We never had a single failure in 1,500 flights of Tejas: ADE

[conworldus]

Well, if this is indeed true the way your designers and engineers put it I must say for a newly industrializing country it is quite an achievement. Most of the British, French and American aeronautics involving in complex jet technology traced its roots to Nazi Germany's bureaus.

The coming decades seem to be for China and India together. Congratulations to all Indian members on this achievement.

The core of building a jet is system engineering - putting the components to work. China was under great difficulty because of the embargo. We didn't have the components readily available for integration like India had. However, the embargo also motivated our engineers to work hard to develop our own modules. With the WS series engine entering service, we can finally produce 100% indigenous jets.

 

[shrivatsa]

please point towards components that we readily integrated.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I am surprised you know this abbreviation, which was a set of India-specific upgrades, executed by Indian agencies integrating some western products and also doing some very good re-writes of the software. Yes, DARIN covered the items noted above earlier; I am not too sure about the scope of DARIN and DARIN II. Before my time a bit. I knew the IAF officer coordinating the effort, since while he was in HAL, he was my contact person in that organisation for simulators. But we never got around to talking about DARIN, and it never came up officially, unlike a lot of the other things we discussed.

These were, by all accounts, very useful upgrades, and lengthened the life of the aircraft considerably. If you want to know more, I have to talk to the old-timers at Bangalore, whenever I go back there (typically every 45 days); do let me know if you are curious. I'll also find out if anybody worked on the Kiran and is still around. Well, obviously dozens are, but I need someone who had a 35,000 feet in the air view of the project.

Could I get back to you on these two?

Would appreciate that greatly.
About DARIN, read an account by a (now retd) IAF Air Cdre. (a Bong). who had to put the ASQR together, which in turn was intended to replace/supplement the stuff that was on offer by the Brits (was it BAE?) which was deficient in its capabilities and the French which was expensive and not offered in its entirety. The IAF team; thinking out of the box all the time, came up with the package which incorporated elements of both along-side some Indian gizmos especially the integration bit which was (atleast) a bit tricky. But the results dazzled all concerned (including, i believe old-man Marcel Dassault himself). All said and done, that project really put the DP into the DPSA. And is one of the reasons why the Jaguar still can still pack a punch.
Ahem, some times good old Indian jugaad can work well.

The officer (A/Cdre. or was he a Group Capt. then?) in question was part of AHQ, not HAL; though staff from HAL were part of the team.

i asked about the HJT-16, only to understand whether Dr. Ghatge and his team conceptualised it from the ground up. Though cosmetically, it (seemingly) shares some features with the Jet Provost.
You're likely to know more about it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir,
Can you please explain comparing and contrasting our effort with an another successful effort? When our Airforce chief says that we only have Mig21++ and Airforce deserves more after waiting for such a long time, how we should take it?

Thanks

Well, actually, he's exactly right, but considering that we had set out to make a light, easy to make, Model T kind of jet plane, but still wanted fly-by-wire and composites, a kind of low-key plane type that the IAF has always liked compared to the smart, slick technology pop stars that others have chosen, I thought that was a compliment!

No, it wasn't, of course, Naik and every other pilot probably wants a Gnat in upgraded form. That was quick, slick and so small it apparently couldn't be picked up visually, and got dangerously close to you before being detected.

I'm just guessing.

Actually, a more reasonable explanation is that Naik expects it to meet the last, currently valid QSR, which will probably call for certain performance characteristics which have not yet been achieved. The Air Force may have conceded a point in letting the IOC take place without these being done, and Naik may have been reminding everyone not to get too comfortable but to concentrate on finishing these as well, and to work for FOC, and not imagine that it would be given omissions and all.

So, to use the awful phrase that techies have started using, net-net, where are we? We have a replacement for the MiG 21, and we may get it performing better than that plane, which was notoriously difficult to fly. Some - a few - pilots loved it, some loathed it. Apparently it was very manoeuvreable but apt to die on the pilot at the most awkward moments, at very dangerous moments. The Tejas is supposed to have very good manners, in contrast, and so replacing the MiG 21 may not be very difficult. Improving on it is what the IAF wants, and they will push to get it.

Some of it is engine-related. None of the trials so far have strained the airframe to the fullest; it has to 'pull' as many Gs as the stronger men can take to be able to perform at the best. This maximal effort has not been tried, says the grapevine, because of the lack of a good engine. Now that it is there, I expect that these last few wrinkles will be ironed out.

Nobody's really expecting any problems, but Naik is scared that accepting too readily will breed complacency. I think!

First of all , due respects and regards for your experience . I posted at the same time you did and thereby never noticed your previous post in the first place.I read the original article and to honestly seemed to me a repetition of what I read quite before


I am enclosing the article in question so you can judge for yourself

India Thought Leaders: Ownership Feeling Among Tejas Users Has Increased, Says ADA Chief | AVIATION WEEK

If I was rude because I misunderstood your point, I apologise. Let me look through the exchanges to date and get back to you.

Firstly no one takes any credit away from our scientists and technicians - they did magnificently under difficult circumstances , that is a fact .

