We are in a mess, I can't spell it out: Manohar Parrikar

[gslv]

now someone will come here and shout Shoooooo. Thats the ostrich mentality of congis. bloody bastards.

 

[The Huskar]

Just a few.

It's better to start somewhere.

 

[Dash]

Good for you guys but students from sub continent are always found lacking in fundamental thoughts which mostly is because of the rote work from school.

If that change I think everything will fall in place.

Are you crazy? Indians and Chinese beat western students any day, you guys read readymade, while we eat raw.

 

[Screambowl]

It's better to start somewhere.

that time is gone. When we will start. now is the time of TOT.

 

[Providence]

Are you crazy? Indians and Chinese beat western students any day, you guys read readymade, while we eat raw.

oh you mean the grades ? I am sorry grades doesn't matter much here while recommendations do.

 

[Dash]

oh you mean the grades ? I am sorry grades doesn't matter much here while recommendations do.

I dont mean grades, I mean the real syllabus. The syllabus out here is more rigorous and rugged than west. Please have no doubt about that. Everybody follows one curriculum until 10. So the foundation you earlier pointed out is actually very strong here.

 

[Providence]

I dont mean grades, I mean the real syllabus. The syllabus out here is more rigorous and rugged than west. Please have no doubt about that. Everybody follows one curriculum until 10. So the foundation you earlier pointed out is actually very strong here.

You have really drank the kool aid it seems when obama praises indians and chinese on national TV.

No one is denying it. In a lot of schools, batches are comprised almost 100% of indians and chinese in Ms but what about fundamental research ! How many of them go there ? Significantly less than us still !

 

[Dash]

You have really drank the kool aid it seems when obama praises indians and chinese on national TV.

No one is denying it. In a lot of schools, batches are comprised almost 100% of indians and chinese in Ms but what about fundamental research ! How many of them go there ? Significantly less than us still !

We are already there, its a gradual progress, give 10 yrs when we will outnumber you.

 

[nik22]

You have really drank the kool aid it seems when obama praises indians and chinese on national TV.

No one is denying it. In a lot of schools, batches are comprised almost 100% of indians and chinese in Ms but what about fundamental research ! How many of them go there ? Significantly less than us still !

Sir, it does not mean, Indian lack in fundamentals. It could simply be that India is a poor country, most of the people are from middle class. Their parents put lot of effort in education of children. Students who go to US, want to start earning ASAP after their MS. I know few who are doing PHDs as well.

As like any country, you would find all type of people in India. Some who are just dumb, brilliant and ... My distant cousin live in US. She told me that Indian and Chinese kids usually score higher on academic side. But if there are Jews or Russian jews in class, no can beat them.

 

[sancho]

If he realise and feel that we are in Mess, then that is a good sign, A problem is half solved once you accept that there is a problem..........

Well, one can realize one thing and do another. The new government is in record to make India more self reliant to reduce the defence imports, but didn't rejected a single procurement in favour for an indigenous product or development. Their aim is not self reliance by increased indigenous developments, but increased production in India, no matter of where the product was developed. So even if they realized the problem, they aim on something else!

RBI governor Raghuram Rajan said it quiet well, when he asked the government that India rather needs a Make FOR India campaign and not a Make IN India. He wasn't talking about the defence field, but that fits here as well, since the production of foreign arms in India, doesn't make Indian industry itself anymore capable to develop similar products. Just as the focus on export these products, produced in India, will only benefit the foreign vendors and their products, since they can sell them at lower costs, but does it make Indian products from DRDO for example more interesting on the export market?

More cooperation with the IIT is a good step to improve the base of DRDO or PSU's, but the problem is the head of DRDO! The high officials that take the wrong decisions, that are not taken accountable, that are simply bad in project management and cooperation with the forces. More than improving the base, an actual reform on how the PSUs work, would be much better to improve them and Indian defence developments, if the long term aim is self reliance.

 

[acid rain]

But a few points are missing from this statement. The Navy interacts with DRDO like no other military branch. They have their own Naval officials assisting development at all levels. The Navy is very proactive and is truly working to achieve successful domestic ventures. The problem with the Airforce and Army to some degree has been the brass. There is a lot of corruption that is fully ingrained at the top and mid levels. Many middlemen are former army and airforce brass who retired and still maintain major connections. They make sure their connections get promoted and pushed into the "right" positions working with certain influential politicans. You can take a guess who they are. Its not hard. Just open your eyes bro.

