We know how to deal with you, India warns Pakistan

[Spitfighter]

Action was, is and will be taken against the terrorists, period. Everything else i.e. importance of US pressure is irrelevant. US involvement in the region is an intense and complex matter. US pressure will always be present. However, Pakistan always acts in what is in her best interest, with or without US pressure. That is something that has been acknowledged by the US. If we act, we acted, thats the end of it. This in no way credits the argument that Pakistan has not acted.

There is a crackdown on LeT/JuD. It has been going on for a decade now. The fact that these organizations are not destroyed or are able to resurface in some form does not substantiate the arguments that no crackdown has taken place. By their very nature, these organizations and their splinter groups will be hard to completely eradicate. Almost impossible if the underlying causes are not addressed. India is only making things worse by this militaristically confrontational approach which is annoying many Pakistanis who can see their country struggling against terrorism and being bullied by an old rival at the same time.

Lastly, as a matter of forum policy we do not consider India Today to be anywhere near a credible or reliable source of information in regards to Pakistan. Their biases are comically apparent, as has been exposed. Use neutral sources where possible to anchor your arguments. What is clearly blatant and crude Indian political rhetoric cannot be counted as an impartial source of information.

And many of us would like to believe that, but when you have known terrorists like Hafiz Saeed running around making speeches of violent jihad against India, then one can't help but think that Pakistan is merely up to its old tricks again.

If you are going to argue that there isn't enough evidence against Hafiz Saeed, please do post a little about his career as the head of the LeT also.

 

[SMC]

Well well, a mass terrorism supporting state such as india making these kinds of statements. Sounds childish really. I think ISI has them by balls in Afghanistan now. They are getting sad that their terrorism won't continue much longer now . Right, have a last go and then pack your bags, epic terrorists.

 

[karan.1970]

Well well, a mass terrorism supporting state such as india making these kinds of statements. Sounds childish really. I think ISI has them by balls in Afghanistan now. They are getting sad that their terrorism won't continue much longer now . Right, have a last go and then pack your bags, epic terrorists.

This is so much like a young kid who keep saying that there is a ghost in his room and the ghost is responsible for all the mess in his room. And then one day he cleans his room and tom toms around saying that he has killed the ghost..

 

[SMC]

That's a ridiculous comparison. LOL.

 

[karan.1970]

That's a ridiculous comparison. LOL.

i dont think so.. Pakistan nurtured and encouraged these terrorists for its proxy war against India and to project influence in Afghanistan after withdrawl of Russians.. Just like in an earthquake, the damage is maximum at the epicenter, the same applies for terrorism which is visible today in Pakistan..

The easy answer for the pakistani establishment was to blame india (like it does for all its failings) for this terrorist menace to avoid its domestic backlash. Like the kid blames the ghost for the mess in his room.

Now that US (like a strict parent) forced you to clean your mess, you are tom toming around claiming a victory over Indian terrorism that didnt exist to begin with (just like the ghost in the story)...

 

[SMC]

Your logic contains some serious problems. It reeks of ignorance.

1. These terrorists were never encouraged by Pakistan or supported. What you're talking about is Afghan Taliban, not TTP.

2. TTP have always been there from the Taliban days wanting to attack Pakistan. They were never under that official name, but the same group was there. They just need funding and weapons and training. Which is what, I believe, India is doing.

Your assumption that Pakistan is blaming India to avoid domestic backlash is problematic as well. That means you know exactly what is going on inside GoP. It also does not allow for different opinion as you're telling someone that this is reason why GoP is doing it, meaning that's the only possible explanation as to why GoP is doing it. Any alternative explanation must be false. You're making it sound like black and white, as if you know all there's needed to be known.

