We need two more years to defeat Pakistan | Subramanian Swamy

[That Guy]

Incorrect train of thought. Even if China were to build a pipeline from say Kandla port to China, it would not in any way make India give up its global ambitions.
The logic that India has to give up its global ambitions to offer China ports and roads is a massive falacy. Both can proceed equally and without impinging on the other.

It is obvious that as long as India remains a rival, Pakistan is needed as a counter balance. However, a counter balance is of different levels. Pakistan is simply not in the weight category to be an equal counter balance and be able to confine India's global ambitions, if anything the last decade has proved this to both China and the world which till a 1.5 decades back used to equate India and Pakistan.

What you are missing here is that China has over 180 nations to invest in it. And investing its single largest amount in one country suggests something that you are acutely missing - that China is hedging its bets.

It wants good relations with India and is willing to put money where it is not willing to put its mouth - yet. On the other hand with Pakistan, China is willing to put its mouth but not its money(any significant amount). There is something that Pakistani's keep missing when thinking of India China relations. You presume our rivalry is like India Pakistan. It is not, India and China has no significant dispute, no ideological dispute. Our only dispute is land, and while we both lay claim to what is in each others control, we have never fired a single bullet in the last 3 decades even when troops met. The border with China is the most peaceful border India has!
We both understand that eventually we will keep what is in our control respectively.

Completely wrong. Even if India gave up its global ambitions, Pakistan would continue to remain a hostile entity to India. Because our global ambitions have nothing to do with Kashmir. We would still never let Kashmir go.

You make your Army sound as if all it wants is to stop India from becoming a global power. That is completely incorrect. What Pakistan really wants is to ensure that it gets Kashmir, and keeps damaging India for a lot of reasons - including religious and ideological ones. That means not just stop India from becoming a global power but actively reduce India and keep chipping away what it has.

So our global ambitions or not, Pakistan would continue its current course that it has chosen for the last 3 decades. Consequently, our response to Pakistan would also be the same. The only change that would happen and is inevitable is that India and China would resolve our land boundary and Pakistan would be left anchorless in its ambitions against India. Because China is not going to damage its investment worth hundreds of billions of dollars in India for Pakistan

Except for the fact that you're wrong again.

It is not a fallacy to suggest that what India would offer and what China would want are two different things, despite what you claim. In fact, it is the ground reality.

A counter balance doesn't mean Pakistan needs to equal India in terms of power, what a counter balance in this term means is that India needs to be contained, which Pakistan is more than capable of doing. All Pakistan needs to do is remain a thorn on India's side, and it will have achieved it's purpose of keeping India in check.

What YOU'RE missing is the point that there are only two nations in the world that have the largest consumer markets, that's both India and China, trying to equate them to other nations in any way shape and form in terms of economic output and potential is a fallacy in and of it self. You talk of fallacies, but you don't seem to realize what that even means.

You say that China isn't investing a significant amount into Pakistan, but that is completely wrong. Both infrastructure, military and financial investments are quite significant for an economy the size of Pakistan, you're looking at the dollar amount instead of the ratio amount. The dollar amount is completely deceiving, and that is where I think you're missing the entire point here.

China wants decent relations with India, not good relations, there is a difference. If China can keep India subdued and non-hostile, while keeping India's global ambitions in check, it doesn't care about having good relations with India. Good would be political and social cohesion, but we both know that this isn't going to happen any time soon.

When it comes to Pakistan goals against India, what Pakistan wants is to slow down India's assent, because the stronger India gets, the bigger India's claim will be to Kashmir. A global India would mean political leverage, and the power to preach it's narrative to the entire world; That is what Pakistan fears most from a stronger India. Don't pretend that Kashmir has nothing to do with this, when the two issues are clearly linked (hell, we're already seeing such narratives coming out of India). Pakistan doesn't care about India, all it cares about is Kashmir. Of course there will be political and social hostility between the two, even if India gives up it's ambitions, but the military aspect will have become minimal, decreased to the point of only being concerned about Kashmir, which can be solved politically.

I highly doubt that India and China are going to resolve their border disputes in the near future; Like I keep telling you, stop trying to pose your opinion as facts. Saying India and China are going to resolve their border disputes any time soon, is not a factual statement.

What you keep suggesting doesn't fit geopolitical reality, as China isn't going to abandon Pakistan because of some sort of short term deal with India for a small piece of land. They're not going to give up their long term investment plans in Pakistan, because India offered them land that doesn't even equal to the amount of money that China has invested in Pakistan. It's a ridiculous statement to make, and completely ignores the negative return on investment that China would be getting from such a deal.

 

[Vinayak Tiwari]

probably India's Zaid Hamid and Hafiz Saeed combined

 

[pm modi]

Congratulations. I am sure when he gets an actual debrief from the Indian Strategic Command about our Nuclear posture, he would have to increase the number of Indians dead in a Pakistani nuclear strike from a 100 million to a Billion.

If we are attacked, we will unleash a sort of hell that will become a collective 'chita' of a Billion or so Indians. Pakistan has nothing to fear from a lunatic like him, Indians do.