However keeping the geo-politics around us , the rapid developments in the tech of our potential adversaries that our armed forces have to contend with.......Our developmental rates are un acceptibly slow.While its true that ISRO and DRDO was under restrictions and bans for ages especially after Pokhran II but so were others at various points of time .

China has been under the arms embargo for ages , for eg So has Pakistan after their nuclear tests.

My point is that our indigenous capability needs to be build up as fast as possible and while we should be happy at the LCA 's ultimate success , we should concentrate on rapid indigenous development
so that we dont end up with a technology gap over our rivals .

Besides what I am referring to is the future ....regardless of what happened in the past. I merely expressed the hope that

Our DRDO scientists would not try to" build everything from the scratch" as they so proudly declare having done with the LCA - if it results in a similar time span. Because as of now we are not so constrained as before.

You may have misinterpreted what I said, about our future prospects - and applied it to the LCA project.


Due Regards
Urbanized Greyhound

 

[WHITESMOKE]

I hope thread will return to normal mode soon.
@ topic, i think the most difficult job for Tejas has already been done ( making a jet from scratch) and reaming things are just few modifications/improvements. In past India has done modifications even with imported jets and SU-30 MKI is best example of this. India will surely get a lot of experience from MCA/FGFA, which will be later used for Tejas-II.

 

[My-Analogous]

Congratulations messages

Sorry for delay we are just 30 years late and please don't think that i am working in HAL

 

[silentinksoldier]

Congratulations messages

Sorry for delay we are just 30 years late and please don't think that i am working in HAL

awesome stuff man.....maybe this would make sense if i were drunk...

the project recieved funding only in the 90s..

 

[John Doe]

I am surprised you know this abbreviation, which was a set of India-specific upgrades, executed by Indian agencies integrating some western products and also doing some very good re-writes of the software. Yes, DARIN covered the items noted above earlier; I am not too sure about the scope of DARIN and DARIN II. Before my time a bit. I knew the IAF officer coordinating the effort, since while he was in HAL, he was my contact person in that organisation for simulators. But we never got around to talking about DARIN, and it never came up officially, unlike a lot of the other things we discussed.

Hello,

Here is an excellent, excellent blog by Tikkoo Sen , ex IAF. I am giving you the link for his'DARIN story' . But have a look at his other blog entries too when you get the chance, very well written!
The DARIN Story TKS' Tales
Take care,
JD

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Hello,

Here is an excellent, excellent blog by Tikkoo Sen , ex IAF. I am giving you the link for his'DARIN story' . But have a look at his other blog entries too when you get the chance, very well written!
The DARIN Story TKS' Tales
Take care,
JD

Yeah that's the ticket. Actually, the DARIN story had been reproduced elsewhere also. So unlike the bureaucratic red-tape stories that we usually get to read about.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hello,

Here is an excellent, excellent blog by Tikkoo Sen , ex IAF. I am giving you the link for his'DARIN story' . But have a look at his other blog entries too when you get the chance, very well written!
The DARIN Story TKS' Tales
Take care,
JD

Bless you for forwarding the link. It blew my socks off! This is the first time I've read about the DARIN story from an insider, in this case, obviously, THE insider. This just goes to show what the IAF, DRDO and HAL can do when they are pulling together.

It is not without significance that this project was driven by the IAF. Somehow, we've missed that element of the situation again and again and again. The more we ensure that all inductions are planned by the IAF, the smoother the entire development and induction processes will be.

Yeah that's the ticket. Actually, the DARIN story had been reproduced elsewhere also. So unlike the bureaucratic red-tape stories that we usually get to read about.

I agree; great read and inspiring. The 1553B bus integration was a terrific leap of faith at the time that it was taken up for use on this project. It also is a heart-warming illustration of the true capability for coordination and cutting through the bumf that the system can deliver when determined people take it on.

I wish I knew as much about DARIN and DARIN II as the Air Cdre knows, or about the project I worked on most closely, the glass cockpit for the Sukhois. We got to see the big picture only through our little window of visibility, and were dimly aware of titanic events taking place elsewhere at higher level.

What a wonderful start to the day.

Thanks again, John Doe. More, please.

 

[Ping]

which was notoriously difficult to fly

"Notoriously" ? WTF? Don't transfer blame from the incompetant newbie pilots to the plane.

Can you please explain comparing and contrasting our effort with an another successful effort? When our Airforce chief says that we only have Mig21++ and Airforce deserves more after waiting for such a long time, how we should take it?

Actually the truth is Tejas is "Mig-21++" in some aspects but "Mig-21--" in some attributes.

Tejas Mk-1 Advantages over Mig-21-
1# Range
2# Payload
3# Pilot friendly interface
4# Lower stall speed
5# Bigger radar and other latest avionics

Mig-21s Advantages over Tejas Mk-1-
1# Dirt Cheap. Infact you could say we got it for free. The soviet union was so generous they accepted payments via tea, other agricultural products and Indian Rupees!! This is not just for the Mig-21 but went all the way up to Mig-29. We only started paying in U.S dollars beginning with Su-30MKI.

2# Higher Angle of Attack

3# Higher Thrust to Weight ratio(standard AA config)

4# Faster

5# Higher Climb rate

6# High G Tolerance

7# No foreign components which can be sanctioned.