Same goes for you saying indian terrorism doesn't exist. You're telling me indian terrorism never existed, I am saying it did, however I am not saying it directly to you. In other words, I am keeping my opinion to myself, however getting it across to the world to see, while you're pretty much trying to force your opinion down my throat as you replied directly to me. That being tndia can never do it, Pakistan is doing it to deflact responsibility, etc. Also again, you're trying to imply you know exactly what's going on with indian intelligence. You're making it sound black and white, again.

As to the original analogy, I will tell you why it's problematic. I have seen the same sort of sarcastic arguments being used before. Basically, the problem is that you're comparing something plausible, something realistically possible, to something so outlandish and weird to accept as reality, that you're trying to make the original hypothesis sound outlandish and weird. The two things are similar in some ways, in that there is blame being put on something, but you're using that to make the two sound equal. i.e. since Y is this way, so is X. However, Y and X are only the same in a few things. It's a straw man argument basically. Here, you're comparing Indian involvement - which is a plausible scenario - to an event where it's obvious that the child is at fault in deflecting the blame. It's not as obvious whether GoP is deflecting blame. It's all speculation at this point. Read my next paragraph as to why. But as regards to your comparison, it's obvious that the child is deflecting blame, however not so for GoP. One thing is black and white, other not so. You're trying to make them sound equally or almost equally black and white, which they are not. For the first event, we have all the information we need to come at a conclusion, not even close for the other one. So this is the problem with your analogy, your comparison. I see it being done all the time by indians in regards to these matters.

Now as to why what you're saying is speculative, let's look back at history. Has India ever presented concrete proof for ISI involvement in India? Nope. All of it is sort of assumed through later confessions or that ISI is the only one that can be involved. Evidence I have came across is not concrete, and GoPI has also given that sort of evidence for indian involvement which indians rejected. So in other words, there's no concrete proof of ISI involvement in India. At least as far as the recent allegations go (which I see indians believing with open arms), there's zero proof. The same idea can be applied here.

The second argument that Pakistan would be crying horse if India really was involved. Recall that no one really cared about Indian allegations previously until it became in the interests of certain nations to do so. Same can be applied here again.

In other words, all the arguments that indians have been throwing fall apart, and what you guys say right now becomes speculative. Whether GoP has not publicly given evidence becomes irrelevant. So what you guys are saying here is speculation at best and definitely things are not as black and white as you make them to be. And it reeks of major hypocrisy.

 

[Kasrkin]

And many of us would like to believe that, but when you have known terrorists like Hafiz Saeed running around making speeches of violent jihad against India, then one can't help but think that Pakistan is merely up to its old tricks again.

He is hardly running around and making speeches now, let alone 'instigating' anyone. As far as 'known terrorist' goes, well to you he may be such. But since he cannot be legally linked to the crimes you accuse him of (without evidence to back it up) then I'm afraid he will remain out of jail. This is how law works. He maybe a known terrorists to you because of the actions of his group against military targets in Kashmir. However, realistically, not all Pakistanis will share that sentiment.

please do post a little about his career as the head of the LeT also.

The information we and you have in relation to his links with the LeT is obviously insufficient or irrelevant to his conviction as a terrorist responsible for crimes against unarmed civilians. YOU need to post the information from a neutral source and argue with it if you're so certain instead of asking me to do it for you.

 

[Kasrkin]

I believe that the belief in Pakistan (and rightly so) that India cannot go to war with Pakistan (a short low intensity conflict) is reducing India's policy options and emboldening the anti-India (ie majority) there...for this and only this reason; India must build capability to exercise this action to put fear in the Pak policy makers mind of Indian action and that alone can change the terror policy of Pakistan and roll back the camps etc...

Well, India already is trying to do everything to achieve a military capacity that will crush Pakistan. However, despite all that spending we're still at a rough military balance. The notion that a belligerent and threatening India emboldens the pro-Indian elements in our country is hopelessly naive. Its quite the opposite as anyone even remotely familiar with Pakistani public opinion will tell you. When Pakistanis see India spending so much on its defense capacity and routinely threatening to use it against them they're more inclined to stick to their guns. They won't cower down and you'd have to be remarkably arrogant to think otherwise. Its described as a circle of escalation, distrust and hostility by international relations scholars that misguided mentalities like this give birth to.

