese support too.

alliances would have been different, pak would have been flowing su30mkm, india would have been flying f15 strike eagle. at the most.

kashmir would have changed geography if we had us weapons as an ally.
 
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Soviet Union was allied with Iran and India.

A minor correction but it's necessary to state that the USSR wasn't an ally of Iran instead the soviets supported Iraqi Baathists under Saddam Hussein alongside the US during the Iraq-Iran war.

The Soviet Union alongside the British and other Allied forces had even invaded and occupied Iran during WWII to steal its oil and gas for their war effort.

This USSR needing access to warm waters one is such a lame theory. One just has to take a look at the map. USSR already had access to warm waters of Black Sea.

the only inconvenience with black sea is that the ships have to pass through the strait of Bosphorus and that needs an understanding with Turkey.

Bro, you yourself already recognize the Black Sea was literally worthless to the USSR without access to the Mediterranean which required control of the Bosphorus and Dardenelles straits that were and still are under Turkish control. However, the USSR wasn't looking for "cooperation" or "understanding" and that's exactly what lead to the Turkish Strait crisis to begin with.
Turkish Straits crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The USSR was literally following the instructions left by Tsar Peter I in his will ordering Russia:

"To approach as near as possible to Constantinople and India whoever governs there will be the true sovereign of the world. Consequently, excite continual wars, not only in Turkey, but in Persia And, in the decadence of Persia, Penetrate as far as the Persian Gulf advance as far as India." (Clause IX)
But then USSR had the option of the port of Vladivostok. its open all year as well.

Not true.

Seawater freezes at about -2 degrees Centigrade and Vladivostok's yearly temperatures show that even on land it falls well below seawater freezing temperatures so the port is frozen over and can be difficult to access for at least 3 to 4 months a year:

vladivostok-average-temperatures-chart.gif


Here is a picture of the port of Vladivostok sometime during winter:

POLEofCOLD-012.jpg


Here is a picture of a man fishing on solid ice on the Bay of Amur which the Port of Vladivostok sits on:

POLEofCOLD-VAR-002.jpg


Furthermore, look at the port of Vladivostok's geographical location and how far away it is from virtually everything particularly the countries capital Moscow and the most densely parts of Russia so transport of goods to and from it required long treks through barren Russia which would have been difficult during winter months and still are (this is one of the main reasons why NATO wants supply routes through Pakistan and even when transiting through Russia they never used Vladivostok).

It was of little strategic/tactical value particularly in case of war with a country like the US which had bases in both S. Korea and Japan and the USSR required immediate access to regions like the Gulf of Aden and Strait of Hormuz in order to cut US access to oil/gas and control world trade. Another problem that existed was China and the USSR's increasingly hostile relationship since at least the 50s. Vladivostok sits in a region claimed by China as its own since it was lost to the British during the opium wars. Thus, in case of a war, Chinese intervention to retake Vladivostok port would have meant that the Soviets needed those warm water ports even more.

c) Russia have no Oil/Gas problem they are fulfilling their needs unlike China who depends on supply route security

It's never been about Russia being able to supply their own needs. Russia, even today, relies heavily on oil and gas revenues to pay for it's yearly budget expenditures and accounts for a large portion of its exports (68% as per the US EIA) and overall GDP which has driven most of its growth over the last decade.
russia-federal-budget.jpg



A contributing factor that that brought down the USSR was OPEC, and Saudi Arabia specifically, flooding the market with oil in the 80s which drastically drove down price:

historical-oil-prices-in-2011-dollars.png


This lead to increased budgetary problems for the USSR and their subsequent bankruptcy and collapse.

Instead of getting into an indirect war , what if Pakistan had given access to the USSR to say Gawader , was this ever an option ?

Our involvement in Afghanistan to repulse the soviet invasion was unavoidable:
  • In 1971 the "Indo-Soviet Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation" was signed and Article IX specifically states that if either nation is attacked the other would come to it's aid to "remove such threat" which was exemplified by a large scale USSR naval intervention in the 1971 war on behalf of India to assist in blockading the bay of Bengal confirmed by former Russian naval commander Vladimir Kruglyakov. This posed a grave threat to Pakistan in case of a future war with India which would have resulted in us being flanked on both sides by large hostile enemy forces. Soviet imperialism had occupied the Caucuses, Central Asia and along with their openly antagonistic attitudes and actions towards Islam and Muslims including their invasion of Afghanistan it was obvious they had their eyes set on Pakistan and were not averse to going to war with us and considering the fact they already did it was imperative to get rid of them.
  • The USSR was a major source of economic and military AID for India as well as overall military hardware purchases including the licensed manufacture of the Mig-21 not to mention a source of trade which bolstered their economy and by 1972 became it's largest trading partner. Eliminating that source of revenue, military hardware/technology and scientific cooperation was advantageous to us and our own security.

