Were Muslim Rajputs also honour bound to commit Saka and Jauhar when faced with overwhelming odds?

[Pakistansdefender]

I am not talking about 'allowed'. But the actual reality. We are also not allowed to murder, commit zina, take intoxicants, take bribes, indulge in greed and wanton corruption but we do all that in abandon and more. Just take the time to check out crime stats in Pakistan.

Well that's another debate .
I totally get your point . I living in Pakistan met those dick heads daily who are like 'do people drink in Pakistan or they have affairs or do anything wrong' . We Pakistanis are double standard yes and as humans we can do everything good and bad just like any human on earth .
But here I don't mean it like that .
My whole point was that in Islam when you convert you are allowed to keep your surname, and culture which doesn't go in conflict with Islam...
For example in Pakistan we are not bound by Islam to follow Arab culture . We have our own very beautiful culture and we can follow it with pride .
But in case where it condradicts with Islam,
Such as committing a suicide if there is a chance of getting raped . Then no you cannot commit a suicide . Neither are you bound to keep your honor by taking your life .
People do it but it is not allowed in Islam . A Rajput convert to Muslim can proudly carry his culture but cannot carry these stupid traditions of jauhar or things like that.as it condradicts with Islam .
Again I say I am not taking about what Muslims can and cannot do . Ofcourse they are humans they do all sorts of things . I am talking about what is allowed in Islam .

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

Those who the mostly newly converted Sikh Rajputs and a minority of which came to identify with Hindus who ruled over modern Pakistani Punjab. They were the resistance which held out under Mughal rule and periodically rose up in revolt. It was only under Sultan Aurangzeb's brilliant rule and love of life that they became Muslim, which they still hold fervently to this day.

Sultan Aurangzeb's campaign and political struggle against the Sikhs is what gave Muslims Punjab. Even today, Muslim Rajput are among the most religious and devout of Punjabis.



Basically this, Rajput is simply a title given by pre-Hindu/Hindu clergy and historians to landowning and aristocratic Iranic tribes who had settled into Punjab over centuries.

Umm..I'm highly doubtful if Aurangzeb actually cancelled the battle after hearing the Rajput horn. This is the same Aurangzeb who murdered his brothers and placed his father in prison. Please provide a link around that. I think it's just a way of Pakistani Muslims justifying their conversion as goodwill of Muslim rulers.
In fact, it was the opposite. Aurangzeb encouraged conversion of Rajputs.
http://www.historydiscussion.net/hi...lict-on-account-of-the-following-factors/2822

Even for Marathas Aurangzeb follwed the same policy. Aurangzeb tortured Sambhaji (Son of Shivaji) to death because he refused to convert to Islam. And the torture was particularly gruesome. If Sambhaji being a king had converted, you would have seen a lot of Maratha Muslims.


And not only Aurangzeb, but many invaders. You see, in the past, the religion of the king used to influence the religion of the people. The religion of village head used to the influence the religion of the village people. Invaders made it a policy of converting Hindu/Buddhist kings to Islam. Once you convert a king, it's easy to convert the subjects. And once subjects belong to the same religion, it's easier to control them. Once a king converts, he also encourages his subjects to convert. This was often done by coercion. The coercion could be monetary or violent. If you convert, you will be given this jagir, etc. If you don't convert, your family will be killed, etc. I'm not saying there were only forced conversions though but I'm saying that force was used as well.

Islam being a proselytizing faith always had the upper hand with its fix set of codes and doctrines unlike the Hindu faith where there are no doctrines as such. The person who used to convert just had his Gods replaced with One God. He also had the reward of getting Jannat. Whereas, in Hinduism he had to go through the pain of many births to attain 'moksha' - self realization. (Not saying this resembles Hindu faith but having multiple births is one of the theories of Hindu faith. There are many Hindus who don't believe in past life). Buddhism was even less rewarding with no God to lean on.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Muslim Rajputs converted to Islam originally due to these brilliant political strategies of Aurangzeb, like nullifying the need for mass suicide and having empathy for the people of the region. He was one of the greatest rulers to come to the region. He is (along with other Muslim rulers) revered by all Muslim Rajputs, hence why we keep names like Aurangzeb, Babur, Qasim, Tipu, Haider Ali, etc.

