What If Israel Had Never Been Created?

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Kashif,

Thank you for your comments. I am aware of exactly what was the aim of Averose. I could have used equally interesting epithets that are currently used by Bush and the US to describe the fanatics in Islam like the AQ. However, that would be totally uncalled for and hence I controlled myself.

Zeeshan also wanted to prove Bush is right when he produced that terrorist propaganda video under the Islamic thread which Asim quickly and correctly snuffed out. It gave a totally different picture of what the PFF stands for.

Averose and Zeeshan are birds of the same feather. And they do not represent the Islam, Musharraf and Pakistan wants to project. Their Islam is that of Osama bin Laden and the Wahhabi.

No, this "What if" type of threads or "A vs B" have no answers since it only leads to speculations and wild thoughts. I have seen enough of threads stating that the Merkava was the best tank in the world etc etc. There can be no best tank in the world. It all depends on the employment , skills of the crew and scenario. Incorrectly employed it comes a cropper!

Likewise, "If India attacks the US" or "who will win the Third World War?" type of threads. Childish unless analysed and not left as oracle-like statement; something in way Punjabis want to win arguments by merely stating "Main dasiya" (because I say so!)

There is nothing to get passionate about. Do something concrete if one is so passionate! Why merely talk. Does the article give any answer to this passionate issue. It is merely giving statement and no plausible justification. The article should have justified those statement that were trotted out in a bland manner. Then there would be some body to the issue.

Therefore, my comment that it was only to spin money and nothing more since that would appeal to some people who are passionate, but blind to analytically analysing the issue.

Take Musharraf. He is pragmatic. He, I am sure, is as passionate about Palestine as any other Moslem. Yet, he does not gleefully go bonkers and instead is trying to build bridges and then influence the issue, rather than the other way around!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Parihaka has aptly debunked the article.

Asim,

Disbeliever, is it?

And what is your view on this article:

"US paper defends use of term ‘Islamofascism’"
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\09\04\story_4-9-2006_pg7_26

Do you think that that is justified?

Do you think one should defend it to say, he it does not mean all, but only a few and that too not in the terms you are thinking etc etc!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I think Kashif and Mr Qureshi are balanced and pragmatic.

If more people see life and reality, then the problems can be solved to a great degree, if not totally.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

It is also interesting that the Wahhabis call all other Moslems kaffirs.

So, I reckon, Averose, unless is a Wahabi, is also a kaffir.

The Wahhabis also feel other Moslems are munafiqs. Would it be right to believe that Averose is a munfiq?

According to Sahīh Bukhārī, the Prophet said, "Whoever has the following four (characteristics) will be a pure hypocrite and whoever has one of the following four characteristics will have one characteristic of hypocrisy unless and until he gives it up.

1. Whenever he is entrusted, he betrays.

2. Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie.

3. Whenever he makes a covenant, he proves treacherous.

4. Whenever he quarrels, he behaves in a very imprudent, evil and insulting manner."

 

[Averroes]

11. The three million-plus Palestinians, who were forcefully dispersed from their homeland, since 1948, by the Israeli Occupation Forces, (IOF), would, instead, be living happily there today, in a free and independent state of Palestine. There would be no Apartheid Wall, or as a corollary, a Hamas organization. [6]

Given the 20th century pogroms against Jewish arabs in Iraq, Iran, Suadi Arabia et all, I find it very difficult to believe that they’d all “be living happily”. Correction, the jews wouldn’t be living at all in that area of the world.

Alright, so the zionist mentality here is, the inhuman treatment of Palestinians is alright considering other nations supposed treatment towards jews? Ethnic cleansing and apartheid is justified? Doesn't hold ground, and is extremely racist.

8. There would also not have been any Neocon ideologues; like Paul Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Richard Perle, et al, to help, (along with other “Special Interests&#8221, to push the U.S. into an illegal war with Iraq. [4]
Idealogues and fanatics exist irrespective of politics. They simply look for any cause, real or imagined, to latch onto

Really? We're in that denial stage? Neo-cons control the white house, read US foreign policy and Israel , you can download the research paper from Harvard's server: at http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011

9. Iran would not be the next target for U.S. aggression. (No Israel. No “A Clean Break” document. No Israeli Lobby. No Neocons. No need for the U.S. to attack Iran.) [5]
The enmity between the USA and Iran is because of the meddlings in Irans statehood by the USA, with no link to Israel.

