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What does Pakistan need most from China?

Are you that ignorant happycanuck?
Seriously get some knowledge first about Asia, before commenting on Asia, because you look pretty stupid.

according to the partition rules of "Taqsim-e-Bharat", majority muslim areas were supposed to go to Pakistan.
I think a. hussain is talking about lakshadweep islands near southern India.
Lakshasweep islands has a muslim majority.

Also you should take care of French minority in Quebec. Everyone knows their resentment of the "anglais":rolleyes:
If you have nothing nice to say, stay out!

Let me start with a suggestion, when you want to have a healthy discussion over any issue there is no need to use ABUSIVE WORDS. Remember one common denominator in life respect and accept others for who they are.

Regarding my knowledge of Asia what ever I lack it will be updated. Since you have mentioned the rules of partition I would like to get hold of the same the English version if you know the source let me know.

Now your suggestion about Quebec, we gave them the oppertunity to vote and it was rejected by them by a very small majority. I think it was 49% for separation and 51 % against. You can google for more information. The latest was the rejection by people in Quebec in the federal election. The separatist party was almost wiped out of the election out of 54 MP's in the previous parliament they were left with only 4 MP's in the new parliament this was the result of their leader using the word "we will hold another voting to determine the future of Quebec." People in our country want economic development and do not want to deal with this issue every ten years or so. I thought it would have been better if you had done some research about the referendum in Quebec before commenting about it.

How about Pakistan? Why did you loose East Pakistan? I think you will look at the facts only and get emotional about it. Just ask any Kashmiri under illegal Pakistani occupation what they want most. I do keep my self upto date on the subjects on which I form or express my opinion.
I will keep speaking my mind. The INTERNET is the only medium where any body can exercise the Freedom to Express their opinion, if you do not like my point of view do not ask me to stay out of it. That will only encourage me to do it more often.

With best wishes and good health. Wishing you peace in your heart and mind.
 
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If one reads through the responses to the threads, one finds that most Pakistanis have highlighted economic co-operation as the number one thing they want from China -- but for this to become reality, the Pakistan government must do a lot more to educate and enable Pakistani business persons to take advantage of the trade possibilities with China. Even now, there is a US-European centric ethic to Pakistani business persons, language is perceived as being a barrier - Even though there is a security problem in Pakistan, consideration should be given bringing greater numbers of Chinese diplomatic staff, particularly from ministries associated with trade, investment and finance, in all Pakistani cities, even mid-size cities, because for this effort to be meaningful, it must be broad.
 
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June 30, 2011


China and Pakistan: an alliance is built.


By James Lamont and Farhan Bokhari


Relations on an even keel: PNS Aslat, the fourth Zulfiqar class frigate for the Pakistan Navy to be built jointly with China, at its launch in Karachi last month. The countries are also collaborating on fighter jets.

It was a piece of intelligence worthy of what the Russians call the “tournament of shadows”, when the great powers of the era – London and St Petersburg – vied over central Asia more than a century ago. Then, maps and mavericks determined who held sway over a North-West Frontier that today has mutated into a battleground between ebbing US and surging Chinese influence. And the claim came from the top of the Indian military establishment.

Speaking in April, Lieutenant General K.T. Patnaik, the head of India’s northern command, maintained that Chinese soldiers were stationed on the highly volatile line of control that divides the disputed territory of Kashmir between India and Pakistan, the nuclear-armed rivals.

“Many people today are concerned about the fact that if there were to be hostilities between us and Pakistan what would be the complicity of the Chinese?” Lt Gen Patnaik told his audience in Jammu and Kashmir, on the Indian side of the line. “Not only because they are in the neighbourhood but [because] they are actually stationed and present on the LoC.”

Pakistan quickly denied the presence of Chinese troops, as it had done earlier claims that the People’s Liberation Army was milling about further north in Gilgit when Pakistan was beset last year by floods. But the general’s fears reflect a widespread unease in the world’s largest democracy about what is seen as a stealthy Chinese annexation of neighbouring Pakistan, which is now front and centre of an intensifying strategic rivalry across the Himalayas.

Supposed sightings of Chinese military personnel serve as evidence of India’s encirclement by the PLA on land borders and out at sea in the Indian Ocean. They also signal a realignment where the US may retreat from Pakistan and seek more common cause with India.

