Welcome Home, Pervez Musharraf The Great Leader Of Pakistan

[RazPaK]

Im far from hurt, I find it funny.
So how I pander to Indian propagandists?
What is Indian propaganda?

It's good that you find it funny.

You jump on the Pakistani liberal Nadeem Paracha bandwagon to bash the efforts of General Musharraf for a pat on the back by Indians.

I have no clue what your policy is towards Indian deep state or the nation as a whole, but you tend to neurotically bash Pakistani leaders. I have an inclination to believe that perhaps your loyalty lies to another nation, but then I think about it further.

And the case seems to be that maybe you're just another average Pakistani that hates his fellow countrymen for being successful.

It's easy to be critical and idealistic akin to the likes of Hasan Nisar to gain popularity, but is that attitude viable for formulating a solution?

You discussed Musharraf earlier on the thread and your strongest argument was hypothetical. Maybe things didn't have to go this way IF?. IF..IF

Really?


Musharraf may obviously not be the best leader, but then who do you have to pick out of?

The idealism you hold is childish because at the end of the day you have to play your hand with what you have.

In regards to Kargil, you choose to side with the Indian version of so-called 'facts', and now justify it further by some crack-pot officers in the PA trying to make their 15 minutes of fame.

If you really choose to believe that, then that's on you. 95% of Pakistan, including myself wholeheartedly disagrees with you.

 

[MilSpec]

It's good that you find it funny.

You jump on the Pakistani liberal Nadeem Paracha bandwagon to bash the efforts of General Musharraf for a pat on the back by Indians.

I have no clue what your policy is towards Indian deep state or the nation as a whole, but you tend to neurotically bash Pakistani leaders. I have an inclination to believe that perhaps your loyalty lies to another nation, but then I think about it further.

And the case seems to be that maybe you're just another average Pakistani that hates his fellow countrymen for being successful.

It's easy to be critical and idealistic akin to the likes of Hasan Nisar to gain popularity, but is that attitude viable for formulating a solution?

You discussed Musharraf earlier on the thread and your strongest argument was hypothetical. Maybe things didn't have to go this way IF?. IF..IF

Really?


Musharraf may obviously not be the best leader, but then who do you have to pick out of?

The idealism you hold is childish because at the end of the day you have to play your hand with what you have.

In regards to Kargil, you choose to side with the Indian version of so-called 'facts', and now justify it further by some crack-pot officers in the PA trying to make their 15 minutes of fame.

If you really choose to believe that, then that's on you. 95% of Pakistan, including myself wholeheartedly disagrees with you.

To analyse any problem one needs to distance himself from emotions and work with the facts. In your case every sentence you have posted on this website is either against a certain nationality, race, community political party or an individual with a different viewpoint from yours.

I have hard time understanding what exactly is obtained from declaring some one "pro- indian/jew/hindu/liberal/" on a website, what good does it do to the intellectual discourse . Instead if you do have a counter narrative try presenting it within the realms of logic and common sense instead of throwing accusations.

As far as kargil issue remains, i haven't seen one analytical post of your's in last couple of years on this forum, Al i hear is internet-threats, verbal diatribe and hate speech, you can offcourse hold your opinion different from that of @Oscar and present it, but it seems a little childish for attacking his credentials and declaring him pro-indian just because you lack the articulation and insight to present a counter narrative.

 

[BATMAN]

This sums to the argument that Musharraf is the lesser of evils. Yet, the gauge being used for him( replacing him with Benzair or Nawaz in his role) means that the product of 67 years of military leadership development is only so much better than equivalent of leadership produced within 11 years of actual democracy?

What evil exactly, do you attribute to Musharraf?
Actually.. it is PTI which is using Nawaz Sharif as guage.. and i have challenged many times if for once IK claim that he will deliver half of prosperity and industry what Musharaf deliver, i will become PTI member.
Fact remains Musharraf's turn around was no less than miracle... it was a time when we were not earning so much forex from the overseas Pakistanis and fuel was 200$/barrel.
It was Musharraf who tried to find diplomatic solution of every political issue.
It was Musharraf who appeared on QA sessions on daily basis, not IK, Sharif or Zardari!

That being able to take unitary decision that lead to the death of over 50000 Pakistanis(lets forget the Kargil fiasco in this calculation) in the long term and massive losses in wealth and security is acceptable when compared to a bunch of thugs who end up making similar mistakes.. and who have been brought back in BY this very man who COULD have prevented this from happening; he is still the better man makes it sound like a Catch-22 equation.

