What are Indian Problems with China, and how do we resolve them?

[Bussard Ramjet]

I would like here to have a detailed discussion on our relationship with China, and the potential for a sea change.

India and China, in my view, are NOT predestined to have a confrontational relationship, and I would illustrate below:

1. China is an Eastward placed and looking country. It's definition of its strategic backyard has always been South East Asia, and East Asia, which is the South and East China Sea littorals.
2. India on the other hand is a west looking country. We view Indian Ocean as our backyard, with SAARC countries as our strategic depth.
3. Unlike with Pakistan, China sponsors no activity on a non-state level that is harmful to India.
4. Unlike Pakistan, we also have limited disputes with China.

So I would like to list challenges and problems in the relationship first. Then we can perhaps talk about remedies.

I can start by some of the most common ones being:

1. Support to Pakistan
2. Territorial Problems
3. Perceived Encroachment of Strategic Backyard

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

@Syama Ayas @HariPrasad Can you invite others here as well?

 

[The Ultranationalist]

china too supports communist guerrilas of India like maoists and naxalites and provides them arms and ammunitions jut like pakistan supports islamic terrorism in India

 

[Niyogi]

[*]China is an Eastward placed and looking country. It's definition of its strategic backyard has always been South East Asia, and East Asia, which is the South and East China Sea littorals.

China has moved beyond this and now has a global view.

[*]India on the other hand is a west looking country. We view Indian Ocean as our backyard, with SAARC countries as our strategic depth.

India too have started to move away from Nehruvian bias and have started looking east.

[*]Unlike with Pakistan, China sponsors no activity on a non-state level that is harmful to India.

Pakistan sends terrorists under the Nuclear umbrella provided by the Chinese and the Americans. Terrorists are the proxies for pakistan and pakistan is the proxy for China.

[*]Unlike Pakistan, we also have limited disputes with China.

True. But unlike china, we respect pakistan. China do not respect us for whatever reason.

So I would like to list challenges and problems in the relationship first. Then we can perhaps talk about remedies.

Remedy is simple, earn China's respect if you want them to talk to you and respect your space.

For that become rich and carry a Long Stick.

I can start by some of the most common ones being:

1. Support to Pakistan
2. Territorial Problems
3. Perceived Encroachment of Strategic Backyard

These are only symptoms of the problem. Not the problem itself.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

china too supports communist guerrilas of India like maoists and naxalites and provides them arms and ammunitions jut like pakistan supports islamic terrorism in India

Sources?

Also, just to mention here, we also support and give shelter to an active secessionist group of China- the Tibetans.

China has moved beyond this and now has a global view.



India too have started to move away from Nehruvian bias and have started looking east.



Pakistan sends terrorists under the Nuclear umbrella provided by the Chinese and the Americans. Terrorists are the proxies for pakistan and pakistan is the proxy for China.



True. But unlike china, we respect pakistan. China do not respect us for whatever reason.



Remedy is simple, earn China's respect if you want them to talk to you and respect your space.

For that become rich and carry a Long Stick.




These are only symptoms of the problem. Not the problem itself.

I don't think China has moved beyond its region. Rather, it has moved towards its region. Earlier China accepted total absolute US hegemony on waters as close as 100km to its coasts. Just look at all the deployments etc. Of course they have an interest in keeping their SLOC open in Indian Ocean, but they don't want to seek any kind of hegemony in the IOR like they want in China Seas.

Pakistan has been arming and training terrorists, or militants way before China even entered the conversation.


Don't give me this BS that we respect Pakistan.

Of course we have to earn respect, that is one of the part of the remedies, where we make everyone realize that ignoring Indian strategic interests is impossible.

So what is the problem?

 

[HariPrasad]

@Syama Ayas @HariPrasad Can you invite others here as well?