One former senior Indian commander claims that Pakistan’s feared intelligence agency, the Inter-Service Intelligence, has closer ties with its Chinese counterparts than it does the US’s Central Intelligence Agency. New Delhi’s politicians and military command frequently voice their concerns about China’s assistance to Pakistan. They point to dams on sensitive river systems, a port built by China Harbour Engineering Company at Gwadar on the Arabian Sea, the sale of military hardware, including jet fighters, frigates and helicopters, and civilian nuclear assistance.

The US, by its own admission, does not have so much to show for its $20bn worth of help over the past 10 years and is increasingly stepping back into the bunker.

Project projections

Sino-Pakistani deals involve high sums:

Fighter aircraft At $20m per JF-17, the project size could be worth as much as $5bn for up to 250 jets

Gwadar port Initial Chinese investment was up to $400m

Nuclear power Chashma 1 and 2 plants were each worth $900m

Hydroelectric dams China’s Three Gorges Project Corporation has proposed a $15bn scheme to dam the Indus river, according to Pakistan’s natural resources ministry

Karakoram highway China upgrading land route to Pakistan for $500m


The interference of the Chinese in what Delhi calls Kashmir and considers Indian territory conjures in the minds of India’s security establishment bitter memories of a brief Chinese invasion of its Arunachal Pradesh state in 1962.

Some political analysts go so far as to refer to Pakistan as a “client state” of China and predict that the US will be displaced as the country’s long-term ally. They consider Pakistan as a test-bed for Chinese exports of sophisticated arms such as submarines as well as nuclear reactors and, in time, finance. “The pattern of trade and investment between Pakistan and China suggests that the US has little chance of retaining its status as Pakistan’s major ally,” says James Brazier, an analyst at IHS, a US-based political risk consultancy.

Referring to nearby Burma, he adds: “Pakistan’s relationship with China could soon resemble that of Myanmar, another former part of British India which is now closely dependent on China.”


Pakistan has made little secret about its fondness for Beijing. Aware that its stance irks India and the US, its leaders call China an “all-weather friend”, striking a deliberate contrast with others they consider less dependable. Wen Jiabao, China’s premier, has returned the compliment with his own rhetorical flourish. “No matter what changes might take place in the international landscape, China and Pakistan will remain forever good neighbours, good friends, good partners and good brothers,” he said in the days following Osama bin Laden’s killing by American forces on Pakistani soil in May.

Marika Vicziany, a professor at Australia’s Monash university and expert in Sino-Pakistani ties, nonetheless describes China as taking a “cautious” approach. “China is winning over the US as the main ally of Pakistan,” she says. “Pakistan is now faced with a balancing act between a new China which is emerging and the new US with its power in decline.”

Take Pakistan’s officials at their word and China is supplying an entire navy and air force, building a Himalayan equivalent of the vast Three Gorges Dam and stands ready to seal a civil nuclear deal similar to the one struck between Washington and New Delhi three years ago.

Nowhere are the plans, on paper at least, more ambitious than in defence. In May, Pakistan asked China to build a naval anchorage at Gwadar. Earlier, its officials said they had begun negotiations to buy up to six submarines, which would help Pakistan project a naval power it has lacked since its creation 64 years ago at the end of British rule in India.

China has a long history of helping Pakistan gain military hardware, notably of the kind it was denied by the west under sanctions imposed from 1990 in response to Islamabad’s nuclear weapons tests. Collaboration with China on the JF-17 Thunder fighter at Kamra air base near Islamabad followed a memorandum of understanding signed in 1995. Even though US sanctions were lifted about a decade ago, the Pakistan Air Force plans to acquire up to 250 JF-17s over the next 10 years. These purchases, driven by bargain prices, are likely to be simultaneous to the acquisition of old and new F-16s from the US.

China is less effusive privately. Its diplomats in Islamabad prefer to highlight their concerns over Islamist militant outfits in Pakistan’s north-east with links to China’s restive Muslim-dominated western province of Xinjiang. They also raise their eyebrows about lengthy delays in executing infrastructure projects, for instance building a rail link across Pakistan, and a lack of purposefulness. Bilateral trade between Pakistan and China is about $8.7bn a year. Although Beijing says this can rise to $15bn in three years, the figure is dwarfed by faster-growing Sino-Indian trade, which stood last year at $60bn.

