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What can India Do About Pakistan?

you are right bro but the thing is kashmir is the onli thing that genrates support for pakistani establishment from pakistani nation and to extend from other parties but then again kya faraq parta hai :D

Its a rallying flag. Like any other. A convenient one. A strategic one.

If that flag is taken away, another must and will be propped up in its place.

The core lies not in the cause of the conflict but the conflict itself.
 
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Its a rallying flag. Like any other. A convenient one. A strategic one.

If that flag is taken away, another must and will be propped up in its place.

The core lies not in the cause of the conflict but the conflict itself.
in short as some shayar said holds so true for pakistani nation as a whole : ab manzil se achhe lagne lagge hain raste .... cheers doc
 
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Short answer to the title question is a big "Nothing".

IMO I think India is frustrated at not being able to take Kashmir after all these years and wars despite all the "advantages".

And ever since Nukes came into the picture, Now it just want's to sit there and sulk in self pity, occasionally throwing toys out of her pram in the form of LOC violations. ;)

Thanks
 
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I have similar thoughts on this 100 year timeline actually. A permanent shedding of our colonial past. Don't know about how Pakistanis view it, but I would like to think that we have a living heritage and history of blood, faith and soil, of a single civilization of thousands of years. An unbroken living legacy unparalleled in the world today, with the remnants of now-dead civilizations morphing into completely unrecognizable entities.

With this as a backdrop, what is 200 years? Or 500? A blip. The blink of an eye.

Why then do we need to keep celebrating the 15th of August as the apex national holiday? And what makes independence from British rule more important for us as a nation than independence of the rule of other foreign rule before that?

See my point?

26th January? Sure. But I have my increasing reservations about the 15th of August. Both the name and the continuing significance when seen against the bigger picture.

I realize this has probably got little to do with the topic being discussed, but it was just a thought triggered by your post.
You're right, in the grander scheme of things, it is a blip

it's still early days for post colonial modern India as we know it today, but our current identity as a nation state, it's territorial borders and as it's people is all set to endure for a very long time, I don't see any big wars, major civil strife, or serious secessionist movements from where we are at today.

so in that context I guess it's ok to 'feel good' about our constitution and years of freedom from the days of the British Raj twice a year
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They already did the following... and failed miserably .

1. Appointing a Failed Spy (Ajit Barks-a-lot Doval) as NSA, whose only skill is boasting
2. Supporting terrorist outfits like TTP, BLA, UBA, BLF among others
3. Providing funds to political parties like MQM to create instability in Pakistan
4. Investing $billions in Afghanistan to turn them into hostile territory & enemy of Pakistan.
5. Investing In Iran to promote sectarian violence & to take advantage of rifts between Iran & Pakistan
6. Attacking Iranian border guards through their proxy's to create border tensions between Pakistan & Iran.
7. Violating LOC to divert attention of our forces from their other activities.
8. Attacking Sectarian leaders to start sectarian violence
9. trying to create distance between Pakistan & its long term friends (UAE,KSA)
10. Spending Millions to influence the media channels in Pakistan to promote propaganda against Pak Army.


Their turn is over... Now its our Turn........
 
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They already did the following... and failed miserably .

1. Appointing a Failed Spy (Ajit Barks-a-lot Doval) as NSA, whose only skill is boasting
2. Supporting terrorist outfits like TTP, BLA, UBA, BLF among others
3. Providing funds to political parties like MQM to create instability in Pakistan
4. Investing $billions in Afghanistan to turn them into hostile territory & enemy of Pakistan.
5. Investing In Iran to promote sectarian violence & to take advantage of rifts between Iran & Pakistan
6. Attacking Iranian border guards through their proxy's to create border tensions between Pakistan & Iran.
7. Violating LOC to divert attention of our forces from their other activities.
8. Attacking Sectarian leaders to start sectarian violence
9. trying to create distance between Pakistan & its long term friends (UAE,KSA)
10. Spending Millions to influence the media channels in Pakistan to promote propaganda against Pak Army.


Their turn is over... Now its our Turn........

Hi F.O.X.

Good to see you around buddy.

Another ID from the ancient past. And another man of few words too. :tup:
 
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They already did the following... and failed miserably .

1. Appointing a Failed Spy (Ajit Barks-a-lot Doval) as NSA, whose only skill is boasting
2. Supporting terrorist outfits like TTP, BLA, UBA, BLF among others
3. Providing funds to political parties like MQM to create instability in Pakistan
4. Investing $billions in Afghanistan to turn them into hostile territory & enemy of Pakistan.
5. Investing In Iran to promote sectarian violence & to take advantage of rifts between Iran & Pakistan
6. Attacking Iranian border guards through their proxy's to create border tensions between Pakistan & Iran.
7. Violating LOC to divert attention of our forces from their other activities.
8. Attacking Sectarian leaders to start sectarian violence
9. trying to create distance between Pakistan & its long term friends (UAE,KSA)
10. Spending Millions to influence the media channels in Pakistan to promote propaganda against Pak Army.