Come out of your brainwashing.

Rajputs of Punjab were mostly Sikhs by the time Mughals Islamized them. Throughout most of Mughal rule, Rajputs and similar groups were Non-Muslims, but still queens, ministers, nobles and landowners, so that speaks of the great tolerance and cosmopolitan nature of Islamic Mughal culture. It was only until the end of Mughal rule that Islamization took place under Sultan Aurangzeb Alamgir RA (may Allah have mercy on him,) and it was the best thing to happen to us.

 

[Hamza913]

A Rajput may not possess much in this world but then again does he need anything other than his lineage,his ancestry and his honour? An honour ,which has been carefully concocted in the crucible of the desert for over a thousand years. Colonial British writers had a much more innocent fascination regarding the Rajputs(and also the Pashtuns), before they repurposed their fascination for Rajput ethnography into making the philosophy of the martial races...anyways there gas been Muslim Rajput dynasties too...prime being the Soomras of Sindh ....Rajput men were honour bound to go out ritualistically and make a heroic last stand outsude the fort (Saka) in face of inevitable defeat while Rajput women were honour bound to commit Jauhar simultaneously within the fortress...It seems here lies the genesis of Rajput identity ....A code of honour no lesser than the seppuku committing Samurais of the Great Yamato Race....The Jauhar Step well would be the heart of any Rajput fortress construction .....

It seems the Rajput was more worried that loss of honour would pollute the bloodline rather than the typical Anglo-Saxon preoccupation that miscegnation would pollute the bloodline ...The first Anglo-Saxon ethnographers encountering the Rajputs must have been stupifued at this much different self-conception of identity

How did Muslim Rajput react when the tide inevitably turned against their favour with the onslaught of lightly Islamicized Mongol dynasties like the Arghun?

They never committed ritual suicide since that's haram. They just kept on fighting until they lost, and then they'd often be rewarded for their valour by attaining high positions within the new empire.

We are mostly Iranic nomads of Saka, Hepthalite, and previous Iranic migrant origin.

Whilst that may be true for many Rajputs, it has been diluted over time.

After a long time researching this specific topic. I have concluded that Rajput was never an actual 'biradari' (tribe), nor were they ever an ethno-cultural body.

It was a title earned by tribes that gained control over large regions, and later became an identity of it's own.

In the same sense that titles such as Raja, Khan, Malik, Shaikh, Jam, etc... given to specific families became identities/tribes of their own.

A "Rajput" from Potohar (in Northern Punjab) has absolutely no links, whether culturally, genetically, linguistically, historically, etc... to lets say... a Rajput from Rajasthan.

Moreover, there is no historical evidence to suggest any of the tribes that are now claimed to be Rajput such as the Soomras, Sammas, Gakhars, etc... identified themselves as such until recently.


That is common in all tribes of Pakistan...

I 2nd this.

North Indians aka modern day Pakistanis faced invasions similar to that of what the Yazidis faced when ISIS attacked them, those with a brain and a bit of history know what I'm talking about.

Not really. ISIS never assimilated into Yazidi culture, nor did large numbers of Yazidis join them.

 

[Agnihotra]

Short answer...NO! Islam trumps all beliefs & for a Muslim, being rajput (or anything else for that matter) is merely a family identity, nothing more. My wife's family, by lineage, are brahmin, something I did not know until 5 years after marriage...while I am direct syed descendant, being Muslims, the lineage meant absolutely nothing, ZILCH, during marriage so much so that they didn't even bother mentioning that they are some sort of an upper brahmin caste, that's how irrelevant lineage is for Muslims.

There's no such thing as Muslim brahmin or Brahmin lineage.

We are a tiny minority and ethno-religious community, that didn't even convert to other dharmic religions such as Jainism forget about Islam.

Your wife's family is making up their claims and lying to you.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

There's no such thing as Muslim brahmin or Brahmin lineage.

We are a tiny minority and ethno-religious community, that didn't even convert to other dharmic religions such as Jainism forget about Islam.

Your wife's family is making up their claims and lying to you.