China wants to dominate the world and create a hegemony. Expansion and create small conflict to get favorable terms in negotiation is their policy to grab natural resources of neighboring countries to grow further rich. They were brutally torchered in past. Since the time of Mao, Every thing changed, They started becoming strong but in back of their mind there is a feeling that they were brutally torchered in past and we should take revenge. Mao tourchered Chinese people very much and had a vision like 4 pest experiment . He told that he did not mind if half of chinese people die. Remaining will build a beautiful china. So they went ahead with Mao's vision. They want India to be a banana republic. One of their general had revealed that they are planning to divide india in small state so that they can never challenge china. This is the reason they have very bad relations with almost all of their neighbors. China has border dispute with all its neighbors and most of them are not genuine but artificially created. So all this problem are the part of their well thought out policy.

We will have to become strong and devise a long term policy on china and pursue it aggressively. Modi has accepted the chinese challenge and he is following a robust counter strategy. Improving relation ship Japan, Philippines, Vietnam and Mongolia is a part of that policy. His whole act east policy has a theme of countering the china in its core. So there shall not be any solution of any border dispute with china in near future. Like America, we should also work to down china economically and weaken it so that the threat a strong china posses to whole world can be lessen.

 

[Niyogi]

I don't think China has moved beyond its region. Rather, it has moved towards its region. Earlier China accepted total absolute US hegemony on waters as close as 100km to its coasts. Just look at all the deployments etc. Of course they have an interest in keeping their SLOC open in Indian Ocean, but they don't want to seek any kind of hegemony in the IOR like they want in China Seas.

That is pure speculation. You are assuming what china wants or don't want.

China is selling Naval war machines to pakistan, BD , build ports in SL, have tried to bearth their naval asset in SL, has bullied Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, South Korea and Australia.

Why they think is irrelevant, WHAT they do is relevant.

Pakistan has been arming and training terrorists, or militants way before China even entered the conversation.

First they did it under the US umbrella, now its Chinese umbrella
.

Don't give me this BS that we respect Pakistan.

We used to speak to their political class even when we knew they are worthless puppets. THAT is how we extend respect to the pakistani people.

Of course we have to earn respect, that is one of the part of the remedies, where we make everyone realize that ignoring Indian strategic interests is impossible.

So what is the problem?

The problem is we are neither Rich nor do we have a Long stick.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

China wants to dominate the world and create a hegemony. Expansion and create small conflict to get favorable terms in negotiation is their policy to grab natural resources of neighboring countries to grow further rich. They were brutally torchered in past. Since the time of Mao, Every thing changed, They started becoming strong but in back of their mind there is a feeling that they were brutally torchered in past and we shall take revenge. Mao tourchered Chinese people very much and had a vision like 4 pest experiment . He told that he did not mind if half of chinese people die. Remaining will build a beautiful china. So they go ahead with Mao's vision. They want India to be a banana republic. One of their general had revealed that they are planning to divide india in small state so that they can never challenge china. This is the reason they have very bad relations with almost all of their neighbors. China has border dispute with all its neighbors and most of them are not genuine but artificially created. So all this problem are the part of their well thought out policy.

We will have to become strong and devise a long term policy on china and pursue it aggressively. Modi has accepted the chinese challenge and he is following a robust counter strategy. Improving relation ship Japan, Philippines, Vietnam and Mongolia is a part of that policy. His whole act east policy has a theme of countering the china in its core. So there shall not be any solution of any border dispute with china in near future. Like America, we should also work to down china economically and weaken it so that the threat a strong china posses to whole world can be lessen.

Many issues with your major points:

1. One single Chinese major's words don't mean much.
2. In contrast, don't we, and many of our leaders wish for splitting China?
3. It is factually incorrect to say that China has border disputes with all its neighbors, let me illustrate:
   They have land borders with 14 countries, almost all of which have been settled.
   Of the 14, they have no issues with North Korea, Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Myanmar, Laos, and Vietnam. (Only land borders, not sea territories)
   
   The only remaining are India, and Bhutan, a state that doesn't open a Chinese embassy in its country due to Indian pressure.
   
   Almost all disputes are on maritime domain.
4. For that comparison, Japan LITERALLY has border or territorial disputes with all its neighbors which is Russia, China, and Korea.
5. I don't think anyone wants to counter China, especially Modi. The whole Indian establishment still views it desirable to have a situation where the challenges can be managed.