Their turn is over... Now its our Turn........


Another remarkable post by an analyst....

3. Providing funds to political parties like MQM to create instability in Pakistan

Even if we did, so what? Is MQM a banned organisation? Has it been banned? If not, nothing for you here. If anyone has to answer, it must be MQM which is a legally registered party.
 
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India does not have to do anything about Pakistan. Just ignore them. Continue the current policy of 1:5 response, when they provoke. Pakistan's problems are their own making.

India's problems are infrastructure, development, corruption and education. Focus on these
 
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NO, the let me guess part was in the original post.
No...i meant the edited part which said you did not expect it from me. Lol

I think its not in best of india's interest to ignore pakistan for few year, given that Modi is trying to build good global relations and encircling the pakistan, avoiding talks with pakistan will send a negative signals. Rather calling pakistan to table every time, is seen as positive step from india and if pakistan jumps out, it gives a negative image of pakistan, which favours India in the game plan. Strong diplomatic relations with the countries that influnces pakistan will give us better standing when bringing pakistan to table.
High time we stopped following the trend, for once India should stop bothering about "what others would think?". Can't the world see Pakistan's attitude towards peace talks? why is it always India which feels guilty about the failure of a peace talk?? Are not both the countries equally responsible???
Freeze all relations with Pakistan and give them time to introspect, thats all I'm saying.
 
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Nothing just give Moozi pair of ba....lls..:devil:
India, Pakistan struggle to climb out of talks crater
  • Rezaul H Laskar, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
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  • Updated: Aug 25, 2015 19:14 IST
04250d77-10f1-41c8-96c8-adea921f168ewallpaper1.jpg

A combination photo of National Security Adviser Ajit Kumar Doval and his Pakistani counterpart Sartaj Aziz (File Photos)

  • The agonising, bit-by-bit disintegration of their planned talks over the weekend has reduced India and Pakistan to planning low-level official exchanges and precluded the possibility of a broader engagement any time soon.

    Despite a hardening of Islamabad’s stance that has raised more questions about the future of a bilateral peace process that has been stalled for more than six years, Pakistan has indicated it will go ahead with a planned meeting of the heads of border guarding forces on September 6.

    But after talks between the national security advisers (NSAs) collapsed because the two sides were unable to agree on an agenda and Pakistan insisted on going ahead with a meeting with Kashmiri separatists, the leadership in Islamabad has laid down conditions for future high-level parleys.

    Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif has said any dialogue with India that does not include the Kashmir issue will be futile while NSA Sartaj Aziz, the de facto foreign minister, has said Pakistan will not take the initiative for a meeting on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly in September. After the latest fiasco, it is difficult to see the Indian side reaching out unconditionally.

    When Prime Ministers Narendra Modi and Sharif met in the Russian city of Ufa on July 10, the joint statement issued after their talks clearly stated the NSAs would only “discuss all issues connected to terrorism”.

    The strong criticism Sharif faced on his return home because the statement did not include the “K” word probably led to Pakistan’s subsequent gambit to expand the agenda for the meeting of the NSAs to “all outstanding issues”, including Kashmir, and to its invitation to Hurriyat leaders to meet Aziz.

    Read| Failed diplomacy: Why Indo-Pak NSA talks collapsed

    Baqir Sajjad, diplomatic correspondent for Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper, said both sides had dug themselves into a hole.

    “India is focused on terrorism and Pakistan wants to talk about all issues that have bedevilled relations. They will have to work out a format for (future) talks,” he told HT from Islamabad.

    Sajjad said the two sides will have to work to find “some sort of balance”. But that could be easier said than done.

    Since the 2008 Mumbai attacks, India and Pakistan have had no substantial engagements. They have also struggled to agree on a format to take forward the stalled peace process, with Pakistan calling for the resumption of the erstwhile composite dialogue process while India has indicated that all talks should focus on terrorism and security-related concerns.

    “India must remain engaged with the peace constituency in Pakistan while remaining cognisant of the deep state that has an interest in maintaining a certain amount of simmer,” said Commodore (retired) C Uday Bhaskar, director of the think tank Society for Policy Studies.

    “Those who think India scored a point over the NSA-level talks should realise this will be a Pyrrhic victory in the long run. We should not close the windows so that there is an opportunity for Pakistan can come back on track.”

    Some observers feel the atmosphere was further sullied by Aziz’s recent remarks about nuclear-armed Pakistan being capable of defending itself against “Modi’s India (that) acts as if they are a regional superpower”, but Bhaskar noted that such threats are part of the sabre-rattling to which Islamabad has traditionally resorted.