That is funny you say that ... Ever heard of a poet Iqbal? The guy with the vision? Mastermind of Pakistan itself? Shed some light on his family's(previous generation) conversion to Islam from brahmanism...

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

We are mostly Iranic nomads of Saka, Hepthalite, and previous Iranic migrant origin.

You are a Rajput?

Short answer...NO! Islam trumps all beliefs & for a Muslim, being rajput (or anything else for that matter) is merely a family identity, nothing more. My wife's family, by lineage, are brahmin, something I did not know until 5 years after marriage...while I am direct syed descendant, being Muslims, the lineage meant absolutely nothing, ZILCH, during marriage so much so that they didn't even bother mentioning that they are some sort of an upper brahmin caste, that's how irrelevant lineage is for Muslims.

Your wife is Indian?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

You are a Rajput?

Yes, I am, brother.

That is funny you say that ... Ever heard of a poet Iqbal? The guy with the vision? Mastermind of Pakistan itself? Shed some light on his family's(previous generation) conversion to Islam from brahmanism...

Exactly he was very proud of his Kashmiri Brahmin heritage. It is the same way how Muslim Rajputs are proud of their heritage.

After Islam, we used this passion in the service of our faith and our people.

Pakistan first embraced Islam due to the conversions of Buddhist monks in the region, who paved the way for complete conversion of the population.

 

[Agnihotra]

That is funny you say that ... Ever heard of a poet Iqbal? The guy with the vision? Mastermind of Pakistan itself? Shed some light on his family's(previous generation) conversion to Islam from brahmanism...

Dude i have mate many such people who claimed that they were brahmins but looked nothing like how a Brahmin looks. A

i said before we are very tiny minority, 1% of total south Asian population with Ethno-religious history and community that we are extremely proud of so these stories are false and almost comical to us.

According to British historians most of Kashmiri Muslims such as allama Iqbal Lahori adopted brahmin surnames during Dogra rule as brahmins were favoured in Kashmir by Dogra Rajput kings for the administration.

I don't like it when famous person like Allama Iqbal Lahori fatisized us as of we are like some kind of different species.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Dude i have mate many such people who claimed that they were brahmins but looked nothing like how a Brahmin looks. A

i said before we are very tiny minority, 1% of total south Asian population with Ethno-religious history and community that we are extremely proud of so these stories are false and almost comical to us.

According to British historians most of Kashmiri Muslims such as allama Iqbal Lahori adopted brahmin surnames during Dogra rule as brahmins were favoured in Kashmir by Dogra Rajput kings for the administration.

I don't like it when famous person like Allama Iqbal Lahori fatisized us as of we are like some kind of different species.

Read it through... besides he didn't fetishize brahmanism... he was through and through Muslim... but his family converted just a generation earlier... so, no prehistoric links here.

 

[GumNaam]

You are a Rajput?


Your wife is Indian?

No she's Pakistani. But her great grand father was a brahmin pundit who converted to Islam.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Read it through... besides he didn't fetishize brahmanism... he was through and through Muslim... but his family converted just a generation earlier... so prehistoric links here.

These RSS believe if you convert to Islam that you lose your DNA.

I am Rajput, through and through, but even these RSS will find some way to deny it on the basis that I am Muslim.

Blood and religion are two different things. They simply do not understand. They think taking a dip in Ganges changes you to Brahmin or Kshatriya.

Most of Pakistani population are light-skinned Aryans/Iranics, and many have surnames, lineages, and origins to prove it.

We are sons of the soil. Our ancestors have been here since IVC and the periodic Iranic migrations from Central Asia.

Allama Iqbal's ancestor Sahaj Ram Sapru converted to Islam from Shiva Brahminism. Most Kashmiri Muslims are descended from Hindu Brahmins as well.

 

[Agnihotra]

Yes, I am, brother.



Exactly he was very proud of his Kashmiri Brahmin heritage. It is the same way how Muslim Rajputs are proud of their heritage.

After Islam, we used this passion in the service of our faith and our people.

Pakistan first embraced Islam due to the conversions of Buddhist monks in the region, who paved the way for complete conversion of the population.

According to you, your ancestors were Buddhist rajputs ? Are you sindhi by chance ?

