What do you know about War??

[jhungary]

War is an natural subject on a defence forum, the aim of a Defence Force or a Military is to fight a war, many membere here talk about war, many of those go into deep and advocate one and sing praise and bang wardrum all over the place. But what do you actually know about war?? Let me, a veteran of 1 and a half war, show you the rope.

War is a concept, where 2 parties or more, fought to achieve some goal. An Objective if you insist to put a word for it.

People who have an education, whom have a TV set will tell you, War is a glorious thing, to die for your country is proud, and the excitment of war, the thrill you get from killing your enemy is satisifying feeling. And that most of them seems to think War is one of the way (Some say the ONLY way) for power projection.

What is war, really?

War, as i said, is a concept to settle a conflict, an conflict of idea perhaps, but a conflict nonetheness. The problem with war is, no two side always agree with each other on the same term (That's why war is started in the first place) and most importantly, most ususally, the one that actually start the argument on either side (The person who started the war), would not be in any part of that war.

You see, soldier follow orders, and when you are a soldier, regardless of rank, you would always have people above you that out rank you, and you always have people who listen to you. So, in Army term, shiite roll downhill and everyone, from General to Private, are simply following orders.

The orders, or objective (Another army term) however, is vague...It got pipe-down, translated thru different layer of rank and protocol and it defined and refined over and over again during the chain of command. And the order it came from the very top is very much unregonizible when the 2LT ordering his platoon and the private or sergeant who follow it.

Soldier follow orders, no matter how ridicious it was, the problem is not the order itself, but the people who gave those order. See, in company level, each of us is just doing our job, how you could perform an attack, and try to minimal the risk that your men expose to. The reason is simple, because wherever your men go, you are usually just steps behind. Sometime to most of the time, you are actually in front, damn that lead by example bullshite...

Whatever you do, you think of your men, and when it got down to smaller and more individual, the reckoning is simple. "It is your life"

Things is not the same work in Battalion Level. They have to please the staff level people, the top brass, and their leadership constitution and position is weak too, i mean, being relieved of command of a battalion is a very much "THE BIGGEST JOKE" you can get in the military. so, arse-kissing is a must for some of the battalion CO.

As for how to please your boss?? Well, by taking riskes. You do something other wouldn't, you trying to outdo each other. How far my battalion goes verus how far does yours goes? How many objective our battalion took vs how many yours took. Battalion commander have a things for out doing each other, it would have been fine when you are in peace time when you are talking about how many clicks your battalion march, how many dish yours wash, how many barrack cleaned and so on. In war, those "Objective" would become how many enemy your battalion neutralised, how many insurgencey enclave neutralised, how many suspect insurgent you took prisoner and how much ground you had covered. Those kind of things does not comes with the risk of the people who are actually doing it, i don't see my battalion commaner next to me when we took that objective in Badghdad or Fullajah.

However, that ain't the worse, the shiite is smellier when it rolled higher in the chain of command. Now, we are talking about the stars, and the bird. They only have two things in mind. Where is my objective, and when can i achieve my objective. For them, their order is simple, it could be "I need that hill", "I need your battalions to move 2 mile North of us" and followed by the question "When can your battalion get there??" Did they have the feel for the little guys that actaully make that happen? Well.........

They do battlefield accessment however, a mathematical calculation on how quick a fully equipped battalion can move, against the level of defence. All BS to the lowly soldier, execpt when it goes down to the casualty prediction. For the Generals and Colonels, you are just a number, not a name, nor not even a serial number, just a percentage, the percentage of people they need for the objective. They don't care about you, hell, they don't even know you.

The top brass is not stupid, they know it would be useless to capture an objective with heavy casualty, by then you will not have enough to hold the objective. So, they will do a casualty estimation everytime they start a major ops. For example, it would be acceptable if we suffer 40% casualty in order to take that particular objective, be that a hill, a bunker or a country. But it would not be acceptable if we suffer 50% casualty. Quite caring, don't ya think?? Do you know what that means?

That means, when you stand infront of a heavily fortified hilltop, it is acceptable for you to lose 40% of your people (Yourselve maybe included) to charge that hill with basic infantry equipment. That is because the same top brass think the help from an AC-130 is not economical for said battle. You still don't get it?? That mean you, and 40% of the people around you are acceptable loses for that particular objective. Now, tell me, what would you think if you are the person that's standing infront of that objective and prepare to carry out the order??