 

[karan.1970]

He is hardly running around and making speeches now, let alone 'instigating' anyone. As far as 'known terrorist' goes, well to you he may be such. But since he cannot be legally linked to the crimes you accuse him of (without evidence to back it up) then I'm afraid he will remain out of jail. This is how law works. He maybe a known terrorists to you because of the actions of his group against military targets in Kashmir. However, realistically, not all Pakistanis will share that sentiment.

The information we and you have in relation to his links with the LeT is obviously insufficient or irrelevant to his conviction as a terrorist responsible for crimes against unarmed civilians. YOU need to post the information from a neutral source and argue with it if you're so certain instead of asking me to do it for you.

If I understand your logic, it goes like this..

While UNSC has declared Saeed as a terrorist, Pakistan does not want to take any action against him because the law of the land does not allow an individual to be prosecuted without evidence

understandable that you are arguing that Pakistan has to give precedence to its laws over the UNSC declarations..

However, the same logic then applies to the UNSC resolution of 1948. Whatever it says, the law of land in India does not allow for any state to vote for its independence/secession to another country..

Kashmir may be a disputed area to you because of a UNSC resolution fo 60 years back. However, realistically, not all Indians will share that sentiment.

 

[Iggy]

There is a crackdown on LeT/JuD. It has been going on for a decade now. The fact that these organizations are not destroyed or are able to resurface in some form does not substantiate the arguments that no crackdown has taken place. By their very nature, these organizations and their splinter groups will be hard to completely eradicate. Almost impossible if the underlying causes are not addressed. India is only making things worse by this militaristically confrontational approach which is annoying many Pakistanis who can see their country struggling against terrorism and being bullied by an old rival at the same time.

.

Sir my knowledge to Pakistan internal matters are limited . can you show me with some links or tell me when was any action taken against Sayeed and Lakhvi prior to the 26\11 incident and most of the claims of cracking downs of the organisations were started only after UN banned them..before that please tell me any action were taken against them?Even after the banning of LeT the people who formed the organisation was roamed free around Pakistan and people like Maulana Masood Azhar who freed from Indian jail after the Kandahar incident were also in Pakistan and no action was taken against them....He was jailed after the killing of Daniel Pearl..these all are showing the lack of willingness from Pakistan side to take action against terrorist groups working against India..

 

[Windjammer]

Albeit the retard thought claiming, Kashmiri Freedom Fighters are infiltrators, is already lodged in the Indian upper crust as is the ghost of ISI keeping them on the edge but freaking out on Talibans must be the feather in the cap. Reminds me of the Donkey shutting it's eyes upon seeing the Tiger, hoping the Tiger wouldn't see it either.
Since the surgical strikes have been placed on a back burner, eventually other bitter pills will go down a treat and no doubt the realization will dawn that it's not a room but the whole house is in a mess.

 

[karan.1970]

Your logic contains some serious problems. It reeks of ignorance.

1. These terrorists were never encouraged by Pakistan or supported. What you're talking about is Afghan Taliban, not TTP.

2. TTP have always been there from the Taliban days wanting to attack Pakistan. They were never under that official name, but the same group was there. They just need funding and weapons and training. Which is what, I believe, India is doing.

I am talking about both.. Both are terrorist organizations and are fairly homogeneous in nature. About India funding them, show me any credible neutral source saying that..Else you are free to believe anything you want including the crop circles and aliens

Your assumption that Pakistan is blaming India to avoid domestic backlash is problematic as well. That means you know exactly what is going on inside GoP. It also does not allow for different opinion as you're telling someone that this is reason why GoP is doing it, meaning that's the only possible explanation as to why GoP is doing it. Any alternative explanation must be false. You're making it sound like black and white, as if you know all there's needed to be known.