So he took a decision and he stand by it.. and we stand by it.
What is there to be catch 22?

So the only reason his critique is then equivalent to blasphemy is because he seems to be the best we have out of the lot???

i.e to support Musharraf is to support his decisions to bring back the very people we are glad to be rid off in the first place. So either we assume that he has reformed(hasnt worked out so well in the case of Nawaz or Zardari or any of these politicians), or we assume that apart from the addiction of power, the man has little other reason..and our gauge of him must be his past performance.
In that case, we can assume that while he may be able to wring in the technocrats and come up with a quick temporary fix for our economy; his approach on policies such as the WoT and Balochistan may lead to further fragmentation in the country,

If you are reffering to NRO, Sharif and Zardari.. than no need to keep debating on same thing.
Our logic says NRO expired the day Musharraf left.. and judiciary had many accounts to disqualify Zaradari.
Fake degree, fake medical certifacte and expiry of NRO etc.

The only alternative choice is then IK, who is the untried factor and rather inexperienced in the intricacies of the corridors of power.
An ideal solution would have been a APML and PTI alliance, but IK refers to Musharraf in no sugary terms.. and being seen with a former dictator is scandalous.

This is selfish approach.. which will lead to a hung parliament... but in any case you fail to explain, why IK did not took part in last elections and why his focus is on Musharraf rather than Pakistan and its regime?

 

[RazPaK]

To analyse any problem one needs to distance himself from emotions and work with the facts. In your case every sentence you have posted on this website is either against a certain nationality, race, community political party or an individual with a different viewpoint from yours.

I have hard time understanding what exactly is obtained from declaring some one "pro- indian/jew/hindu/liberal/" on a website, what good does it do to the intellectual discourse, despite the truth in your claim. Instead if you do have a counter narrative try presenting it within the realms of logic and common sense instead of throwing accusations.

As far as kargil issue remains, i haven't seen one analytical post of your in last couple of years on this forum, Al i hear is internet-threats, verbal diatribe and hate speech, you can offcourse hold your opinion different from the @Oscar and present it, but it seems a little childish for attacking his credentials and declaring him pro-indian just because you lack the articulation and insight to present a counter narrative.

Dear Sandy,

Stop trying to be Oscar's girlfriend.

Sincerely,
Razpak

 

[MilSpec]

Dear Sandy,

Stop trying to be Oscar's girlfriend.

Sincerely,
Razpak

Exactly as i mentioned... no content... no intelligence... just pure BS coated with BS with BS filling

 

[RazPaK]

Exactly as i mentioned... no content... no intelligence... just pure BS coated with BS with BS filling

Okay, but nobody is even talking to you.

 

[batmannow]

To analyse any problem one needs to distance himself from emotions and work with the facts. In your case every sentence you have posted on this website is either against a certain nationality, race, community political party or an individual with a different viewpoint from yours.

I have hard time understanding what exactly is obtained from declaring some one "pro- indian/jew/hindu/liberal/" on a website, what good does it do to the intellectual discourse . Instead if you do have a counter narrative try presenting it within the realms of logic and common sense instead of throwing accusations.

As far as kargil issue remains, i haven't seen one analytical post of your's in last couple of years on this forum, Al i hear is internet-threats, verbal diatribe and hate speech, you can offcourse hold your opinion different from that of @Oscar and present it, but it seems a little childish for attacking his credentials and declaring him pro-indian just because you lack the articulation and insight to present a counter narrative.

As u urself trying to runaway from the topic,& trying to shot kargill as ur counter argument with emotions?
I hve news for u,try my name batmannow & check the history of threads & indians getting out of their dam minds?lol
Also check how many times,our dear MOD been virtully bieng made speachless?lol
I can understannd ur hidden hate & zeal to punish musharaf in anyway bt, again u r nt lucky to be a pakistani?lol
So bye bye, yes ur oppinions aren't needed nor wellcomed on this thread?lol
Now stay on topic or be reported to kickedout?lol

 

[SQ8]

It's good that you find it funny.

You jump on the Pakistani liberal Nadeem Paracha bandwagon to bash the efforts of General Musharraf for a pat on the back by Indians.

I have no clue what your policy is towards Indian deep state or the nation as a whole, but you tend to neurotically bash Pakistani leaders. I have an inclination to believe that perhaps your loyalty lies to another nation, but then I think about it further.

And the case seems to be that maybe you're just another average Pakistani that hates his fellow countrymen for being successful.

It's easy to be critical and idealistic akin to the likes of Hasan Nisar to gain popularity, but is that attitude viable for formulating a solution?