Oh, i forgot to mention one thing, everybody start from scratch, meaning you have to go thru the stage of getting crap, then you can dish out some, NOBODY START FROM THE TOP

 

[jhungary]

War is everything BUT GLORY

Well, crap orders, i can get over that, you may say. But will it be the same when you are facing shiity environment too??

War is messy, things that you enjoy, you taken for granted for will not be there, battlefield is a place where you cannot call anything for more than 5 minutes a day, shite in a hole you dug, where food have been preselected, and you can only choose between shiite and crap. Well, at least it is hot shiite and crap. Unlike the real shiite and crap that you eat going out on an Operation. If you ask me, i think we should start a challenge, anyone who can survive for 10 days eating nothing but MREs and water should be awarded a medal of some sort.

I know what you are thinking, i am tough, I can take when you took away my decents living. Oh well, how about the madness in battle?? Have you ever under fire so intense that you have dig your head down and try to bury it under the sand? Have you ever try to pray to anyone, Allah, Jesus, Buddah or Holy Virgin Mary so that your head can sink an inch deeper so no crap can hit you? Have you ever run away and turn your back on your enemy and hope you run fast enough so nothing would hit you? Have you ever see or feel the effect of danger close??

See, when you call a fire mission and you are within 600 meter of your intented target. You are danger close, when a normal shell shapnel can reach 750 meters to 1 km from the point of impact. The range would be extent to 2 kilometer when you are calling naval gun, cruise missile and Fast air. Hmm....i try calling fast air within 300 meter of the target. you know how it feels? First it came with the skeeting sound of an incoming jet. It was loud as hell, you hear from a mile away and you don't need to see'em, just by judging the noise you know he is coming to bomb you (or your target) and within those 15-20 second, you keep thinking "Do i have the right co-ordinate when i call them" or "What if they drop the bomb early?" or "What happen when they dropped to the wrong target?"

Then the bomb hits. "ka-BOOOOM" a truely deafening sound, a small bomb no less, a snakeeye, 500 pundered. Still, you can only hear ringing and a sharp high pitch tone and the sensation is funny when you are looking at people talking, yet all you can hear is that high pitch tone. Blood started drip out of your eardrum. Then you know, your eardrum had been ruptured.

That was not the worse thing however, the air got sucked in by the explosion, meaning you cannot breathe (Or rather you breathe but not enough air could takes in) at that same moment the bomb goes ka-boom. And then come the supersonic sound wave. It can knock a 6 ft 4, 210 pounds person a few feet backward if he is standing up.

That wasn't the worse thing too however, you want to know what worse?? Its that, after all that sensation, you realise you are still in the fight, and people still shooting at you regardless of the damage you had done, you, had to come back from that disorientation sensation to 100% function in the matter of second, or you will be killed. That is the worse thing i can think of after calling in a danger close. And still, i do not call that danger close because i wanted to, or i got nothing else better to do, but indeed i actually preferred that than if i do not call them. So you can imagine how fucked is the situation is for me to call one.

After 4 days of fighting, you are covered with dirt, sweat, blood, tears and soots, you smell like you know what, you had pee your pants i don't know how many time and probably shiite in your own pants once or twice. How long have it been since you wet and crap your pants?? And you did that not because you are afraid of anything, (well, not entirely true) but you had no time at all to do number 1 and number 2. If you want privacy, go somewhere we can't see you, if you want to be safe, go somewhere you can, now ask yourselves this, do you really need to go that bad?? (I think i was a quote from a TV show, i forgot which one)

After this, you have to fight, staying alive on top of your death and the enemy death. How gloried trying to fight, roll around, run across, take cover behind a human body, your people or your enemy?? You will not try to walk across someone who just got killed getting hit by a bus, imagine you have to lie next to him, with bloods and guts still dripping out, probably half a brain missing and a big hole in the head. And you need to stay in that place and fight for any amount of time?

The art of killing

Still, heat of battle, i don't know about anyone, maybe you got pumped by your adrenaline, and you can ignore all that. Well, at the end of the day, this is the line which seperated the alive and the death, the sane and the insane. Still, have you ever imagine what will ever happen to you, when you are 1 year after the war, 5 years after the war and 10 years after the war??

Image of death and carnage is seared into your brain, you may think you are above it all and you will be able to forget about that, truth is, quite opposite.

If you had ever witness an incredible carnage, like a fatal traffic accident, you will still remember some sketchy detail a long time after it happened. You will, however, remember every single detail in any traffic accident, regardless of seriousness, that you have direct involvement. Now tell me, will you ever forget the detail and circumstance when you literally kill a person, BY YOU?

