We are here to stay and fight: PMLN to "....."

[Path-Finder]

doctor adnan is not a convicted prisoner, neither myriams daughter they r free to travel, even to moon,

yes zati malij and zati merasi same thing. but how are plates and dongay?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

The dominance of the Pakistani military over the rest of the state, and it's pervasiveness in other aspects of life are in no way comparable to most other countries in the world. Pak army and its related industries, their subsidiaries, real estate, retired staff etc, if they were to form a conglomerate, it'd be the biggest company in Pakistan, whether that's market cap, no. of staff, revenue, land usage etc. Some of this might be reasonable, but a lot of it blatant excesses, a culture of entitlement at public expense that started in the Ayub era and has only accelerated since. One day this issue will have to be addressed.

And yeah, for sure abroad people who have served are often given preference or special concessions in lieu of for example extra years of on the job experience, but reserved jobs, I can't think of any, especially nowhere near the scale seen in Pakistan.

Besides, there's another important element here that we're not discussing, that is the political interference and influence exerted on the levers of the state. Asim Bajwa's case post-retirement is a prime example, their guy was made chairman of the CPEC authority last year (had been hearing for a long time the intent to have more army involvement and oversight here), and then SAPM appointment, which I can say with some surety was not IK's own preference, he'd much prefer aggressive style political spokespersons the likes of which he'd previously employed. But I digress, this is just to reinforce the context that makes the comparison between us and most other countries invalid.

When I used to work in a hotel in DMV area 5 years ago, almost every other corporate/federal employee guest were ex-military member because they all used some sort of military/government discount which was only reserved for active members but they would still get it. This is what I have seen from my own eyes that ex-military members dominate top positions. This is not a bad thing at all since they have discipline and integrity to work hard which many civilians lack and thats why they are given preferences.

Please give me example of ex-Pakistani military members dominating Pakistan civil or federal sector?

I had a uber driver once who had this same old argument. I told him that Army/military is not stopping them from anything, but if they dont contribute to the economy then Army/military would have to do something to generate revenue so they can afford these expensive equipment to protect your sorry jealous @sses (I did not say these exact words but after which he shut up).

Also it should be quite evident that majority of Pakistani civilians are kaam choor and in a lot of big corporate and federal positions are influenced with politics.
So I fully support appointing hard working army men taking over EVER SINGLE top position possible.

 

[Silverblaze]

Fight whom?

They are basically signalling to hindus that we are ready to become another awami league. This party needs to be eliminated along with PPP.

 

[Jungibaaz]

When I used to work in a hotel in DMV area 5 years ago, almost every other corporate/federal employee guest were ex-military member because they all used some sort of military/government discount which was only reserved for active members but they would still get it. This is what I have seen from my own eyes that ex-military members dominate top positions. This is not a bad thing at all since they have discipline and integrity to work hard which many civilians lack and thats why they are given preferences.

Please give me example of ex-Pakistani military members dominating Pakistan civil or federal sector?

I had a uber driver once who had this same old argument. I told him that Army/military is not stopping them from anything, but if they dont contribute to the economy then Army/military would have to do something to generate revenue so they can afford these expensive equipment to protect your sorry jealous @sses (I did not say these exact words but after which he shut up).

Also it should be quite evident that majority of Pakistani civilians are kaam choor and in a lot of big corporate and federal positions are influenced with politics.
So I fully support appointing hard working army men taking over EVER SINGLE top position possible.

Look, I'll be fair to the military on that then, perhaps examples are the but the scale surely isn't. But more needs to be said on the context. We're not just talking about hard working retired fauji making it somewhere in the private sector, there's a long tradition in the army of requisitioning public land and prime real estate, then dividing the real estate among themselves, this was later devolved to corp level. Government oversight of the military's financial handling is non-existent in the extent to which the capacity and will exists elsewhere.

Also, this attitude that all civilians are incompetent kaam choor is completely wrong. It's this attitude that reinforces this imbalance in our country. I don't need to talk about how the dynamics of this works economically and demographically, but it's some colonialist mentality that the people you dominate are useless incompetents who are incapable of looking after themselves.

The level of dominance of the military and milbus enterprises in Pakistan is stunning to behold. You live abroad, can you seriously claim you don't notice the striking difference when returning to Pakistan?