    The BJP-led government in New Delhi will be under no pressure for a quick resumption of contacts with Islamabad. Building relations with Pakistan is not a priority for its core constituency and the government will be reluctant to make a fresh push after its attempt to reach out to Pakistan at Ufa ended in the NSA talks fiasco.

    In Pakistan, Prime Minister Sharif and his government have little say in deciding foreign policy, which is directed by the generals in Rawalpindi, and any effort to normalise ties is unlikely.

    It is now becoming increasingly obvious that India and Pakistan will have to go back to the drawing board to find ways to take the peace process forward. But terrorism will be central to this process – New Delhi may have to make concessions on its terrorism-first stance while Islamabad, which has taken a series of steps against domestic terrorist groups, will have to finally come good on its pledges to counter anti-India militants.
India, Pakistan struggle to climb out of talks crater
 
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By Shyam Saran on 25/08/2015


Delhi must look at talks as a means of enabling sustained diplomacy, rather than as a bargaining chip or form of penalty — whose denial will somehow become a pressure-point on Islamabad

File photo of Pakistan’s Prime Miniser, Nawaz Sharif, with Army Chief General Raheel Sharif. Credit: ISPR

The India-Pakistan talks have been called off and the sense of relief in Islamabad and, one suspects, New Delhi, must be palpable. Within days of the joint statement at Ufa last month, it became clear that the calculations on which the resumption of a dialogue process may have been envisaged had come undone. Stung by the widespread political as well as public criticism of having omitted any reference to Kashmir from the joint statement, the Nawaz Sharif government went into overdrive to insist there could be no talks without J&K being part of the agenda. On the India-Pakistan border and Line of Control, ceasefire violations mounted and two major cross-border terrorist incidents followed, one in Gurdaspur, Punjab and the other in Udhampur, Jammu & Kashmir. A “living dossier” in the form of the Pakistani national, Naved, was captured during the latter incident. He cheerfully admitted to being a Lashkar-e-Tayyaba jihadist and expressed delight at having been given the opportunity to kill Hindus.

Nawaz Sharif has clearly been unwilling or unable to rein in the military leadership or the terrorist group, the LeT. If the Indian strategy is to engage the Pakistani civilian leadership, while retaliating robustly to cross-border provocations by its military—hoping thereby to strengthen a pro-peace constituency in Pakistan—this has proved to be a non-starter. The Pakistan Army has demonstrated time and again that it exercises a virtual veto over the country’s policies towards India, Afghanistan, the United States and China. Except for India, these countries maintain parallel and probably deeper relations with the Pakistan military, acknowledging the reality of its over-riding authority.

Once the Pakistani military had made its opposition apparent and escalated violence on and across the border with India, the proposed meeting between the two National Security Advisers was doomed.


The assumption that the civilian, democratically elected government in Islamabad, is in favour of better relations with India is only partially true. It is a complex but interpenetrated political, bureaucratic and military elite which rules Pakistan. There may be nuanced differences among its constituents, but they share a deeply adversarial perception of India. Furthermore, it is presumptuous to believe that India can significantly influence the domestic political dynamic in Pakistan. Change in Pakistan will come from how internal forces play themselves out. This is not to suggest that India should not play different constituencies in Pakistan differently. It should, but with only modest expectations.

Pakistani calculations

India-Pakistan relations are, by their very nature, adversarial. This is rooted in widely divergent but deeply entrenched historical and national narratives. Each side has a different view of why partition took place, how the Kashmir dispute erupted, or why the wars of 1965 and 1971 were fought. Even liberal Pakistanis believe that cross-border terrorism is explicable, if not justifiable, because of an asymmetric threat from India. Such competing narratives can be reconciled only over a long period of patient engagement in which historical fact is separated from its politically generated distortions.

The expectation of a spectacular and emotional grand reconciliation, as between long estranged brothers, is a seductive myth which a succession of Indian leaders and civil society advocates have fallen prey to. Reconciliation and expanded cooperation will be the cumulative culmination of a series of continuous, modest, but nevertheless, practical steps to improve relations. Conversely—and as we have seen repeatedly in the recent past—any suggestion of a more than modest initiative promising a transformed relationship has inevitably led to a backlash from elements deeply invested in hostility.

Whatever be the official rhetoric in Islamabad, there is a broad elite consensus that the use of cross-border terrorism has proved to be remarkably effective in advancing Pakistan’s aims vis-à-vis India and Afghanistan. The possession of a nuclear deterrent, it is believed, shields Pakistan from serious military retaliation. The military establishment also believes that Pakistan’s adversaries, either by choice or by compulsion, are unable to play the same covert game of tit-for-tat. In the case of India, Islamabad has escaped retribution despite Pakistan-based terrorists launching progressively more serious terrorist attacks against Indian targets, including the horrific assault on Mumbai in 2008. In Afghanistan, its use of cross-border terrorism is seen validated by the US withdrawal from the country and its acquiescence in a Pakistani lead role in any political settlement of the long-drawn out civil war. Unless this strategic calculus in Islamabad undergoes a change, it is unlikely that we shall see anything more than a tactical adjustment in response to immediate pressures.