Like most of Pakistan’s allies, Chinese officials worry about the fragility of the government in Islamabad and the prospects for long-term stability in a country wracked by religiously charged violence. Some of their own contractors have fallen victim to Pakistan’s internal difficulties. Three engineers were killed in a car bomb while on their way to Gwadar port in 2004. Last year, others came under rocket attack. This May, Chinese technicians narrowly escaped a militant strike on an air base in Karachi.

The unpredictable environment leaves a “friendship centre” as the only high-profile Chinese presence in Islamabad. Hasan Askari Rizvi, a Pakistani scholar on strategic and security affairs, says China’s interest is in the geography that links coastal Gwadar to Himalayan Kashgar on the Chinese border, and the resources and market of 180m people along the way. Also important, he says, is whether Pakistan can surmount its security problems, particularly regarding militant Islam – a threat that China fears in its own western regions. “China thinks in the long term. The question is: how far will China go along with a Pakistan which shows no signs of dealing with its challenges,” he says.


Unlike Indian generals, Pakistan’s western allies are sanguine, some even enthusiastic, about the expanding Chinese footprint in Pakistan. US officials in Islamabad say Beijing does not “do” assistance in the same way as Washington and that Pakistan is made to pay for the help that it receives from China. Generous credit helps, however, and the visibility of Chinese projects – including dams and power stations – has won public opinion over in the way that more diffuse US aid has not.

Washington views China’s approach as businesslike and “transactional”, a criticism often levelled at the US’s own strategy of giving more aid in return for progress in fighting Taliban and al-Qaeda militants on the border with Afghanistan. “It’s not assistance. They are buying the Chinese goods,” says one US official of the welter of Chinese commercial activity.

In return for contracts, China offers protection. It gives diplomatic cover in multilateral forums to Pakistan’s prized nuclear programme and bats away fears about a possible proliferation of nuclear technologies. William Milam, a former US ambassador to Pakistan, says: “I am not worried about China being a counterbalance [to the US]. I don’t think it will ever be a counterbalance. It can be a long-term friend [to Pakistan] but it won’t give the level of assistance we have.”

Stephen Cohen at the Washington-based Brookings Institution says it is too early to judge what he describes as China’s “tremendously” fast-growing involvement in Pakistan. The rest of the world has yet to work out what kind of power China will be and whether it will use its might responsibly in the region, he says, but it is clear China would win from any stand-offs between India and its neighbours. “The country that benefits the most from intra-South Asian hostility is China.”

There are those pessimists, however, who see even rising China as unable to turn the tide of the inevitable. India – which has everything to lose from Pakistan’s worsening security, crippled economy and poor governance – is “being encircled by something that is crumbling”, says one western diplomat in Islamabad. “If [Chinese engagement helps to] delay an implosion ... for a while, then all to the good.”

For Lt Gen Patnaik, “Chinese footprints are too close for comfort”. A worse prospect might be their being too far off.


Islamism and diplomacy – Beijing benefits from America’s emergence as a popular enemy.

Islamism has long been a thorn in relations between China and Pakistan. Following the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989, Pakistan’s Islamists made a determined push to forge closer ties with Muslim separatists in China. They made overtures in the mainly Muslim western province of Xinjiang. Some even believed the creation of an Islamic republic in China was possible. The resulting diplomatic strain haunts policymakers on both sides.

Today, Pakistan’s Islamists no longer flaunt ambitions to radicalise their Chinese co-religionists. Instead, they now see Beijing as a trusted friend. In the wider population, according to recent polls by Washington’s Pew Research Center, as many as three-quarters of those surveyed took a negative view of the US. The majority saw Pakistan’s biggest ally more as a foe than a friend, fearing it could become a military threat.

“China’s friendship to Pakistan is an important guarantee for our stability,” says Liaquat Baloch, a senior leader of Jamaat-e-Islami, a mainstream religious political party. “China relates to other countries without any agenda, where the US has an agenda which is all about interfering in the lives of others,” he says.