Not at all.. Just like you think India is sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan, I believe its not. Just like you are putting forth your point of view, I am putting forth mine. I guess when you say in your post

"Well well, a mass terrorism supporting state such as india "

or

"epic terrorists"

you are trying to paint a fairly black and white picture yourself..

Same goes for you saying indian terrorism doesn't exist. You're telling me indian terrorism never existed, I am saying it did, however I am not saying it directly to you. In other words, I am keeping my opinion to myself, however getting it across to the world to see, while you're pretty much trying to force your opinion down my throat as you replied directly to me. That being tndia can never do it, Pakistan is doing it to deflact responsibility, etc. Also again, you're trying to imply you know exactly what's going on with indian intelligence. You're making it sound black and white, again.

Well, when you call india as mass supporter of terrorism and Epic Terrorist on an Internet forum, you are hadly keeping your opinion to yourself.. I am simply replying bassed on the best information available. No one believes what pakistan is propogating about India sponsoring terrorism. While this can not be construed as a solid proof on India's innocense, but till proven other wise, will have to do... And since its not yet been proven, I will have to go with the stance of this being poppycock..

As to the original analogy, I will tell you why it's problematic. I have seen the same sort of sarcastic arguments being used before. Basically, the problem is that you're comparing something plausible, something realistically possible, to something so outlandish and weird to accept as reality, that you're trying to make the original hypothesis sound outlandish and weird. The two things are similar in some ways, in that there is blame being put on something, but you're using that to make the two sound equal. i.e. since Y is this way, so is X. However, Y and X are only the same in a few things. It's a straw man argument basically. Here, you're comparing Indian involvement - which is a plausible scenario - to an event where it's obvious that the child is at fault in deflecting the blame. It's not as obvious whether GoP is deflecting blame. It's all speculation at this point. Read my next paragraph as to why. But as regards to your comparison, it's obvious that the child is deflecting blame, however not so for GoP. One thing is black and white, other not so. You're trying to make them sound equally or almost equally black and white, which they are not. For the first event, we have all the information we need to come at a conclusion, not even close for the other one. So this is the problem with your analogy, your comparison. I see it being done all the time by indians in regards to these matters.

No doubt my example is an exaggeration. And it is meant to be.. Thats how you show the futility of an arguement that has been made to sound plausible by intertwining it in the complexities of if, maybe, probably and other shades of grey..And Pakistan's accusations are just that. The burden of proof is on the accuser and not accused. Just like India proved that Kasab is a pakistani and Pakistan agreed..

Now as to why what you're saying is speculative, let's look back at history. Has India ever presented concrete proof for ISI involvement in India? Nope. All of it is sort of assumed through later confessions or that ISI is the only one that can be involved. Evidence I have came across is not concrete, and GoPI has also given that sort of evidence for indian involvement which indians rejected. So in other words, there's no concrete proof of ISI involvement in India. At least as far as the recent allegations go (which I see indians believing with open arms), there's zero proof. The same idea can be applied here.

And thats why India does not officially accuse ISI. While media and localized statements by Think Tanks may refer to ISI, the official stand of India (at least recently) is to go after LeT and Hafiz Saeed..

The second argument that Pakistan would be crying horse if India really was involved. Recall that no one really cared about Indian allegations previously until it became in the interests of certain nations to do so. Same can be applied here again.

I dont remember making that arguement..

In other words, all the arguments that indians have been throwing fall apart, and what you guys say right now becomes speculative. Whether GoP has not publicly given evidence becomes irrelevant. So what you guys are saying here is speculation at best and definitely things are not as black and white as you make them to be. And it reeks of major hypocrisy.

We were talking of Pakistan's arguements about Indian involvement here.. And accusing without giving proof is what is irrelevent since GoP has not given any proof to anyone (except internal sources in ISI and Army) .. Publically or otherwise (since there is no reaction to it).