There is no such thing as brahmin heritage, brahmin is someone who reads Vedic Scriptures, prays to god, undergoes sacred thread ceremony and eats and behaves in good way.

Also he is from one of seven priestly clan from both sides of his family and can trace his lineage back to centuries.

I am a Brahmin whos ancestors came from North India to Rajputana as royal priest to local very famous king and his Rajput clan, in return they got some villages to rule. From that person i can go back till 12th century with family book that i have in my possession.

I know what he and.my.other ancestors used to preach, teach and do before they became royal priests, my paternal clan, maternal clan etc.

We have to love certain way, take bath twice a day, do pooja path, talk with respect to others etc are sign of well born brahmin.

If a person leaves this complex system he or she will become a non brahmin or ordinary person.

Read it through... besides he didn't fetishize brahmanism... he was through and through Muslim... but his family converted just a generation earlier... so, no prehistoric links here.

No one knows when his family converted, most of the Kashmiri Muslims are Kharva or Fisherman anyways.

I know that he was a hardcore Muslim, i meant that he fetishized brahmins not Brahminism.

Brahminism is Hinduism or Vedic religion, religion, customs and cultures that we follow.

Brahminical is Vedic civilization that we propagated alongside Kshatriyas and Vaishyas.

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

According to you, your ancestors were Buddhist rajputs ? Are you sindhi by chance ?

There is no such thing as brahmin heritage, brahmin is someone who reads Vedic Scriptures, prays to god, undergoes sacred thread ceremony and eats and behaves in good way.

Also he is from one of seven priestly clan from both sides of his family and can trace his lineage back to centuries.

I am a Brahmin whos ancestors came from North India to Rajputana as royal priest to local very famous king and his Rajput clan, in return they got some villages to rule. From that person i can go back till 12th century with family book that i have in my possession.

I know what he and.my.other ancestors used to preach, teach and do before they became royal priests, my paternal clan, maternal clan etc.

We have to love certain way, take bath twice a day, do pooja path, talk with respect to others etc are sign of well born brahmin.

If a person leaves this complex system he or she will become a non brahmin or ordinary person.



No one knows when his family converted, most of the Kashmiri Muslims are Kharva or Fisherman anyways.

I know that he was a hardcore Muslim, i meant that he fetishized brahmins not Brahminism.

Brahminism is Hinduism or Vedic religion, religion, customs and cultures that we follow.

Brahminical is Vedic civilization that we propagated alongside Kshatriyas and Vaishyas.

You don't become a Brahmin by just being born as a Brahmin. I personally don't believe in caste system and I'm strongly against Brahmanism where people consider they are superior just because they are born in a certain caste.
I would also like to tell that caste system is not restricted to just Hinduism. There are people from Abrahimic religions who consider people of their religion as superior and consider people of other religions as less worthy. That is also a form of caste system and I'm strongly against that as well.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

These RSS believe if you convert to Islam that you lose your DNA.

I am Rajput, through and through, but even these RSS will find some way to deny it on the basis that I am Muslim.

Blood and religion are two different things. They simply do not understand. They think taking a dip in Ganges changes you to Brahmin or Kshatriya.

Most of Pakistani population are light-skinned Aryans/Iranics, and many have surnames, lineages, and origins to prove it.

We are sons of the soil. Our ancestors have been here since IVC and the periodic Iranic migrations from Central Asia.

Allama Iqbal's ancestor Sahaj Ram Sapru converted to Islam from Shiva Brahminism. Most Kashmiri Muslims are descended from Hindu Brahmins as well.

This has a deeper cut ... in their psyche, Hinduism is a realm... and dharma is construct which encompasses most areas of life ... it also has hindutva nativist mythology intertwined as well ... and a hindu wish to bring everything and everyone back under dharma and convert or kill all those who left hinduism.

In my understanding(assumptions) Kshatriya were perhaps the original hindus... the ones who brought their vicarious religious beliefs to south asia... with their shamans and all
... these intertwined with native belief systems and created the dharmic construct which coopted everything under its umbrella and ofcourse after centuries and countless changes and iterations we have this modern iteration of hinduism... whereas Kshatriya remained free of their shamans ... natives got owned.