Middlemen culture is created by the politicians which aids them in their corruption. IA officials directly coordinate with research agencies - they have a seperate organization for it headed by a colonel.

Similarly IAF and research agencies coordinate - they have a few common airfields where coordinated tests and verifications take place.

 

[Providence]

Sir, it does not mean, Indian lack in fundamentals. It could simply be that India is a poor country, most of the people are from middle class. Their parents put lot of effort in education of children. Students who go to US, want to start earning ASAP after their MS. I know few who are doing PHDs as well.

As like any country, you would find all type of people in India. Some who are just dumb, brilliant and ... My distant cousin live in US. She told me that Indian and Chinese kids usually score higher on academic side. But if there are Jews or Russian jews in class, no can beat them.

Won't these indians and Chinese and Russian jews be working in american economy ? Advantage ours

Point is to focus on fundamentals more. Some institutions in India are doing great work in thorium research. Let something similar come up in classical science streams as well.

 

[sancho]

He also says that the navy gets along well with DRDO.

But why? Because DRDO is not developing complete vessels, but only sub systems like sensors, while they are not that happy with N-LCA or Barak 8 developments, with delays and performance issues from what DRDO promised. That however is the same problem that IA and IAF are facing with DRDO, be it with Arjun or LCA, because they are dependent on DRDO to develop the product without having any influence on it, other than setting up basic requirements.

Today navy is making an aircraft carrier, a nuclear submarine and a naval version of LCA, a destroyer with aesa, a 90% indigenous ASW corvette and what not.

That's a partial myth, based on the indigenous capability of our ship yards to develop and produce some vessels, but when you take a larger perspective, you will see that IN is importing quiet a lot (tankers, LPDs, SSKs, frigates, mine sweepers, 90% of the naval helicopter and MPA fleet...). If IN would be as focused on indigenous development as people think, why don't they have a joint development with HAL for a naval helicopter development, the one field where Indian aero industry is successful and has potential, is ignored by IN to some naval Dhruvs for shore based SAR and utilitly roles. Same goes for the indigenous UAV developments, where they could show more cooperation too, rather than ordering more Israeli or now maybe US drones.

 

[Krate M]

@Providence I understand what you mean, the rote mentality is changing and you would see the results in a generation time. My generation has understood the power of promoting thinking, of understanding over knowledge.

@sancho that import is due to non use of private sector, lack of modernization in government owned yards, which changed recently and a strange government policy.
The other thing is lack of funding for navy, navy would want to fund more projects, but is constrained by funds so its prioritizing. Navy has a fundamental understanding of our MIC and you will see more involvement in the UAV sector as it matures.
The other problem is turf war between IN and IAF in the sectors you said.
In helos the navy is involved, the problem is with the Dhruv platform. The development is still on though.

Our previous government policy is also responsible for some buying of outside systems.

@sancho the only major problem navy has had with DRDO is delay, it has never criticized the performance of the systems like IA and IAF, it has instead chosen to induct and work on future systems, NLCA is a prime example, it has reaped the fruits of this strategy.
See the example of INS khukri and HF73

 

[Nihil]

But a few points are missing from this statement. The Navy interacts with DRDO like no other military branch. They have their own Naval officials assisting development at all levels. The Navy is very proactive and is truly working to achieve successful domestic ventures. The problem with the Airforce and Army to some degree has been the brass. There is a lot of corruption that is fully ingrained at the top and mid levels. Many middlemen are former army and airforce brass who retired and still maintain major connections. They make sure their connections get promoted and pushed into the "right" positions working with certain influential politicans. You can take a guess who they are. Its not hard. Just open your eyes bro.

I can vouch for what you said. The Navy has had enlightened leadership, and it was forced to after SM Nanda's dealings came to light. But among all forces, its been the Army that has been the most corrupt when it comes to procurement.

Just a few.

Not very few. The number of IIT B.Techs that join IAS, or Indian companies are over 50%. Rampant brain drain is largely a myth today.

You have really drank the kool aid it seems when obama praises indians and chinese on national TV.

No one is denying it. In a lot of schools, batches are comprised almost 100% of indians and chinese in Ms but what about fundamental research ! How many of them go there ? Significantly less than us still !

Almost 10% of IITians go for fundamental research. And research output has been increasing in IITs and IISc Bangalore for several years now. Which is why I think Smriti Irani should be sacked, for interference in these institutions. In most engineering and science fields Indians comprise almost a quarter of the PhD population. Problem is, most do not return, and that's where the real brain drain is taking place.