I really dont know where does hypocrisy come in here since you have not even stitched your arguement together..

 

[afriend]

Please understand that I don't really care how and why you've come to hold such unrefined sentiments in regards to my country. Having a balanced take on things is your own responsibility. If you choose or are obliged to be so selective and narrow in your analyzation of things then that is not the fault of anyone else, not me or Pakistan.

I don't have time or the need (I feel) to address the factors you say are responsible for leading you believe that Pakistan is not fighting the terrorists. That is simply below my energies. Suffice to say that this 'blatant non-compliance' of promises is all in your head.

Why do we have to explain ourselves and throw light at all we have done for you? Your argument is not factual, therefore there is no need to address it with comprehensive facts. Its never 'guilty until proven innocent', you need to back up your astoundingly ignorant claims of Pakistan doing nothing before we have to prove that we're doing anything.

Your views and understanding is very polarized. You may not be an extremist in the sense that we commonly refer to, but your views are not much more balanced or independent. Please try to examine the other side yourself before expecting us to do it for you, I'm sure that you will come across many things that will give you pause for thought since you say you are so neutral.

Kaskrin, there is no scope of argument here..!!! Down the lane talking high doesnt count.. results is what that matters..!!! And i cannot be balanced just for the sake of it.. and that is why i am open to your arguments but you are just shutting the door. By an very irritating argument that you are doing so many things.. but are unable to back it up with results as there is no let down in infilteration or terror attacks in my country..

End of the day i am sure kashmir is the issue and you guys are having trouble in bringing these groups working against india under the definition of terrorists..in every of your conversations you have linked these terrorist actions to the fight in kashmir.. Well i would say that this hypocracy is what pisses off people.. and its very absurd that even video graphics evidence doesnt count.. we in india are seeing these things.. its unbelievable that you guys there are completely unaware of it.....well if you have trouble about it dont ever tell that you will take action against anti india elements just let go of the hypocracy so that we all have a case fair and square....!!!

And i still believe the objective of such forums is to pass on informations and bring in a balanced view if possible.. if you aint intrested in that ok then i shall continue to hold on to my assumptions until and other wise i get information on the contrary..!!! And i believe the relations between our countries is going to continualy sore.. And unless and until kashmir becomes a least priority item in our list of issues to be solved... every of your actions and our response will be under a cloud of mistrust...(i know u dont care a damn about it either )

 

[Kasrkin]

While UNSC has declared Saeed as a terrorist, Pakistan does not want to take any action against him because the law of the land does not allow an individual to be prosecuted without evidence

I do not see it that way. While the UNSC may have declared the LeT/JuD terrorist organizations, which is also our official state position, there is no resolution calling for the immediate arrest of Saeed's person. Especially not an unlawful arrest without charge. You need to clear facts.

Kashmir may be a disputed area to you because of a UNSC resolution fo 60 years back. However, realistically, not all Indians will share that sentiment.

India is not the UN. The same accusation of hypocrisy which you're accusing us of can in this case apply to you as well. India hasn't respected UN resolutions for 60 years, now all of a sudden UN statements are being misinterpreted to score a moral point over Pakistan. Kashmir however is not entirely relevant here. Suffice to say you need to tell me exactly what the UN says in regards to the matter, instead of vaguely alluding to it if you wish to convince us of Pakistan's disregard of an international verdict. I will repeat again, what India thinks or conveniently interprets is not necessarily where the UN stands.

Sir my knowledge to Pakistan internal matters are limited . can you show me with some links or tell me when was any action taken against Sayeed and Lakhvi prior to the 26\11 incident and most of the claims of cracking downs of the organisations were started only after UN banned them..before that please tell me any action were taken against them?Even after the banning of LeT the people who formed the organisation was roamed free around Pakistan and people like Maulana Masood Azhar who freed from Indian jail after the Kandahar incident were also in Pakistan and no action was taken against them....He was jailed after the killing of Daniel Pearl..these all are showing the lack of willingness from Pakistan side to take action against terrorist groups working against India..