Congratulations. I am sure when he gets an actual debrief from the Indian Strategic Command about our Nuclear posture, he would have to increase the number of Indians dead in a Pakistani nuclear strike from a 100 million to a Billion.

If we are attacked, we will unleash a sort of hell that will become a collective 'chita' of a Billion or so Indians. Pakistan has nothing to fear from a lunatic like him, Indians do.

ahh calm down kid shanti shanti
and to mr swami ji did you watch humshakal before interview aap pagal nahi he aap ka dimag kharab he

 

[SoundofSanity]

Having read the comments on this thread, I am amazed at how stupid most of the commentators are on this forum. Firstly, when I first visited this site, I imagined that the posters here were people with actual military or defense backgrounds. From the posts I have read so far, unfortunately, most people seem to have no military background or knowledge. Which is sad. As a rule, all discussions, on all forums, should be fact or logic based, rather than simply badmouthing each other, which is so extremely childish and bloody waste of time and energy.

Anyways, I'll put in my two cent's worth here.

To my Pakistani friends and compatriots, please pull your heads out of the cesspool of intolerance and stupidity and see our beloved country for what it has become: a pariah nation among the nations of the world, considered bad luck by all those who interact with it. Those few nations who actually interact with Pakistan anymore are those who wish to ensure that our foreseeable implosion does not cause them any harm: that is the limit of the "friendship" that we can boast of around the world. False bravado and ill-logic aside, Pakistan is in a very bad shape and needs to become far stronger and stable to be considered a nation to be sided with, and defended, in its hour of need.

To those Indian hegemonists and egoists, yes, your nation has done wonders in almost every field, compared to Pakistan, but you continue to remain behind the Developed World that you so desperately desire to be considered a part of. Until and unless you rein in such basic stuff as homelessness, social and religious segregation into the all-powerful and the untouchables, health, drinkable water, and usable toilets for the 100s of millions in your country, forget that you would ever be considered an equal by comity of developed nations. Today, India does command some respect, but mostly as a provider of skilled labor / human resource and entertainment. But that's where the AMAZING INDIA reality stops.

As for war between India and Pakistan, it is not a real possibility, by any stretch of the imagination, and that is why I claim that nearly all of the posters on this site have no military background or knowledge. If any of you were to be attached to or have even an inkling of intimate knowledge of their respective military establishments, you would realize that both these military establishments are more than happy to maintain the status quo and use such morons as the Swamy's and Zahid Hamid's on their respective sides to bolster nationalist support from the illiterate, uneducated and bigoted masses.

Through a number of internal and external studies and analysis, it has been proven repeatedly that a nuclear war between Pakistan and India will be a loss-loss situation, not just for these two nations, both of which will practically be thrown back into the stone ages, but the for the entire world, which will end up footing the bill for their reincarnation as even a semblance of independently viable countries again. That is why, no nation in this world wishes to see a war between these two countries (let alone a nuclear oe) and therefore, this war will never happen.

The only possible scenario is where a fanatical government takes hold in either Pakistan or India: the crazy nut Talibans or similar ilk in Pakistan or similarly crazed Hindutva-nuts in India. Both these scenarios, as per today's analysts, are pretty far fetched and any headway in that direction will face a strong push-back from the rest of the sane world.

So if we are not going to fight any wars with each other, why can't we work at resolving our issues? If India and Pakistan could simply agree to an Independent Kashmir, they would radically reduce their financial overheads and start spending the same amounts on their own nationals' health, residences, education and jobs.

As the bigger and more internationally powerful nation, India can begin this task by offering an Independent Kashmir. It will be a global demand fulfilled by a great state and India's reputation will only be affected positively, not negatively. The government which does that may lose the next elections or even all future elections, but it will establish a new India, which is logical and pragmatic in its approach towards global solutions.

Pakistan, on the other hand, can as easily accept India as a local power and drop its mostly stupid and bravado-filled opposition to India. With open trade between the countries and even half-decent relations, South Asia can become a centre of massive power across the world, bringing nothing but prosperity to the nations that reside here.

Let these two countries bear the torch of diplomacy and friendship and thereby prosper. It is far better than being at each other's throats at all times, while our nations suffer through abject poverty and destitution.

 

[IbnTaymiyyah]

what does this ******** smoke?
Would be a instant hit among the harami gore here.

 

[SoundofSanity]

what does this ******** smoke?
Would be a instant hit among the harami gore here.

Could you kindly advise which "BC" you are referring to, Sir? Because, if it is I that you so unkindly refer to, then I would like to put to you a question that I would like answered. If not, I apologize for making this assumption.

And my question would be to all those who think WAR between INDIA and PAKISTAN is a great thing:

"Provide to me a real-life scenario in which India / Pakistan actually ending up going to a full scale war, in the world of today, with the entire comity of nations failing to persuade them from NOT doing so?" A logical answer, with a realistic progression of events, will be preferred.

Furthermore, I would request you to please refrain from either using bad language or placing the words of respected persons in your signature, because both of these do not go together very well.

 

[ranjeet]

Someone from India spoke in a language Pakistani generally talk and they simply cr@pped their pants.