Just take a look at Fauji foundation alone, it's hard to find any equivalent in most other countries, fauji fertilizer alone is in the top companies by market capitalisation in Pakistan. Revenues of Fauji foundation are enormous. Then we get to the other list of official and unofficial foundations, and other groups that aren't directly linked but have basically leadership made of ex-military. That includes Shaheen foundation, Bahria foundation, AWT, DHA.
Army welfare trust alone has some 16 subsidiaries including everything from mills to insurance companies. Why on God's green earth would any normal army in a normal functioning republic need faujis to run insurance companies, banks, mills, gas stations and oil companies!?

Even if I were to concede that some of these are well run and that they employ Pakistanis, they pay tax and file etc. Their mere existence is begs the question of why and how, and then comes things like contracts awarded to them. This has been brought up in the past in both the national assembly and supreme court. Then the likes of NLC, Frontier works etc. The latter had a recent example of where it recently won a contract from ECC in oil pipeline, that contract was already earmarked and approved for another company before the new government in 2018, it mysteriously went to FWO without any oversight or government consultation, just like that a government contract worth hundreds of millions USD was switched from ISGS (a company that has experience in building pipelines), to FWO which is run out of GHQ. Even if one stipulates that they would have made a competitive bid, or some other sane reason for awarding the contract, how can that be done with no bidding process, post-approval of another tender, and with no consultation or transparency? Point is, this isn't the first, last or only case. A comprehensive review, public inquiry with transparent process and discussion is needed, including extensive financial audit of all military's finances and related organisations, then and only then can we get a true picture of the extent of their enterprises. And if what you say is true, and they are indeed just another arm of the state, law abiding servants of the people, then they shouldn't obstruct, take deep offence to or forcefully resist such an effort. After all, if there's nothing to hide, surely such a thing would only lend them credibility in place of suspicion?

 

[Turingsage]

And I did not put much effort into finding this. If i had done more it would just further prove that you are uneducated and illiterate.

You made no effort because all that garbage you posted, nowhere does it say the Government job by elected administration is RESERVED for EX-MILITARY personnel.
When you choose to tell tall porky pies at least make sure you have a tiny fragment of evidence to sustain such fanciful notions.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Look, I'll be fair to the military on that then, perhaps examples are the but the scale surely isn't. But more needs to be said on the context. We're not just talking about hard working retired fauji making it somewhere in the private sector, there's a long tradition in the army of requisitioning public land and prime real estate, then dividing the real estate among themselves, this was later devolved to corp level. Government oversight of the military's financial handling is non-existent in the extent to which the capacity and will exists elsewhere.

Also, this attitude that all civilians are incompetent kaam choor is completely wrong. It's this attitude that reinforces this imbalance in our country. I don't need to talk about how the dynamics of this works economically and demographically, but it's some colonialist mentality that the people you dominate are useless incompetents who are incapable of looking after themselves.

The level of dominance of the military and milbus enterprises in Pakistan is stunning to behold. You live abroad, can you seriously claim you don't notice the striking difference when returning to Pakistan?

Just take a look at Fauji foundation alone, it's hard to find any equivalent in most other countries, fauji fertilizer alone is in the top companies by market capitalisation in Pakistan. Revenues of Fauji foundation are enormous. Then we get to the other list of official and unofficial foundations, and other groups that aren't directly linked but have basically leadership made of ex-military. That includes Shaheen foundation, Bahria foundation, AWT, DHA.
Army welfare trust alone has some 16 subsidiaries including everything from mills to insurance companies. Why on God's green earth would any normal army in a normal functioning republic need faujis to run insurance companies, banks, mills, gas stations and oil companies!?

Even if I were to concede that some of these are well run and that they employ Pakistanis, they pay tax and file etc. Their mere existence is begs the question of why and how, and then comes things like contracts awarded to them. This has been brought up in the past in both the national assembly and supreme court. Then the likes of NLC, Frontier works etc. The latter had a recent example of where it recently won a contract from ECC in oil pipeline, that contract was already earmarked and approved for another company before the new government in 2018, it mysteriously went to FWO without any oversight or government consultation, just like that a government contract worth hundreds of millions USD was switched from ISGS (a company that has experience in building pipelines), to FWO which is run out of GHQ. Even if one stipulates that they would have made a competitive bid, or some other sane reason for awarding the contract, how can that be done with no bidding process, post-approval of another tender, and with no consultation or transparency? Point is, this isn't the first, last or only case. A comprehensive review, public inquiry with transparent process and discussion is needed, including extensive financial audit of all military's finances and related organisations, then and only then can we get a true picture of the extent of their enterprises. And if what you say is true, and they are indeed just another arm of the state, law abiding servants of the people, then they shouldn't obstruct, take deep offence to or forcefully resist such an effort. After all, if there's nothing to hide, surely such a thing would only lend them credibility in place of suspicion?