Remember, this is a plane which is dated back to the 1950s, and it still beats 2011 Tejas in some aspects, even after half a century!!
The funny thing is, 2011 Tejas still runs on critical foreign components, So it's not even an honest comparison. So no wonder ACM is dis-pleased.

Only our bollywood gossip media and some layman morons look down upon it. Ask USAF war veterans, or any well known aviation enthusiast or even our own ACM(you have to ask him privately though) about the -21.

 

[conworldus]

The Mig-21 will always be the legendary, highly maneuverable fighter so widely served in the world. Its agility was unprecedented at the time

The LCA's advantage is of course the composite material and all the new electronic goodies. But in aerodynamic design it hasn't been that impressive. Maybe Dassault flunked it. Without a proper engine it naturally cannot compete with the Mig-21 in dog fight performance.

 

[indushek]

Bless you for forwarding the link. It blew my socks off! This is the first time I've read about the DARIN story from an insider, in this case, obviously, THE insider. This just goes to show what the IAF, DRDO and HAL can do when they are pulling together.

It is not without significance that this project was driven by the IAF. Somehow, we've missed that element of the situation again and again and again. The more we ensure that all inductions are planned by the IAF, the smoother the entire development and induction processes will be.



I agree; great read and inspiring. The 1553B bus integration was a terrific leap of faith at the time that it was taken up for use on this project. It also is a heart-warming illustration of the true capability for coordination and cutting through the bumf that the system can deliver when determined people take it on.

I wish I knew as much about DARIN and DARIN II as the Air Cdre knows, or about the project I worked on most closely, the glass cockpit for the Sukhois. We got to see the big picture only through our little window of visibility, and were dimly aware of titanic events taking place elsewhere at higher level.

What a wonderful start to the day.

Thanks again, John Doe. More, please.

Went to the link above and saw that u couldn't resist from leaving a comment there too well i am no technical guy so couldn't make head or tail of it much. All i could understand was that all the right parties were involved and there was no cost overrun as such other than time. So this brings to my question?? why is it that the LCA a project so important was squandered in such a way?? Why is there always a difference between the IAF's and DRDO's version of the saga??

 

[GORKHALI]

"Notoriously" ? WTF? Don't transfer blame from the incompetant newbie pilots to the plane.



Actually the truth is Tejas is "Mig-21++" in some aspects but "Mig-21--" in some attributes.

Tejas Mk-1 Advantages over Mig-21-
1# Range
2# Payload
3# Pilot friendly interface
4# Lower stall speed
5# Bigger radar and other latest avionics

Mig-21s Advantages over Tejas Mk-1-
1# Dirt Cheap. Infact you could say we got it for free. The soviet union was so generous they accepted payments via tea, other agricultural products and Indian Rupees!! This is not just for the Mig-21 but went all the way up to Mig-29. We only started paying in U.S dollars beginning with Su-30MKI.

2# Higher Angle of Attack

3# Higher Thrust to Weight ratio(standard AA config)

4# Faster

5# Higher Climb rate

6# High G Tolerance

7# No foreign components which can be sanctioned.

Remember, this is a plane which is dated back to the 1950s, and it still beats 2011 Tejas in some aspects, even after half a century!!
The funny thing is, 2011 Tejas still runs on critical foreign components, So it's not even an honest comparison. So no wonder ACM is dis-pleased.

Only our bollywood gossip media and some layman morons look down upon it. Ask USAF war veterans, or any well known aviation enthusiast or even our own ACM(you have to ask him privately though) about the -21.

thats what i call one of the B.S post of this thread!!!
if we go by so called theory ,then there are some specs of mig 21 which beat even F 22

1>DIRT CHEAP AND LOW MAINTENACE THAN F22,any doubt ?

2>MAX speed of F 22 is approx. equal to MIG 21bis
Maximum speed of F22 RAPTOR:

At altitude: Mach 2.15 (1,500 mph, 2,410 km/h)[
Maximum speed of MIG 21 BIS :
2,350 km/h (1,468 mph)
Maximum speed: Mach 2.05

3>RAte of climb comparison
Rate of climb of mig 21 bis: 225 m/s (44,280 ft/min) is close to F22 raptor 222m/s (estimation as no data realsed by USA)

4>FOR EVERY F22 cost around 200million dollar vs 5 million cost per MIG21 bis ,that means we can place 40 MIG21 bis for every 1 raptor
1:40 RATIO .END OF RAPTOR STORY NOW. ISN'T????
whole world is fool except some including those who thanks to your post

 

[GORKHALI]

here what you acieved in tejas
gen ahead AVIONICS,better weapon load of 8 compare to 4 in mig 21bis,better servicebility,low maintence,longer range than or more than double the range of mig21 bis,pilot frndly cockpit ,better engine than tumanski
the only thing we lag is AOA which might be solved in LSP 6 and much higher in LCA mk2 version say 30 than its stated 24degree
sustain rate is decent for a interceptor primary role and radar is again GEN ahead than vintage radar of mig21
BTW A LCA MK 1 gonna cost 28million