People in this forum, i have seen many and many time, saying "Kill all Vietnamese", "Kill all American", "Kill all Chinese", "Kill all Japanese", "Kill all pakistani" or "Kill all indian" Kill all whatever, as if they are an expert on killing people.

It's easy to say then done, to kill a person, you have to have a strong conviction that that person deserved to be dead, don't come to me and say i kill him because i don't like [Insert Nationality here], you won't just go kill a guy walking in the street just because you hate a particular group of people. But in war, you tend to justify killing by the same 'ol reason, if i don't kill him, i will be dead, dubbed the "Better him than you" reasoning. Ok, that indeed flys in the heat of battle, but what ever happen to you when you are not fighting any war, with no more urge to kill? You started tp think.

I will not go there again and tell you what you would have think of, if you read the interview i have done on PDF you will know, but in all, silly question that started to compound and now trying to eat you up. Up to a point, you are getting recurring nightmare of the event running over and over again. How you feel when you take that man life away and you started to play the mental game of "What it could have been?" you starting running simulation in your brain and replay the same event with each time different outcome.

This kind of thing will eat you up, up to a point you want to take your own life so you don't need to think about it again, or dream about it again. At some point and some time, Suicide did appear in my mind and not proud to say, i have even tried it. Now i got a nice scar on my left wrist as a reminder of the whole episode. What people say is true, if you want to kill another person just because you hated him, the stronger you hate them, the stronger you will hate yourselves when you kill that person or people.
It is unatural to want to kill someone that done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to you, if you do hate that someone that bad to warrant these response, then you have a problem.

 

[jhungary]

Why we fights

Ok, all negative on war. then why would i go to war?? That is a good question.
First of all, i got no choice, i choose to be a soldier, and that is a soldier job to go to war. But if you ask me, if i had came to know all these BEFORE choosing to be a soldier, will i do it over again?? You bet your arse i will.

I fight, WE fight, not for our country, nor for our leader, that's just some BS excuse to go to war. It's easy to raise patroitism when y'all getting a national high on those crap. You ask any soldier in that matter, who gone to war, their belief, their political value means nothing to them, NOT A SINGLE GODDAMN THING No amount of money, medal or national pride can make a soldier charge a hilltop with basic infantry weapon. You do that for the person you served with, the "Person next to you", you hear them time and again, and people don't understand why this is a very important bond. You do it for the next guy, you know you do it so he can stay alive, and you will not let him down, the reason why you know this is because you know exactly he (or she, have to be political correct now) will do the same because s/he do it so you can stay alive. That's all we fight. That's why we don't look at odds and stuff and fall into a grenade for the next person, because you would expect him to do the same if he saw a grenade thrown next to you

And unless you are one of us, whenever people start peaching to go to war with someone else because of some stupid idea or hatred, you are insulting every warfighter in this world, while soldier want peace, stupid people wants war. If you ask me, people who preach going to war should have given 2 choices by their government. Either being shot right then and there, or presented with a form of enlistment.

If you want to kill someone so bad, you need to do it yourselves, it's very easy to have or ask somepeople to fight for you. Until you had seen and experienced the carnage you help created, you have no right asking to start a war.

 

[cnleio]

Ths, i like it.

 

[forcetrip]

The 10 day challenge should be a great way for people posting about killing things on this very forum. Being a country with no resources they should make their way back into the country and see how it feels when their children start crying after day 4 when there is nothing to eat and drink. And praying will not bring you electricity or fuel to work that generator.

 

[fatman17]

there is one constant about War.....young men and women die for causes they do not fully understand...

 

[Capt.Popeye]

there is one constant about War.....young men and women die for causes they do not fully understand...

True indeed. And sometimes or even often-times; their Leaders do not know either!
Something that has remained supremely ironic about this whole "war business" through all the years.

 

[scorpionx]

there is one constant about War.....young men and women die for causes they do not fully understand...

Very rightly said,sir. The thing becomes most painful when innocent civilians fighting a war just for the sake of resistance or Soldiers sent to the battlefield (like operation mars in WW II) with just few bullets in hand only to distract their enemies.

 

[jhungary]

Ths, i like it.

Thanks

The 10 day challenge should be a great way for people posting about killing things on this very forum. Being a country with no resources they should make their way back into the country and see how it feels when their children start crying after day 4 when there is nothing to eat and drink. And praying will not bring you electricity or fuel to work that generator.

true. but i think the 10 days challenge is nothing compare to the people actually did suffer in any war, don't you think?

there is one constant about War.....young men and women die for causes they do not fully understand...