You discussed Musharraf earlier on the thread and your strongest argument was hypothetical. Maybe things didn't have to go this way IF?. IF..IF

Really?


Musharraf may obviously not be the best leader, but then who do you have to pick out of?

The idealism you hold is childish because at the end of the day you have to play your hand with what you have.

In regards to Kargil, you choose to side with the Indian version of so-called 'facts', and now justify it further by some crack-pot officers in the PA trying to make their 15 minutes of fame.

If you really choose to believe that, then that's on you. 95% of Pakistan, including myself wholeheartedly disagrees with you.

Each of these things are what is spoon fed to the 95% percent.
Let me give you a heads-up. 95% do not believe Kargil was a success, 95% do not believe Musharraf's decisions were wise. some 350 people in the welcoming party do not comprise 95% of Pakistan.

If you want to be the 95% who will go down saying "that's all the choices we had". Then so be it.
Problem is, your vision is so narrow . That its spectrumed only in black and white. You(like your superhero wannabe friends), seem to support the hypothesis that we Pakistanis are capable of NO sin. No transgression. No faults.
It is exactly this mentality that reflects in many Indians you hate. They too bear the problem that India can do no harm, India is innocent, India is perfect.
So by being mirror image of them, what do you intend to achieve? By lying to yourself , what do you expect to gain?
By closing your eye to rapes, deaths and terrorism.. what do you achieve in the doctrine of "The best we have"?
Please explain it to me?
Who the hell is Nadeem Paracha? Nothing more than a cynical outcast. Yet to you he burns up because here is a Pakistani who is repeatedly anti-Pakistani.. I dont agree with his cynical assessments all the time because that's all he has but at least I know where to admit the places he has hit correct(even if commentators like him and Nisar have parroted those lines before).
I know where to say Yes MM Alam was a great ace but he did not shoot down the 5 in a row as claimed..
Do have the courage to do that? Can you fathom the reality that shatters around you when you join organizations that make equipment for our soldiers.. and you take pride in your work.. only to find out that the people whom you held as shining examples...are knee deep in corruption... that your very nuclear program.. the blood and sweat of many(and sometimes our only defense against cynics and enemies alike) is filled with corrupt practices from these "valued" individuals.
Yes, I can be like you.. think naysay of those that tell me such blasphemies of these "great leaders".. but one, two.. ten!.. and you find no choice but to accept that possibility that we as a nation are corrupt and *****-ridden to the core now.

I dont have any need to gain your approval or even clarify who I am. My position here on this forum that @BATMAN here spares no chance of critiquing means nothing.. He's not done anything worthwhile here even though he has been here longer than I have, perhaps maybe that's why he values it.
But what bother's me is my countrymen( for all my differences with them), are still butting their heads and blindly believing in "saviors" while ignoring that the definition is theirs for the taking. If that means constantly reprimanding them when they believe in lies..so be it.
I wont stop my critique of Musharraf or IK or any of these "saviors".. Even though I may vote for one as I believe in the democratic system because that is where my praise for their achievements matters and not here. I have @batmannow here to sing his praises, @Leader for Imran Khan, @Tameem for Mian sb and so on. I will continue to point out their faults so that there are no blind believers left and only sieved choices. (watch the much "Indianized" Hamid Mir for what he is doing in every program by bringing out feudal electable and questioning them on live TV).

As for your opinions and views, you want to vent them on me.. please go ahead.. take a number.
Because you have EXACT mirror images from the very Indian's you refer to consciously and subconsciously...
watch them react the very same way to any Indian that questions their views on Modi.. or see them tear apart an Article by Arundhati Roy.. You are the opposite side of that coin. Nothing more, Nothing less.

As u urself trying to runaway from the topic,& trying to shot kargill as ur counter argument with emotions?
I hve news for u,try my name batmannow & check the history of threads & indians getting out of their dam minds?lol
Also check how many times,our dear MOD been virtully bieng made speachless?lol
I can understannd ur hidden hate & zeal to punish musharaf in anyway bt, again u r nt lucky to be a pakistani?lol
So bye bye, yes ur oppinions aren't needed nor wellcomed on this thread?lol
Now stay on topic or be reported to kickedout?lol

It's speechless, and the dear mod actually leaves PDF for a while to do things.. like study, eat, go out with friends.. etc
Perhaps you should try that and not take things soo seriously. After all.. "Why so serious?".