It seems like you ignored my post which has already answered your concerns.

You have to admit that government, top industrial, and economic sectors have been raped by civilians. All your major sugar, wheat, poultry, petroleum etc are run by mafias who have full support of corrupt politicians who themselves are running on foreign agendas to destroy this nation from within. This is not a conspiracy theory anymore but a FACT!
CPEC project may have been executed by PMLN government but only so for their own benefits, kickbacks corruption and perhaps sabotage this entire project with crooks implemented by them.
The only reason why Bajwa has been appointed by PTI is because only this party understands importance of Pakistan army for Pakistan which is a very special situation. Out of all government or civil sectors in Pakistan only military chooses competent civilians who turn out to be great asset where as in civil or other gov sectors employees are chosen on nepotism and not merit.
SO my friend, their is nothing wrong in Bajwa's posting.

Even here in US 29 out of 45 Presidents have served in US military! I bet after IK if PTI wins elections again and they are to bring ex military member for PM position all opposition parties are going ape $hit along with India and Pakistani libturds and NGO crooks where as in US ex-military members are highly regarded when they serve in civil sector. Only in thankless Pakistan are ex-military members in civil sector looked upon in negative way.
If you are not aware of US job market then please do know that EVERY company welcomes veterans where as in Pakistan ex military members are forced to force in civil positions because they are not being given opportunities by civilians like in US. And out of all government employees, military active or rtd members are given MOST privileges like discounts in almost everything like car, house, loans, education and what not.

name me any significant contribution from civilian sector in IT, science, agriculture, manufacturing etc that does not lag behind from rest of competitors even like Bangladesh! Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam have a thriving economy where as Pakistan is struggling to put bread and butter for its people! ARMY is not forcing anyone to not perform! Its a typical false victimhood mentality that when they see someone else do good they get jealous and start blame game to feel better about themselves.
Dont blame civilians lazyness or incompetency on Army because they are being forced to find a way to generate revenue so they can purchase advance weapons to protect and serve this thankless nation who have too much expectation without themself doing anything significant! And why would army not want to see a thriving economy that is only possible by civilians? after all they will get more money to purchase what they need.

Trust me, if rest of the nation is performing even as good as Philipines (which for its population size is doing good) Army would love to get out of such business which should be performed by civilians.

You made no effort because all that garbage you posted, nowhere does it say the Government job by elected administration is RESERVED for EX-MILITARY personnel.

https://www.fedshirevets.gov/job-seekers/the-federal-employment-process/


Even military spouses are given priority


usajobs.gov
Military spouses
If you're a military spouse, you may be eligible to apply using a non-competitive process designed to help you get a job in the federal government.

Eligibility
Federal agencies can use the military spouse non-competitive hiring process to fill positions on either a temporary or permanent basis.

When you choose to tell tall porky pies at least make sure you have a tiny fragment of evidence to sustain such fanciful notions.

 

[ADIL SHERDIL]

1st deal of nawaz was also made possible in GHQ.
mushi stayed for a decade..


2nd deal was made possible in GHQ.

bazz-wala will stay another 3 yrs .


3............ every other dog barking is not allowed.

awaam ko corona seh darna nien , larnan hy? moulana imran khan......


hum nain india seh darna hy-- larna nien --------- the kings maker party

i didn't. He is no leader thats what i am saying he is just a thug/thieve/robber. He and likes of him have damaged Pakistan more than any foreign enemy he should be called as such.
Still people are talking about what a great leader he was and how much has he served the nation. I have no idea why he is still called a leader when the courts have given the decision that he is a culprit.



u forgot 25 billion $$$$$ loot of the king,s party

 

[Baghial]

yes zati malij and zati merasi same thing. but how are plates and dongay?

they were attested at the renowened hospital
shaukat khanum doctors panel--------------- dangar doctors?

yasmeen rashid health minister, endorsed the results -------- danger doctor?

cabinet approved , imran khan approved, ..........COUTS APPROVED. UK APPROVED. CHINA APPROVED, USA APPROVED. ABABS APPROVED..



GHQ APPROVED, GENERALS APPROVED, ISI APPROVED


ONLY THE HONEST , HARWORKING GOD FEARING AWAAM OF PAKISTAN DID,T APPROVE


HOW MANY LAAANATS SHALL THEY RECIEVE?