Pakistan’s security officials say the armed forces in both countries, which now have strong ties, played a big hand in this turnround. The Pakistani army moved fast to block local Islamist militants from linking up with Uighur Muslim separatists. By contrast, it has nurtured militant groups threatening India and Afghanistan.

“A decision was made early on which drew the line. [There would be] zero tolerance for anyone trying to destabilise China’s interests in Xinjiang,” says one Pakistani security official.

One of Beijing’s main preoccupations in Pakistan is watching Islamist groups that may yet pose a threat – particularly the East Turkestan Islamic Movement. Following riots in Xinjiang three years ago, Islamabad pledged its support for “breaking the back” of this separatist group, which is based in its territory.

“China still likes to keep an eye on those Islamic groups which it considers to be reckless,” says Tanvir Ahmad Khan, a former senior diplomat. “We have had some cases of attacks on Chinese nationals in Pakistan. But the positive development is the mindset among Islamists who now see the US as the main global threat.”


The Financial Times Limited 2011.
 
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some infs about chinese 5 gen fighter from huzigeng(a man very reliable and very famous in cdf)

cac j20 is too expensive.also plaaf cannot buy too much in the future.

cac have another j2x programme (single ws15 engine) for paf by the rumor,it is said by huzigeng that cac have been a lot of design programme about the j2x . These design programme of j2x are just waiting for PAF to select from. maybe it is the next sino- pak jfxx

so IMO,paf will have a small quantity of cac j20s and a great many cac j2xs in the future,In addition, sac jxx(chinese another low-cost 5 gen twin-engine fighter) is good choice for paf too.


btw. Wishing Pakistan is more and more stronger and thriving prosperity in the future
 
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PAKISTAN NEEDS CHINESE MADE COFFINS FOR IT'S SOLDIER & CHINESE
RIVER WATER FOR IT'S PEOPLE
 
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A stable govement,I would say.Pakistan has enough fire power to protect herself,besides China will always come to help in case of war.So Pakistan doesn't need to worry about the military part.But to me,the most urgent thing for Pak is to quit the stupid and bloody anti-terror war,then keep a stable goverment which can unite all the Pakistanis to focuse on the economy.Corrupt or not doesn't matter,the important part is the govement needs to have the 'can do' spirite,and it can acturally build the country.I doubt if the current Pakistani govement has any idea what is it doing and what does it want to get.
 
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PAKISTAN NEEDS CHINESE MADE COFFINS FOR IT'S SOLDIER & CHINESE
RIVER WATER FOR IT'S PEOPLE


Just can see the limitless amount of hatred you are keeping for Pakistan & the Pakistani's. I don't expect it to be changed by waging war of words with you. Only can give my opinion that what ever India is sowing in Pakistan since its Independence, will be repaid with due interest if not now but we hope Pakistan's time will also come as we all live in the same world, so then please don't expect Pakistani's to give you any supporting shoulder because guys as yourself are conveying the message what Indians truly keep inside their hearts.

Thanks
 
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Pakistani brothers, I want to make a survey, each person can only answer an answer, thank you!

1:J-20
2:J-10B
3:J-11B
4: Yuan SSK
5:052C DDG
6:99G MBT
7:return ticket to Chinese space station
8:093 SSN
9,054A FFG
10,Economic cooperation and investment
11,Other


It is nice to read one brother dangling the carrots to his brother. SO my question to you is how much Pakistan will have to pay to China and in what form?

Just your Government tried to Bully N.Korea to allow access to sea in their backyard because of petroleum deposits and N.Kores rightfully refused to give into your bullying tactics.

I can only guess that China will most likely make similar demand of Pakistan to turn over Kashmir under their illegal occupation. I think people will wise up and stop you in your tracks. Your Government always has an hidden agenda to fool other nations. Since you are facing consistent opposition from local population in Baluchistan with regards to your control over the Gawadar port. As well as retaliation by Baloch in your mining projects as well. Your country is also desperate to secure agricultural land so that you can export 100% of produce back to your homeland thus depriving the locals of food, jobs(By employing labour from china as you have done in Guatemala mines). Your only goal is to deprive people of Pakistan of its own natural resouces revenue.

I think you will do the same to them as you have done to Guatemala people and some African countries as well. As your country is engaged in land grab around the world for agricultural produce this is what you will do to Pakistan if they are not careful and scrutunise the details of any agreement. On the surface you try to appear very friendly but there is always ulterior motive behind your offers.