 

[SQ8]

What evil exactly, do you attribute to Musharraf?
Actually.. it is PTI which is using Nawaz Sharif as guage.. and i have challenged many times if for once IK claim that he will deliver half of prosperity and industry what Musharaf deliver, i will become PTI member.
Fact remains Musharraf's turn around was no less than miracle... it was a time when we were not earning so much forex from the overseas Pakistanis and fuel was 200$/barrel.
It was Musharraf who tried to find diplomatic solution of every political issue.
It was Musharraf who appeared on QA sessions on daily basis, not IK, Sharif or Zardari!


So he took a decision and he stand by it.. and we stand by it.
What is there to be catch 22?

If you are reffering to NRO, Sharif and Zardari.. than no need to keep debating on same thing.
Our logic says NRO expired the day Musharraf left.. and judiciary had many accounts to disqualify Zaradari.
Fake degree, fake medical certifacte and expiry of NRO etc.



This is selfish approach.. which will lead to a hung parliament... but in any case you fail to explain, why IK did not took part in last elections and why his focus is on Musharraf rather than Pakistan and its regime?

I absolutely agree with you on IK, he has little to show for himself too. I cant defend him because I dont support him since his message is never clear.. nor are any of his speeches. However, he is still the unknown.
Ive been to the question and answer session with the president sessions on PTV as well, where you hand a question asking the president a question on why "bounties" were taken on our citizens.. or why was the NRO pulled in even though it violates everything he stepped in for.. or why did he allow Shaukat Aziz(a relative of mine) to manipulate the market and get away with millions?
Those pieces of papers were taken and nothing came of them. Only questions that showed him in a good light were done.

Come to all his interviews, Bravo to him for going all Gruff against the Indian interviewer.. but the fact is.. that he was lying..
Forget my sources, connections or whatever tiny fortunes of sociability Ive had..
Now his own are coming in public to reveal his blunders..
If a person is lying on live television, then how can I expect any better of him than I expect of men like Nawaz or Zardari?
I have no idea what to expect of IK other than his apparent ineptitude in handling political affairs and his complete lack of a vision statement which he insists he will give "right before elections".
But at the same time, I do not support Musharraf because he is already a known devil to me and has already had his eight years in relative prosperity as compared to the Nawaz and PPP governments.. had he actually done something other than a consumerist economy and (laudable) media freedom...then the worst Zardari and his thieves could have done would not have left us this empty.

 

[Rahil khan]

In regards to Kargil, you choose to side with the Indian version of so-called 'facts', and now justify it further by some crack-pot officers in the PA trying to make their 15 minutes of fame.

If you really choose to believe that, then that's on you. 95% of Pakistan, including myself wholeheartedly disagrees with you.

Sir, Can you tell me how many books on Kargill issue has been written and published in India??? More than 100. And can you tell me how many books on Kargill issue has been written and published "By the Civilians" , or the neutral observers in Pakistan?? Not more than 2 or 3?? What choice do i have if there is always "keeping the Tax payers in the dark" policy continues to dominate???

 

[batmannow]

Each of these things are what is spoon fed to the 95% percent.
Let me give you a heads-up. 95% do not believe Kargil was a success, 95% do not believe Musharraf's decisions were wise. some 350 people in the welcoming party do not comprise 95% of Pakistan.

If you want to be the 95% who will go down saying "that's all the choices we had". Then so be it.
Problem is, your vision is so narrow . That its spectrumed only in black and white. You(like your superhero wannabe friends), seem to support the hypothesis that we Pakistanis are capable of NO sin. No transgression. No faults.
It is exactly this mentality that reflects in many Indians you hate. They too bear the problem that India can do no harm, India is innocent, India is perfect.
So by being mirror image of them, what do you intend to achieve? By lying to yourself , what do you expect to gain?
By closing your eye to rapes, deaths and terrorism.. what do you achieve in the doctrine of "The best we have"?
Please explain it to me?
Who the hell is Nadeem Paracha? Nothing more than a cynical outcast. Yet to you he burns up because here is a Pakistani who is repeatedly anti-Pakistani.. I dont agree with his cynical assessments all the time because that's all he has but at least I know where to admit the places he has hit correct(even if commentators like him and Nisar have parroted those lines before).
I know where to say Yes MM Alam was a great ace but he did not shoot down the 5 in a row as claimed..
Do have the courage to do that? Can you fathom the reality that shatters around you when you join organizations that make equipment for our soldiers.. and you take pride in your work.. only to find out that the people whom you held as shining examples...are knee deep in corruption... that your very nuclear program.. the blood and sweat of many(and sometimes our only defense against cynics and enemies alike) is filled with corrupt practices from these "valued" individuals.
Yes, I can be like you.. think naysay of those that tell me such blasphemies of these "great leaders".. but one, two.. ten!.. and you find no choice but to accept that possibility that we as a nation are corrupt and *****-ridden to the core now.