 

[Donald Trump]

1. China needs to adhere to the McMahon line with India just as they have with Myanmar. There cannot be two yardsticks on this issue. What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander. They can't interpret boundaries as per their wishes.

However, the two sides formally signed the Agreement between the Government of the People's Republic of China and the Government of the Republic of India on the Establishment of a Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on India-China Border Affairs. This consultative body is comprised of diplomats and military officers from both sides, led by principals at the Director-General level of Ministries of Foreign Affairs. It is mandated to handle all matters concerning peace and stability along the China-India borders and study how to carry out exchanges and cooperation between military personnel and agencies of the two countries in border areas so as to serve as a proper channel and platform for enhancing information exchange and better collaboration and ensure for handling border affairs through the diplomatic channel in a more timely and effective manner, thereby preparing good conditions for resolving the boundary question through negotiations and promoting better relations between the two countries.

2. Where their relationship with Pakistan is concerned, it is basically one of furthering their national interests by diverting attention and keeping India forever engaged with Pakistan to secure their Southern flank and indulge in a needless arms race with Pakistan, thereby diverting precious resources from development and growth.

3. Though Sino-Indian trade is over $70 billion, there is a huge trade gap. India had a deficit of $ 28.87 billion in its trade with China. This needs to be corrected if it wants to achieve the projected trade to $500 billion by 2020-22.

However, there is the other side to the coin.

1. In recent years, as India plays an increasing salient role in the reshaping of international order, it has become one of the strategic partners China counts on. The two countries support each other in regional cooperation and made joint efforts to promote peace, stability and development in Asia.

2. The United States and some other western countries feel hard pressed by the common positions of China and India on energy security, climate change and some other global issues. The BRIC countries, G20 Summit and the East Asia Summit (EAS) have now become important venues for close interaction between leaders of the two countries in sustainable development of bilateral relations.

3. People to people cultural exchanges are playing an important part in Sino Indian relations. India is now one of major tour destinations for Chinese cultural and theatrical troupes. This has injected new vitalities into cultural exchanges between the two countries and energetically promoted non-governmental exchanges and mutual understanding between the two peoples.

In sum, as the Indian Prime Minister pointed out, “Today, both India and China are in the midst of rapid transformation. The development agenda has taken center-stage in both our societies. Our systems are different, but people in both countries are united in their aspiration for a better future. When countries of the size of China and India, together accounting for 2.5 billion people begin to unshackle their creative energies, it impacts on the whole world.”

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

That is pure speculation. You are assuming what china wants or don't want.

China is selling Naval war machines to pakistan, BD , build ports in SL, have tried to bearth their naval asset in SL, has bullied Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, South Korea and Australia.

Why they do it is irrelevant, WHAT they do is relevant.



First they did it under the US umbrella, now its Chinese umbrella
.


We used to speak to their political class even when we knew they are worthless puppets. THAT is how we extend respect to the pakistani people.



The problem is we are neither Rich nor do we have a Long stick.

All points are demonstrably incorrect.

And from now on reply in points.

1. I am not assuming anything. SEE the actions themselves. Almost all Chinese building and confrontation has been in the China Seas.
2. Selling Naval Machinery doesn't mean having an interest in a region. I don't deny that China is trying to balance India, but that is exactly because we have a bad relationship, which is again the reason why India is trying to balance China. Both countries are trying to balance each other, because of a bad relationship.
3. Also, as I said, the only thing they did remotely in IOR, is some patrols, and trying to build some infrastructure, both of which signal an interest in maintaining some presence for SLOC safety.
4. Again, the umbrella is due to Chinese interest in balancing India, which is due to a bad relationship. We are talking here about the problem which is the bad relationship.
5. This is BS. Respect can be seen. India as a country, hardly respects Pakistan, and it is tangible. We don't even consider it a country. Also, in the same spirit, similar things could have been said about the Chinese when they talked to Manmohan Singh, who as we all know wasn't actually powerful.

1. China needs to adhere to the McMahon line with India just as they have with Myanmar. There cannot be two yardsticks on this issue. What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander. They can't interpret boundaries as per their wishes.