The original clause, as you said, is vague, in the end, soldier, marine, sailor, airmen alike akin to the same clause, we fight to kee[p each other alive, i did not go into that firing pits for my country nor my government, i go because they go, and if i don't go with them, i will simply let them down,

People don't really know why soldier do what they do, people don't know why the 2d light horse charge that hilltop on nek after the first 2 waves had been cut to shit. People don't know why the french para jump in diem bien phu even tho all hope was lost. And what generally sees that their effort has gone in vain.

True indeed. And sometimes or even often-times; their Leaders do not know either!
Something that has remained supremely ironic about this whole "war business" through all the years.

Well, actually, if i have a say, the leader do know why they fight, they just don't really care why. Fighting a war 10 thousand mile, being shelter away from all the gore and what really happened overthere. They know the clause and the cost for war, but like my wife said (She out rank me, so i had to listen) the higher up you go, the more detached you get, and you get detached so that you can function.

Maybe i will never know why the top do what they did, as i am simply a mere company grade officer, noone ever told me much, my wife could probably answer this better, as she is the lowest field grade officer.

Very rightly said,sir. The thing becomes most painful when innocent civilians fighting a war just for the sake of resistance or Soldiers sent to the battlefield (like operation mars in WW II) with just few bullets in hand only to distract their enemies.

People got sucked in from all sort, indeed, fighting a war cost live, live that should not be lost, but it did.

it is truely amazing to see how one man, one ambition can change the live of so many. People from all sort got sucked in, for that it is a single mind that started all there


@WebMaster @Aeronaut, please take care of this piece of shit

 

[chauvunist]

@jhungary ....Sir,a very well written piece and should be a lesson to warmongers and keyboard warriors here on this Forum and elsewhere...

 

[IND151]

War is an natural subject on a defence forum, the aim of a Defence Force or a Military is to fight a war, many membere here talk about war, many of those go into deep and advocate one and sing praise and bang wardrum all over the place. But what do you actually know about war?? Let me, a veteran of 1 and a half war, show you the rope.

War is a concept, where 2 parties or more, fought to achieve some goal. An Objective if you insist to put a word for it.

People who have an education, whom have a TV set will tell you, War is a glorious thing, to die for your country is proud, and the excitment of war, the thrill you get from killing your enemy is satisifying feeling. And that most of them seems to think War is one of the way (Some say the ONLY way) for power projection.

What is war, really?

War, as i said, is a concept to settle a conflict, an conflict of idea perhaps, but a conflict nonetheness. The problem with war is, no two side always agree with each other on the same term (That's why war is started in the first place) and most importantly, most ususally, the one that actually start the argument on either side (The person who started the war), would not be in any part of that war.

You see, soldier follow orders, and when you are a soldier, regardless of rank, you would always have people above you that out rank you, and you always have people who listen to you. So, in Army term, shiite roll downhill and everyone, from General to Private, are simply following orders.

The orders, or objective (Another army term) however, is vague...It got pipe-down, translated thru different layer of rank and protocol and it defined and refined over and over again during the chain of command. And the order it came from the very top is very much unregonizible when the 2LT ordering his platoon and the private or sergeant who follow it.

Soldier follow orders, no matter how ridicious it was, the problem is not the order itself, but the people who gave those order. See, in company level, each of us is just doing our job, how you could perform an attack, and try to minimal the risk that your men expose to. The reason is simple, because wherever your men go, you are usually just steps behind. Sometime to most of the time, you are actually in front, damn that lead by example bullshite...

Whatever you do, you think of your men, and when it got down to smaller and more individual, the reckoning is simple. "It is your life"

Things is not the same work in Battalion Level. They have to please the staff level people, the top brass, and their leadership constitution and position is weak too, i mean, being relieved of command of a battalion is a very much "THE BIGGEST JOKE" you can get in the military. so, arse-kissing is a must for some of the battalion CO.

As for how to please your boss?? Well, by taking riskes. You do something other wouldn't, you trying to outdo each other. How far my battalion goes verus how far does yours goes? How many objective our battalion took vs how many yours took. Battalion commander have a things for out doing each other, it would have been fine when you are in peace time when you are talking about how many clicks your battalion march, how many dish yours wash, how many barrack cleaned and so on. In war, those "Objective" would become how many enemy your battalion neutralised, how many insurgencey enclave neutralised, how many suspect insurgent you took prisoner and how much ground you had covered. Those kind of things does not comes with the risk of the people who are actually doing it, i don't see my battalion commaner next to me when we took that objective in Badghdad or Fullajah.