Once again, there is a profound link. US - Israel's joint potential threat to Iran, the constant war preparation against Iran; this completely evaded your mind? facts are indeed useless drivel. Also the fact that inaccurate and empty one liners like this are considered refutations by our pompous member salim, well kudos to his intelligence and low level of understanding into actual events and politics.

 

[Neo]

Once again, the useless comment by our kafir member, which is characterized by as he explains: a whole lot of waste of time.

Averroes,

Whatever the meaning of the word Kafir maybe, it has a negative undertone and there for its considered to be 'insulting' to members who understand Urdu!

Please avoid personal attacks!

Thanks!

Neo

 

[parihaka]

Alright, so the zionist mentality here is, the inhuman treatment of Palestinians is alright considering other nations supposed treatment towards jews? Ethnic cleansing and apartheid is justified? Doesn't hold ground, and is extremely racist.

No, the authors assertion that everything would be sweetness and light is incorrect, there would simply be a different balance of power than there now is

Really? We're in that denial stage? Neo-cons control the white house, read US foreign policy and Israel , you can download the research paper from Harvard's server: at http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011

I'm well aware of the views and attitudes of such luminaries as Wolfowitz, my country has had a great deal more to do with him than you have. My point is that these idealogues exist irrespective of any given issue, they look for an issue to advance themselves. The Author however, claims they wouldn't exist if Israel didn't exist.

Once again, there is a profound link. US - Israel's joint potential threat to Iran, the constant war preparation against Iran; this completely evaded your mind? facts are indeed useless drivel. Also the fact that inaccurate and empty one liners like this are considered refutations by our pompous member salim, well kudos to his intelligence and low level of understanding into actual events and politics.

No indeed it hasn't 'evaded my mind', but perhaps you should read up on how the current theocracy came to exist, and America, Britain and Frances endeavors to replace the elected Govt. of Iran with the rule of the Shah. This is where the emnity began, not because of Americas support of Israel.

 

[parihaka]

facts are indeed useless drivel. Also the fact that inaccurate and empty one liners like this are considered refutations by our pompous member salim, well kudos to his intelligence and low level of understanding into actual events and politics.

You need to develop some respect young man.

 

[Sgt.Harris]

Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic word meaning an unbeliever, a person who hides, denies, or covers the truth.

Slight confusion on your part, Kaffir means one who worships idols or has no God, someone who hides would be Munafiq, and to deny would be Kuffr...Easy mistake for those that have learned these terms from sermons given by Pat robertson or some other Evangelical psuedo academic...

It is usually translated into English as "infidel" or "unbeliever".

English is a limited language Arabic has more letters along with each word having several meanings based on prounciation, translating Arabic in to English is like fitting a Cadillac engine into a Fiat. What English translators have done in the past, is find "best word for", infidel is a Biblical era word, today a Kaffir may just be better translated to Atheist, since English now has a word for unbeliever...

 

[KashifAsrar]

Easy mistake for those that have learned these terms from sermons given by Pat robertson or some other Evangelical psuedo academic...

Very naughty indeed !!
Salim would not listen to it. He used to stuck to his concepts. Although ALONE many a times !!
Kashif

 

[rubyjackass]

The creation of Israel is the single most influential event that changed the perspective of Muslims all over the world and helped the rise of radical Islam. This was indeed religious aggression. Come to think of it, they would have removed people of any religion living there.

Surely the idea of a separate Jewish state was a reasonable idea by the west considering the massacres they were victims of. Fine... but why in Palestine? when centuries have passed by since the crusades have failed and Arabs have settled there. If the European countries were feeling guilty of harassing Jews then so be it. They should have built some new cities like Las Vegas and dedicated them to Jews.

From people point of view:
The ease with which the ethnic cleansing took place in Palestine was a result of the failed political structure(Most of the leaders and elite fled by the time of conflict). On the other hand the Jews, desperate to get out of the horrifying Western scene responded immediately to the idea of homeland. Also the many Jew intellectuals all over the world( incidentally these are the people who suffered most in the racial discrimination in the West) quickly came forward to the cause. And then there were extremely aggressive stategic manouvres by their leaders on a diplomatic front. The war was brilliantly managed by the Israeli forces taking advantage of the weaknesses and unpreparedness of Arabs. These years saw displacement of
hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to neighbouring countries.