Changing the Pakistani strategic calculus requires measures on multiple fronts. There is no silver bullet. What are the levers which, taken together, could raise the cost to Pakistan, of continuing with its current posture?

Inhibitions to be overcome

India must dispense with the implicit anxiety that the disintegration of Pakistan or its descent into chaos,will confront India with an existential crisis. Whether Pakistan descends into chaos or disintegrates will depend upon what its people want and how the domestic political dynamic plays itself out in the country. India is mostly irrelevant in this regard. To refrain from imposing penalties on Pakistan’s rulers for fear of stoking chaos, is a flawed proposition. Is it not strange that Pakistan’s fragility is advertised as a mitigating circumstance even while its resilience and survivability is lauded by one analyst after another? Pakistan is often said to be suicidal but it has always shown a remarkable willingness to cut deals which ensure its survival and maintain the privileges of its self-entitled elite. We should be clear that we are dealing with a state that is coldly calculating in its pursuit of its declared interests.

Pakistan also uses the linguistic and cultural affinities between the peoples of the two countries to arouse sentimentality, which it then uses to obscure its fully unsentimental aims as a state with hostile intent. The Indian side, particularly political leaders, often fall prey to such tactics, sometimes quite unconsciously.The affinity is a reality to be acknowledged and used to advance relations if possible, but it should never be allowed to influence the calculus of inter-state relations.

Once these unspoken but severely limiting inhibitions are abandoned, then one can begin to look at what one would normally do faced with an adversarial state.

We have several pressure points which we have been loathe to use despite there being no corresponding Pakistani restraint. We have a formal claim on Gilgit Baltistan but since the Simla Agreement we have rarely articulated it, let alone pressed it determinedly. We have been reluctant to receive people from Gilgit Baltistan or raise our voice when their rights are violated. Our silence on the horrific human rights violations in Balochistan is misplaced. Thanks to its harbouring of Osama Bin Laden and Mullah Omar, Pakistan has earned its reputation of being an “epicentre of terror”. We could be much more active internationally to exploit that negative image. This should go hand in hand with the strengthening of our own security capabilities in preventing cross-border terrorism and retaliating against military provocations.

Denying dialogue does not help

At the same time, there are positive elements to be pursued through parallel, sustained and patient engagement. This means that talks should be pursued enabling sustained diplomacy, and not used as a bargaining chip or as a weak form of penalty. Doing so is acknowledgement that India has no effective levers to influence behaviour on the other side. In the past few years our response pattern has convinced Pakistan that after every crisis it is India which feels compelled to return to the table without a Pakistani quid pro quo. Therefore, any notion that holding back on dialogue is a pressure point on Pakistan, is no longer valid.

Other positive actions include promotion of people-to-people contact at all levels through a more liberal visa policy, unilateral if necessary. Even the limited visa liberalisation since 2004 has significantly increased the traffic between the two countries and there is a huge pent up demand in Pakistan for travel to India. There are close cultural affinities between the two countries and Bollywood is an indispensable part of the fabric of Pakistani life. These are underused assets.

The positive impact of increased exposure of Pakistani citizens to India will chip away at the contrived hostility that is encouraged by the Pakistani ruling elite, but this is a long-term endeavour requiring perseverance and patience. It should be our effort to promote exchanges among civil society, media and even the armed forces, such as NDC to NDC or Defence Staff College interactions. The promotion of bilateral trade and commercial exchanges should be a priority, opening up the Indian market to Pakistan’s key export commodities. The objective of these and other initiatives should be to foster, over a period of time, a more balanced and varied relationship between the two countries.

Managing Pakistan is a challenge but approaching it as a state with rational calculations which can be influenced through a varied set of political, economic, military and cultural instruments will do much to remove the self-imposed inhibitions on the conduct of our policy. The shift in mindset is fundamental. The rollout and use of the levers outlined here will need to be graduated and incremental, with careful regard to timing and opportunity. This is what we do with other states. This is what we need to do with Pakistan.

Shyam Saran is a former Foreign Secretary. He is currently Chairman,RIS and Senior Fellow, Centre for Policy Research

What can India Do About Pakistan? | The Wire
Why does India need to do anything about Pakistan... just leave Pakistan to Pakistanis... they are pretty good at destroying their country themselves...
 
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Why does India need to do anything about Pakistan... just leave Pakistan to Pakistanis... they are pretty good at destroying their country themselves...

You know your post becomes redundant bordering stupid when you consider that you have 1982 posts on Defence.Pk, and there are dozens of you here. I wonder why is that when Baharat Mahan does not give a shit about Puny Pakistan?
 
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