The crackdown begun when Pakistan joined the American lead WoT which was around a decade ago under Musharraf. We all know that these groups were operating before that in Kashmir with support from the Pakistani side that may or may not have been ignored by elements in the Pakistani state. What is important is that Pakistan is acting now, which is the argument I'm making.

If you require neutral material regarding Musharraf's unpopular efforts to crackdown on these organizations and the obvious changes in their freedoms since then I can provide it for you. But I suggest you read a book about the Pakistan Army which will clear things up for you and put them into perspective.

Kaskrin, there is no scope of argument here..!!! Down the lane talking high doesnt count.. results is what that matters..!!! And i cannot be balanced just for the sake of it.. and that is why i am open to your arguments but you are just shutting the door. By an very irritating argument that you are doing so many things.. but are unable to back it up with results as there is no let down in infilteration or terror attacks in my country..

There has been an overwhelming fall in infiltration because of active efforts by the Pakistani Army from our side of the Disputed Territory. The drop is more than 90% actually, as has been bitterly acknowledged by Indian military officials themselves. Do some research please. I will not do it for you. Please understand that the discourse is extremely unrewarding this way.

n every of your conversations you have linked these terrorist actions to the fight in kashmir.. Well i would say that this hypocracy is what pisses off people..

This 'hypocrisy' is a reality, regardless of whether it pisses nationalistic indians off or not. These organizations were birthed due to the conflict in Kashmir. Many foreign and neutral observers do stress on resolving the issue of Kashmir as a primary means of relieving tensions between the two countries and making terrorism more and more ineffective and irrelevant. Like I said before, you need to have the courage to explore the other side of views outside the very narrow spectrum you're constraining yourself to.

 

[karan.1970]

I do not see it that way. While the UNSC may have declared the LeT/JuD terrorist organizations, which is also our official state position, there is no resolution calling for the immediate arrest of Saeed's person. Especially not an unlawful arrest without charge. You need to clear facts.

You may not, but UN does...

Please read the following


The Al-Qaida and Taliban Sanctions Committee - 1267
The Committee maintains a Consolidated List of individuals and entities subject to the sanctions measures. By resolutions 1267 (1999), 1333 (2000), 1390 (2002), as reiterated in resolutions 1455 (2003), 1526 (2004), 1617 (2005), 1735 (2006) and 1822 (2008), the Security Council has obliged all States to:

* freeze without delay the funds and other financial assets or economic resources, including funds derived from property owned or controlled directly or indirectly

* prevent the entry into or the transit through their territories
* prevent the direct or indirect supply, sale, or transfer of arms and related material, including military and paramilitary equipment, technical advice, assistance or training related to military activities, with regard to the individuals, groups, undertakings and entities placed on the Consolidated List.

This is from the United Nations site from the text of the resolution that declares JuD as a terrorist organization and Hafiz Saeed as a terrorist.. Do look at the text I have made bold above..
Apart from that, the interpol has also issues a red corner notice against him

Interpol issues red corner notice against Saeed, Lakhvi | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

India is not the UN. The same accusation of hypocrisy which you're accusing us of can in this case apply to you as well. India hasn't respected UN resolutions for 60 years, now all of a sudden UN statements are being misinterpreted to score a moral point over Pakistan. Kashmir however is not entirely relevant here. Suffice to say you need to tell me exactly what the UN says in regards to the matter, instead of vaguely alluding to it if you wish to convince us of Pakistan's disregard of an international verdict. I will repeat again, what India thinks or conveniently interprets is not necessarily where the UN stands.

So I was really not blaming pakistan for non adherence to UNSC resolution. Am simply pointing out that like Pakistan does not want to put UNSC resolutions above its national interest, neither does India. So Pakistan can not chose to disregard one UNSC resolution while still trying to claim high moral ground on India not adhering to another..