However, the two sides formally signed the Agreement between the Government of the People's Republic of China and the Government of the Republic of India on the Establishment of a Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on India-China Border Affairs. This consultative body is comprised of diplomats and military officers from both sides, led by principals at the Director-General level of Ministries of Foreign Affairs. It is mandated to handle all matters concerning peace and stability along the China-India borders and study how to carry out exchanges and cooperation between military personnel and agencies of the two countries in border areas so as to serve as a proper channel and platform for enhancing information exchange and better collaboration and ensure for handling border affairs through the diplomatic channel in a more timely and effective manner, thereby preparing good conditions for resolving the boundary question through negotiations and promoting better relations between the two countries.

2. Where their relationship with Pakistan is concerned, it is basically one of furthering their national interests by diverting attention and keeping India forever engaged with Pakistan to secure their Southern flank and indulge in a needless arms race with Pakistan, thereby diverting precious resources from development and growth.

3. Though Sino-Indian trade is over $70 billion, there is a huge trade gap. India had a deficit of $ 28.87 billion in its trade with China. This needs to be corrected if it wants to achieve the projected trade to $500 billion by 2020-22.

However, there is the other side to the coin.

1. In recent years, as India plays an increasing salient role in the reshaping of international order, it has become one of the strategic partners China counts on. The two countries support each other in regional cooperation and made joint efforts to promote peace, stability and development in Asia.

2. The United States and some other western countries feel hard pressed by the common positions of China and India on energy security, climate change and some other global issues. The BRIC countries, G20 Summit and the East Asia Summit (EAS) have now become important venues for close interaction between leaders of the two countries in sustainable development of bilateral relations.

3. People to people cultural exchanges are playing an important part in Sino Indian relations. India is now one of major tour destinations for Chinese cultural and theatrical troupes. This has injected new vitalities into cultural exchanges between the two countries and energetically promoted non-governmental exchanges and mutual understanding between the two peoples.

In sum, as the Indian Prime Minister pointed out, “Today, both India and China are in the midst of rapid transformation. The development agenda has taken center-stage in both our societies. Our systems are different, but people in both countries are united in their aspiration for a better future. When countries of the size of China and India, together accounting for 2.5 billion people begin to unshackle their creative energies, it impacts on the whole world.”

1. You are incorrect. China has NEVER recognized the McMohan Line with any one. What they did with Myanmar was to draw a new line that was largely similar to McMohan Line.
2. China's position from the start has been that they would not recognize the McMohan Line, but still largely recognize the status quo, where each side will accept it both in the western and eastern front.
3. India has a trade deficit, because India produces nothing. Once India's manufacturing sector becomes competitive we can start talking.
4. Also, it is pedestrian to think that a country is loosing only because of a trade deficit. China runs regular trade deficits with South Korea, but still supplies from South Korea of electronics help it to fuel its own exports.
5. Similarly, India will run a deficit for the forseeable future simply because we will need Chinese supplies to add value to and then export. It is all about the positioning in the Asian supply Chain. The ones positioned higher up run a surplus, like Korea, and Taiwan do with China; and China does with Vietnam.

 

[Niyogi]

All points are demonstrably incorrect.

And from now on reply in points.

1. I am not assuming anything. SEE the actions themselves. Almost all Chinese building and confrontation has been in the China Seas.

1. 
   
   Wrong. They also have been in kashmir and all along Indian border. infra building in Tibet, Dam on Brahmaputra, and seeking a base in SL. Maybe you have selective blindness ?
   
   

   [*]Selling Naval Machinery doesn't mean having an interest in a region. I don't deny that China is trying to balance India, but that is exactly because we have a bad relationship, which is again the reason why India is trying to balance China. Both countries are trying to balance each other, because of a bad relationship.

   
   It shows their INTERFERENCE. Their "interest" is again pure speculation. Their action is what matter.
   
   Again what their reasons for acting against Indian interest is irrelevant. Only their actions matter. Your speculation on their "reason" namely "bad relationship" is irrelevant.
   
   

   [*]Also, as I said, the only thing they did remotely in IOR, is some patrols, and trying to build some infrastructure, both of which signal an interest in maintaining some presence for SLOC safety.