I dont have any need to gain your approval or even clarify who I am. My position here on this forum that @BATMAN here spares no chance of critiquing means nothing.. He's not done anything worthwhile here even though he has been here longer than I have, perhaps maybe that's why he values it.
But what bother's me is my countrymen( for all my differences with them), are still butting their heads and blindly believing in "saviors" while ignoring that the definition is theirs for the taking. If that means constantly reprimanding them when they believe in lies..so be it.
I wont stop my critique of Musharraf or IK or any of these "saviors".. Even though I may vote for one as I believe in the democratic system because that is where my praise for their achievements matters and not here. I have @batmannow here to sing his praises, @Leader for Imran Khan, @Tameem for Mian sb and so on. I will continue to point out their faults so that there are no blind believers left and only sieved choices. (watch the much "Indianized" Hamid Mir for what he is doing in every program by bringing out feudal electable and questioning them on live TV).

As for your opinions and views, you want to vent them on me.. please go ahead.. take a number.
Because you have EXACT mirror images from the very Indian's you refer to consciously and subconsciously...
watch them react the very same way to any Indian that questions their views on Modi.. or see them tear apart an Article by Arundhati Roy.. You are the opposite side of that coin. Nothing more, Nothing less.



It's speechless, and the dear mod actually leaves PDF for a while to do things.. like study, eat, go out with friends.. etc
Perhaps you should try that and not take things soo seriously. After all.. "Why so serious?".

U tried & tried again & again failed & failed?lol
Its nt me, its u my over educated friend, plz stop of bieng teaching others?lol
Its always u,over educated, over smart,& over democratic?
Jst think about it, whts been wrong with you?lol
Any way hve a good luck & u really deserve a mullha FM, who can teach you his version of democrcy day & night?
Come back to topic aganist mushraf & watch me making you speach less, with ur over education?lol
Don't take it serious, cause if took, u will found ur spechless bhaiyaa?lol
You couldbe a vast & faster thinker thn Iqbal, bt you were never was a soilder & never will, so you lack patriotism & its the weakness u can't ,change?
Wear pakarmy uniform, go to a battle zone, take bullet hopefully ur, inside ghandhi jee will die?lol

Sir, Can you tell me how many books on Kargill issue has been written and published in India??? More than 100. And can you tell me how many books on Kargill issue has been written and published "By the Civilians" , or the neutral observers in Pakistan?? Not more than 2 or 3?? What choice do i have if there is always "keeping the Tax payers in the dark" policy continues to dominate???

Do u know how many real tax payers in pakistan?lol

 

[Rahil khan]

Do u know how many real tax payers in pakistan?lol

Its not funny sir. Same type of attitude has cost us East Pakistan.

 

[Developereo]

Musharraf made the right call by going along with the Americans. [...] He made the wrong call in simultaneously helping the extremists in order to preserve Pakistan's position in a post-US Afghani hierarchy.

I have to disagree.

Unlike most people, Musharraf had the political maturity and insight to see that the WoT was only part of the American agenda and that the wider regional calculus of installing India as the local chaudhry was part of the picture. He also knew that, in the new American strategy, Pakistan was on the wrong side of their equation.

Musharraf did exactly the right thing in thwarting American designs to install a pro-Indian puppet in Afghanistan. The Mayor of Kabul is just that -- thanks to Musharraf's counter-strategy. In a rare moment of lucidity, Pakistan planned its strategy ten moves ahead of the Americans. Where Musharraf went wrong was in not paying attention to the extremist cauldron within Pakistan itself, but that is a separate subject from the Afghan war itself.

 

[JonAsad]

Musharraf should be the new President- -

 

[nForce]

What is great about him?
Lost a war..got a lot of Pakistani boys killed..managed to get his country humiliated both militarily and politically,in national as well as international level..then went on to take down democracy of the country..let some foreign power arm twist him to let them use the country's land for purposes not exactly beneficial to the people of the land..created a political turmoil..not to mention,destroyed the country's economy in the process,which now runs on alms money from World Bank or US..and finally,when all of it became too hot to handle,he escaped to some foreign country for asylum..tell me what is great about him??

He is the epitome of failure instead.And some people in Pakistan still think he should be the one to lead their country.If this is how the Pakistanis define their leaders then,well,God help Pakistan.......