  • The "Pushtoonistan" movement was a creation of the USSR (Khrushchev himself openly supported it in his March 4 1960 visit to Kabul) and it's allied government in Kabul in an attempt to divide Pakistani's along fictional differences to eventually to rob us of our culture, place control of our lands in the hands of warlords/soviets, and have us deviate from Islam which lead to the 1960 Afghan invasion of Bajaur on top of which they are responsible for the formation of groups like the BLA by tapping into Ulfat Nazim's Marxist-Leninist "World Baloch Organization" as confirmed by Stephen and Carol McC. Pastner ("Adaptations to state level politics by Southern Baloch" in "Pakistan the Long View" 1977, pg. 136) and by and Lt. General Abdul Qayyum ("Balochistans Commotion: What is the truth?" in Nawa-e-Waqt, May 1, 2009). The USSR was literally following the playbook of Tsar Peter I.
Russia was never going to invade Pakistan. Perhaps a few border areas, but that's it. They didn't have the force numbers to quell a nation the size of Pakistan.

Bro, the USSR was never going to do it alone they always intended and would have invaded alongside India. Remember the USSR never needed to occupy all of Pakistan all they really needed was Balochistan whose population in the 80s would have been less than 4 million people.

Let's look at the facts:

1. The USSR did this before but in neighboring Iran. Alongside the British (who coincidentally used Indian soldiers) and other Allied forces they invaded and occupied Iran during WWII stealing its oil/gas for their war effort.

2. The USSR went to war with Pakistan starting in 1971. The Soviet navy directly intervened by assisting in the blockade of the Bay of Bengal after the signing of the "Indo-Soviet Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation" in 1971 Article IX of which specifically states that:

"... In the event of either being subjected to an attack or a threat thereof, the High Contracting Parties shall immediately enter into mutual consultations in order to remove such threat and to take appropriate effective measures to ensure peace and the security of their countries."

This agreement confirmed they were gearing up for a future two front war with Pakistan.

3. The USSR was laying the groundwork for their invasion since the 60s with the creation of the "Pushtoonistan" movement from Kabul and groups like the BLA who had confirmed Marxist-Leninist ties and sought to divide Pakistani's along fictional lines along with all Muslims in general. Their goal was to create Mohammad Ali Foroughi's in Pakistan who'd have been more than happy to sign over territorial control to the soviets like what happened in Iran.​

If anyone thinks the US was ever going to come to our assistance, particularly after they betrayed us in both '65 and '71, consider the cases of Ukraine and Georgia today where they've literally stood by and watched while their "allies" were invaded and torn apart by a foreign aggressor. In the case of Ukraine both Russia and the US had even formally agreed to defend and/or not attack the nation after it abandoned its nuclear program as per the Budapest Memorandum signed in 1994.

The USSR's plans were confirmed when Soviet troops who were earlier sent in to “protect” Amin carried out his assassination as orchestrated by Soviet leadership. This is confirmed by a personal memorandum Andropov (who would become the next Secretary General of the CPSU) wrote to Brezhnev (the Secretary General of the CPSU at the time) in December 1979 where he outlines the plot to overthrow Hafizullah Amin who he stated had become a danger to Soviet influence in Afghanistan citing that things were getting worse for them since the death of Nur Muhammed Taraki and they'd been in contact with anti-Amin Afghan Communists who were going to setup a “new party” and “state organs” (i.e. a puppet government) but required direct Soviet military involvement which Andropov approved of stating that the USSR had:

...two battalions stationed in Kabul and there is the capability of rendering such assistance. It appears that this is entirely sufficient for a successful operation. But, as a precautionary measure in the event of unforeseen complications, it would be wise to have a military group close to the border.”
Wilson Center Digital Archive

Gen. Zia Ul Haq and all those who fought against the Soviet Union are heroes who saved Pakistan and Muslims both within our country and Afghanistan.
 
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