   
   They don't have the means to do anything in the IOR YET. They have tried changing that by seeing a base in SL, Fast and FIRM action India prevented that.
   
   Again only their actions matter.
   
   

   [*]Again, the umbrella is due to Chinese interest in balancing India, which is due to a bad relationship. We are talking here about the problem which is the bad relationship.

   
   Rubbish. Your speculation about their "reason" is just that. Your Opinion. Worthless and meaningless.
   
   

   [*]This is BS. Respect can be seen. India as a country, hardly respects Pakistan, and it is tangible. We don't even consider it a country. Also, in the same spirit, similar things could have been said about the Chinese when they talked to Manmohan Singh, who as we all know wasn't actually powerful.

More Rubbish. We consider Pakistan very much a country and a Nation. however You are free to form your own opinion.

 

[Sine Nomine]

china too supports communist guerrilas of India like maoists and naxalites and provides them arms and ammunitions jut like pakistan supports islamic terrorism in India

They never supported any insurgency in your country,Pakistan only supported Kashmirs not any other group.Look at weaponry of Indian commies they are all ww2 era

 

[HariPrasad]

One single Chinese major's words don't mean much.

No this is not the only word of Chinese general. George bush Junior (US President) had reveal this to India after his term.

In contrast, don't we, and many of our leaders wish for splitting China?

Not at all. In fact we are not as capable to dream the same.

It is factually incorrect to say that China has border disputes with all its neighbors, let me illustrate:
They have land borders with 14 countries, almost all of which have been settled.
Of the 14, they have no issues with North Korea, Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Myanmar, Laos, and Vietnam. (Only land borders, not sea territories)

The only remaining are India, and Bhutan, a state that doesn't open a Chinese embassy in its country due to Indian pressure.

Wrong . they had problem with russia in past. they have problem with Nepal, Bhutan, India. Pakistan gave gifted them a major chunk of land so there is no dispute. With India, they are bring new area under dispute such as Himachal pradesh. They have problem with Vietnam and Philippines in south china sea.
.

I don't think anyone wants to counter China, especially Modi. The whole Indian establishment still views it desirable to have a situation where the challenges can be managed.

China has worked against Indian interest particularly arming Pakistan with Nucler bombs and delivery systems. Modi is exactly responding that with arming Vietnam with Brahmos and super computers etc. A plan to make strong Vietnam is under way by by India and US.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

No this is not the only word of Chinese general. George bush Junior (US President) had reveal this to India after his term.


Not at all. In fact we are not as capable to dream the same.


Wrong . they had problem with russia in past. they have problem with Nepal, Bhutan, India. Pakistan gave gifted them a major chunk of land so there is no dispute. With India, they are bring new area under dispute such as Himachal pradesh. They have problem with Vietnam and Philippines in south china sea.
.



China has worked against Indian interest particularly arming Pakistan with Nucler bombs and delivery systems. Modi is exactly responding that with arming Vietnam with Brahmos and super computers etc. A plan to make strong Vietnam is under way by by India and US.

1. Give me your sources for Bush?
2. Common, we have such a huge tibetan population, and many people support Tibetan Independence or have sympathies for them.
3. Don't count Past Problems. Even India had troubles with all its neighbors in the past. China has no border dispute with Nepal. You are wrong.
4. And I did mention the SCS, didn't I?
5. You can have any plan, but the root of the issue is the bad relationship, where both sides are hedging against each other.

china too supports communist guerrilas of India like maoists and naxalites and provides them arms and ammunitions jut like pakistan supports islamic terrorism in India

No it doesn't. Any support would have been in the Mao era, but in modern era there is zero support.

 

[Sine Nomine]

China has worked against Indian interest particularly arming Pakistan with Nucler bombs and delivery systems.

I beg to Differ Parsad,Chinese Help Only came after 1999,that only in terms on computer systems and electronics.

Pakistan gave gifted them a major chunk of land so there is no dispute.

That was deal not a gift,what we got from china is being used,what Chinese have got,they even didn't have stepped on that Area.