 

[airmarshal]

Take 200 years!

No exaggeration but you cant win. Sorry to disappoint.

Pakistan, on the other hand, can as easily accept India as a local power and drop its mostly stupid and bravado-filled opposition to India. With open trade between the countries and even half-decent relations, South Asia can become a centre of massive power across the world, bringing nothing but prosperity to the nations that reside here.

Let these two countries bear the torch of diplomacy and friendship and thereby prosper. It is far better than being at each other's throats at all times, while our nations suffer through abject poverty and destitution.

Local power you said.

All of us are idiots in one big swing of your great wisdom and your own statement here means we bring upon ourselves the geopolitical defeat by accepting India as a power.

The power game ends once Kashmir is settled. That is why India will never accept any resolution of Kashmir. Also, accepting Kashmir to separate will put pressure on India from other secessionist movements to accede to their demands too.

 

[SoundofSanity]

Take 200 years!

No exaggeration but you cant win. Sorry to disappoint.



Local power you said.

All of us are idiots in one big swing of your great wisdom and your own statement here means we bring upon ourselves the geopolitical defeat by accepting India as a power.

The power game ends once Kashmir is settled. That is why India will never accept any resolution of Kashmir. Also, accepting Kashmir to separate will put pressure on India from other secessionist movements to accede to their demands too.

Firstly, in my defense, I said "most posters", not all. However, in hindsight, that was harsh and rude. So I apologize. Simply a bad choice of words on my part.

However, I would love to understand what other scenarios exist for India and Pakistan to get along, other than the resolution of the Kashmir issue? While you say that the resolution of the Kashmir issue may embolden other separatists, I am unaware of any other issue that has been demanded by a global resolution, as is the case for Kashmir. If India can keep the Kashmiri people under duress for so long, I am quite sure they can do so for the other, much smaller movements. Especially, with a large proportion of its resources released from being expended senselessly in Kashmir.

So, once again, if we are not going to war with India and we are not resolving our disputes with them either, how long can we maintain the status quo i.e. continuous bilateral efforts to hurt and damage each nation and its people, at a humungous cost? How does this serve the two nations, in any constructive way or manner? Will someone please respond to my query. I'll be obliged.

 

[IceCold]

Thanks God people like Zahid Hamid and Hafiz Saeed are not even close to ever win a seat yet alone becoming the defense minister on the other hand we have a lunatic who does not care if a million Indians die. Wow

Good choice Indians. Keep it up.

 

[B+ Dracula]

You had nukes in Kargil war.Musharaff wanted to use them to threaten and blackmail India and International community in order to make ceasefire and land gained would be under them. ,he wrote in his Biography.We didn't care our PM AB Vajpayee called for "Aar paar ki ladayi".That shook your establishment and ran to USA for mediation.

1999 we have nukes but not ""OPERATIONAL""....revealed in book BY Musharraf
musharraf was harshly criticized after taking that National Secret out in Public......Our newspaper bashed him for many days, i think u missed to read that point...

 

[HariPrasad]

This is how the story goes.

• Indian Muslims share DNA with the Hindus which makes them Hindus.
• Caliphate will be established and India will go to War with Caliphate.
• India should wage War and send 200,000 troops to Afghanistan (invasion)
• Keep dumping your head in the sand on Kashmir
• We can defeat Pakistan in a War, but we need two more years
• Before we go to War with Pakistan, we need to 'neutralize' China through War.
  
• Start a Nuclear War , doesn't matter how many Indians die (as long as i'm not one of them), we have to finish the satanic, evil Pakistanis.
  
  End of thesis, good luck to India. May God give you more of these 'Think Tanks'.

Hi Dear Aero,

The difference in India and pakistan is that there are very few buyers of his view in India, Where as warmongers like Zaid Hamid and Hafeez sayed has mass following in Pakistan. They even have the people to act on their order.

My comprehension skills are a little overmatch for your jingoism. All Pakistan has to do is to destroy the Indian wheatbelt, the rest will starve to death, those who remain will die out of radiation inflicted cancer.

Your indian geography knowledge is under match with your statement.

Your Defense institutes too are polluted by Hindutvadesi nuclear extremists.

Abdul Kalam was the head of of Shakti 98 nuclear explosion.

 

[SQ8]

Swami ji really has no knowledge as such. Pakistan could be defeated since 87. The question is whether India would survive that defeat in any useful form.

 

[HariPrasad]

Subramaniac Swamy in your quest to defeat Pakistan- we will make sure you die a miserable radioactive death first along with your loved ones- infact we will make sure even your 7th Janam as a cockroach is squashed under Pak Army boots- -

You are talking as if you are Allah. You know claiming oneself to be Allah is prohibited in Islam.

It also seems that you are not a true Muslim since you believe in Punarjanma.

 

[JonAsad]

You are talking as if you are Allah. You know claiming oneself to be Allah is prohibited in Islam.

It also seems that you are not a true Muslim since you believe in Punarjanma.

Hari Prasad putter- try again provoking me- you getting old at that sh it- this did not work- -