Israel with foreign support mostly influenced by Jewish intellectuals living all over the world consolidated their position and since then advanced rapidly in all fields. Their technological advance and the rate at which it was achieved is the cause of envy for most countries.

Drastic effects:
The incident called rightly as catastrophe(Zionists call it Israeli independence) has proved to people worldwide that justice does not always prevail. The powerful get what they want. Blunders like the Munich incident by Palestinian ideologues are said to have marred the Palestinian struggle. Though the western world conveniently forgot about the mass exodus during the middle of the century for which they are responsible to an extent.


What I want to say is that the world would have been a much much better place now if Israel were not created(in the present territory).

I tried to be as logical as possible. If you see any inaccuracies above please reply with a quote.



"The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. ... Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?"

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs... Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home."

--Gandhi Mahatma Gandhi on Zionism and Palestine

 

[TruthSeeker]

It seems true to me that the world would be more peaceful today had not Israel been created. Certainly we would be much better off here in the USA. However, it also would have been better if the Arab Palestinians had accepted Jewish immigration following WW1 and not mounted pogroms. It is possible that a single state, Palestine, could have emerged with a sizeable Jewish population living together with the Arab Muslim and Christian populations in a multi-religious state. I have often thought that the US would have been better off allowing unlimited Jewish immigration into New Jersey, making that a quasi-Jewish homeland.

But, musing about how the world coulda or shoulda been doesn't solve anything today. After 60 years, I think, the Palestinian Arabs should accept Israel, get peaceful, procreate, and reassert their rights as their political power grows with the Arab Muslim and Christian population growth within Israel and the West Bank.

 

[rubyjackass]

It seems true to me that the world would be more peaceful today had not Israel been created. Certainly we would be much better off here in the USA. However, it also would have been better if the Arab Palestinians had accepted Jewish immigration following WW1 and not mounted pogroms. It is possible that a single state, Palestine, could have emerged with a sizeable Jewish population living together with the Arab Muslim and Christian populations in a multi-religious state. I have often thought that the US would have been better off allowing unlimited Jewish immigration into New Jersey, making that a quasi-Jewish homeland.

But, musing about how the world coulda or shoulda been doesn't solve anything today. After 60 years, I think, the Palestinian Arabs should accept Israel, get peaceful, procreate, and reassert their rights as their political power grows with the Arab Muslim and Christian population growth within Israel and the West Bank.

The pogroms on Jews were more intense in the western countries than in any other country including Palestine. Any country has a right to accept immigrants or not into its territories depending on the threat it percieves from them. Surely the pogroms are condemnable. But why should foreigners be allowed in their country?
And musing over history does help mankind. Otherwise it would not have been written.

And about acceptance, history says 60 years is not much for acceptance given that the manipulation was done in modern world where the onus was to be around human rights. The world will take much longer than that. Consider crusades... why were the Popes obsessed with control over the Holy Land for centuries? And rememember that many people who saw the Palestinian catastrophe are still alive. Do you suppose them to forget all death and migration? It will continue for generations to come. The incident will continue to be greatly useful for Islamic extremists all over the world to show subjugation of Islam and lure support.

 

[Vinod2070]

The "Al Naqba" (the great catastrophe)!

It will not be forgotten in a hurry. There is little chance of a peace. There may be outward peace for some time if the Palestinians are given their country and pre-1967 borders, it is unlikely to last.

 

[TruthSeeker]

And musing over history does help mankind. Otherwise it would not have been written.

Within limits. As far as Palestine goes, how far back in history should we muse? Musing about distant history is why the Jews feel entitled to live in Palestine or to immigrate there. And musing about history is why the Christians felt entitled to reclaim Jerusalem from the Saracens in the Middle Ages. It seems that you only want to "muse" about the history that suits your cause. I'm saying, today, with all that has happened, the Palestinians should "get over it" and overcome the Israelis by peaceful protest and demographic (higher birth rate) means. Everybody in the world would be better off if they took this approach. The fact of Israel cannot be erased without EVEN MORE suffering for the Palestinians. If I was King of the USA, I would declare New Jersey to be "New Israel" and spend our $ Billions on voluntary re-settling of Jews to New Jersey. But that's not gonna happen!