What Pakistan needs is not to put all its eggs inone basket rather look out for economic co-operation with all the countries in the immediate neighbourhood which will eventually bring peace and self reliance in the nation as well boost the confidence of its people without being trapped by selfish motives of other nations.

Why China has not helped the brother in the past by the way of economic development other than military hardware to make it as a testing ground?
 
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It is becoming more and more clear that defence of China and Pakistan is endangered from one country - Hindustan. So as far as defence is concerned, we know for our betterment or that of China, Pakistan will have all it needs to have. Considering this aspect, I would say Economic Cooperation and investment in Pakistan is the first thing that we need the most at present.

Short answer : Economic Cooperation and Support to flourish as a better economy.
 
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PAKISTAN NEEDS CHINESE MADE COFFINS FOR IT'S SOLDIER & CHINESE
RIVER WATER FOR IT'S PEOPLE

Let me suggest to you to take your hatered in to some other place. I myself being of Indian origin can not understand when individuals like you will have a better self image.

It is a huge disappointment that we come across people like you on this forum which if used in positive manner can build bridges between countries rather than spread hate.

One should try to make its point in a much more civilised way rather that spewing out the poision to any individual or the country as a whole.

I hope you will sit back and reflect on what you have done to yourself and rest of the Indians living in different parts of the world.

I do not agree with everybody in the world but never in my life I will take the path you have taken to express your view point.

Try to do something good for the humanity and you will be at peace with yourself.
 
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I myself being of Indian origin can not understand when individuals like you will have a better self image.

That explains why you keep whining about Pakistani Kashmir being under "illegal occupation". :rolleyes:

In fact, it is India that is illegally occupying Kashmir. And claiming Chinese land (Aksai chin) as a part of Kashmir.

Why China has not helped the brother in the past by the way of economic development other than military hardware to make it as a testing ground?

Check the economy section, to see the enormous number of economic deals that China has with Pakistan. Including the recent Sino-Pakistani "nuclear deal".

Or things like this: China proposes $15bn Indus dam scheme in Pakistan - Financial Times

Our Engineers are all over Pakistan doing construction work, a fact which makes India cry about "PLA on the LoC" or "Chinese troops in Giglit Baltistan". India doesn't want to see anything good for their neighbours.
 
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We need help in putting zardari, nawaz sharif etc in front of the courts for treason and hanging them.
 
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That explains why you keep whining about Pakistani Kashmir being under "illegal occupation". :rolleyes:

In fact, it is India that is illegally occupying Kashmir. And claiming Chinese land (Aksai chin) as a part of Kashmir.



Check the economy section, to see the enormous number of economic deals that China has with Pakistan. Including the recent Sino-Pakistani "nuclear deal".

Or things like this: China proposes $15bn Indus dam scheme in Pakistan - Financial Times

Our Engineers are all over Pakistan doing construction work, a fact which makes India cry about "PLA on the LoC" or "Chinese troops in Giglit Baltistan". India doesn't want to see anything good for their neighbours.

Aksai-Chin was handed over to you by Pakistan but if you go and read the history on wikipedia it used to be part of Ladakh and became part of Jammu & Kashmir. I am not whinning but stating the fact.

There is a protocol on this forum to use civilised use of english words.
Regarding occupation of Kashmir by India, I would suggest you to read the facts and than state you case. The wikipedia is at your disposal use it to enrich your knowledge which will make you a peaceful human being.

It is a fact that PLA is present on Illegally occupied part of Kashmir. It is hard for me to predict the long term effects of it that only time will tell.

If you allow me to add one thing regarding the rights of citizens of a nation. Your country does not even respect the rights of its citizen to own property to start with. The people from rural can not enjoy the same rights as the citizens living in the urban areas, so therefore I do not expect your country to respect the sovereignty of other nations.

Who told you that India does not want its neighbours to prosper. I have time and again stressed in most of my posts prosperity through peace. I am supporter of close economic ties between the nations of the region without occupying the territory of other nations. Read them if you can than form your opinion about my intentions. What pakistan lacks is a leadership who has a vision to guide the nation in to golden era of peace with in the nation and than economic prosperity.

May the peace be with you.
 
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