However, that ain't the worse, the shiite is smellier when it rolled higher in the chain of command. Now, we are talking about the stars, and the bird. They only have two things in mind. Where is my objective, and when can i achieve my objective. For them, their order is simple, it could be "I need that hill", "I need your battalions to move 2 mile North of us" and followed by the question "When can your battalion get there??" Did they have the feel for the little guys that actaully make that happen? Well.........

They do battlefield accessment however, a mathematical calculation on how quick a fully equipped battalion can move, against the level of defence. All BS to the lowly soldier, execpt when it goes down to the casualty prediction. For the Generals and Colonels, you are just a number, not a name, nor not even a serial number, just a percentage, the percentage of people they need for the objective. They don't care about you, hell, they don't even know you.

The top brass is not stupid, they know it would be useless to capture an objective with heavy casualty, by then you will not have enough to hold the objective. So, they will do a casualty estimation everytime they start a major ops. For example, it would be acceptable if we suffer 40% casualty in order to take that particular objective, be that a hill, a bunker or a country. But it would not be acceptable if we suffer 50% casualty. Quite caring, don't ya think?? Do you know what that means?

That means, when you stand infront of a heavily fortified hilltop, it is acceptable for you to lose 40% of your people (Yourselve maybe included) to charge that hill with basic infantry equipment. That is because the same top brass think the help from an AC-130 is not economical for said battle. You still don't get it?? That mean you, and 40% of the people around you are acceptable loses for that particular objective. Now, tell me, what would you think if you are the person that's standing in front of that objective and prepare to carry out the order??

Oh, i forgot to mention one thing, everybody start from scratch, meaning you have to go thru the stage of getting crap, then you can dish out some, NOBODY START FROM THE TOP

There is another thing that the Top Brass has to worry about- Battle of Accounts; the concerned scenarios emerge due to the limited budget sanctioned to armed forces.

Then there are authorities to whom Top Brass is answerable- Pentagon/ South Block.

 

[forcetrip]

Thanks
true. but i think the 10 days challenge is nothing compare to the people actually did suffer in any war, don't you think?

10 days? I bet you everything I own most of these posters will have changed their minds half way through. If not then there would be a more deep psychological problem if you find it better to live scavenging the streets and making sense of the vague religious prophecies to be coming true.

 

[Anubis]

@jhungary Great piece.Thank you.As you said you go to war for the next guy or the guy beside you.Why do people join the armed forces in the first place.Compared to any other job Military is unique.What drives people to join a risky and potentially fatal job?I know there are other jobs from truckers to test pilots which are risky but what drives people to join a profession which requires you to kill or be killed?

 

[fizza iqbal]

The politicians' stirring phrases are meant to keep our eyes averted from the reality of war -- to make us imagine heroic young men marching in parades, winning glorious battles, and bringing peace and democracy to the world.

But war is something quite different from that.

It is your children or your grandchildren dying before they're even fully adults, or being maimed or mentally scarred for life. It is your brothers and sisters being taught to kill other people -- and to hate people who are just like themselves and who don't want to kill anyone either. It is your children seeing their buddies' limbs blown off their bodies.

It is hundreds of thousands of human beings dying years before their time. It is millions of people separated forever from the ones they loved.

It is the destruction of homes for which people worked for decades. It is the end of careers that meant as much to others as your career means to you.

It is the imposition of heavy taxes on you and on other Americans and on people in other countries -- taxes that remain long after the war is over. It is the suppression of free speech and the jailing of people who criticize the government.

It is the imposition of slavery by forcing young men to serve in the military.

It is goading the public to hate foreign people and races -- whether Arabs or Japanese or Cubans. It is numbing our sensibilities to cruelties inflicted on foreigners.

It is cheering at the news of foreign pilots killed in their planes, of young men blown to bits while trapped inside tanks, of sailors drowned at sea.

Other tragedies inevitably trail in the wake of war. Politicians lie even more than usual. Secrecy and cover-ups become the rule rather than the exception. The press becomes even less reliable.

War is genocide, torture, cruelty, propaganda, dishonesty, and slavery.

 

[Esc8781]

@jhungary On the topic of obeying the officer with a higher rank, from character development classes (Civil Air Patrol the USAF's auxiliary), I believe that coincides with the first core value, integrity. Integrity states when the officer with a higher rank gives you commands that is immoral, the person shouldn't follow that command, but it also breaks the chain-of-command (kind of). Is that true? Thanks for the reply.