NOW ALL OF THES MUNAFIS ARE BLAMING, EACH OTHERS

NAWAZ SHARIF IN LONDON
IS
WIN WIN
FOR IMRANA BAJI OF GHQ..

 

[Path-Finder]

they were attested at the renowened hospital
shaukat khanum doctors panel--------------- dangar doctors?

yasmeen rashid health minister, endorsed the results -------- danger doctor?

cabinet approved , imran khan approved, ..........COUTS APPROVED. UK APPROVED. CHINA APPROVED, USA APPROVED. ABABS APPROVED..



GHQ APPROVED, GENERALS APPROVED, ISI APPROVED


ONLY THE HONEST , HARWORKING GOD FEARING AWAAM OF PAKISTAN DID,T APPROVE


HOW MANY LAAANATS SHALL THEY RECIEVE?


NOW ALL OF THES MUNAFIS ARE BLAMING, EACH OTHERS

NAWAZ SHARIF IN LONDON
IS
WIN WIN
FOR IMRANA BAJI OF GHQ..

Do you suffer from mental health problems?

 

[Syed1.]

Do you suffer from mental health problems?

I feel the same way about the poster you quoted.

 

[Path-Finder]

I feel the same way about the poster you quoted.

unfortunately alot of people are suffering mental health problems, 2 of my neighbours have lost the plot. that is just the tip of the iceberg and problem is much greater.

 

[Jungibaaz]

It seems like you ignored my post which has already answered your concerns.

I’ve not ignored it, in fact, for your sake I’ve just read through our whole convo again. Including this post for anything explicitly you might state that I’ve ignored or missed. I think you are misunderstanding my opposed viewpoint as somehow ignoring your arguments, but you can clarify where you think I’ve been ignoring that would be helpful. It seems to me we had two streams of debate, one on ex-military preference/reservation. I already conceded that some form of this does exist in varying degrees abroad, perhaps more so where you are in the US, but I still contend that the scale anywhere is nowhere comparable to Pakistan. And again, I’ll belabor the point that living in countries abroad and having been around, Pakistan is indeed a big exception.

The second and larger stream of debate is about the broader context of army's role in politics and economics, along with statecraft. Then I responded on the discussion of civilian competency used as a cover for army excess, I’ve already shared my opinions of this concept. So please tell me what exactly has been missed? This isn’t confrontational, I'd genuinely want to know, since we are both taking time and courtesy to write lengthy replies, so that I can address it. Thanks.

You have to admit that government, top industrial, and economic sectors have been raped by civilians. All your major sugar, wheat, poultry, petroleum etc are run by mafias who have full support of corrupt politicians who themselves are running on foreign agendas to destroy this nation from within. This is not a conspiracy theory anymore but a FACT!

Sure, I admit it. Plenty of corrupt and elite civilians are busy capturing abnormal returns from all markets. But this is a reflection of Pakistan as a country, it’s not as if Pak fauj somehow is a force we recruit from Mars and not our own people. History is full of examples of corrupt dictators, and I already gave you a plethora of industries and enterprises run directly or indirectly by the army and ex-army. As for corruption, every single acre of land acquired for real estate at public expense can be considered an excess. But surely it verges on blatant corruption on the scale it has been in Pakistan. And I’ve already mentioned the scale of Pakistan army’s commercial footprint, if we’re saying that our economy suffers corruption broadly speaking, a significant chunk of said economy is commercially linked to the army and its enterprises. I already gave you examples of blatant corruption in awarding contracts to army enterprises despite no prior experience and with no process. Other examples exist of poor farmers being forcibly evicted from land, it happens with civilians like Malik Riaz, but also happens with army projects. There was also a recent case in Okara where it was the army. Then there’s Faziya scheme, investors were basically defrauded, no land was purchased but investors lost money all the same. etc. etc. Examples are endless and there are hundreds of cases against officers. As for history, I don’t need to wax lyrical about the corruption of the army during Ayub era. He was a general, but he raped Pakistan financially as much as any civilian could manage, the difference is, he also destroyed the polity in the process, causing irreparable damage, and did so without no legitimacy

Note: I am not arguing that army is more corrupt than civilians. If anything, some of them are less corrupt due to altruistic ideals and code of conduct, internal accountability. But that’s not to say that this should be used as an excuse for their own excesses, corruption and it should no be used as a part of a narrative against civilians to justify the perks they've built up for themsleves.

The only reason why Bajwa has been appointed by PTI is because only this party understands importance of Pakistan army for Pakistan which is a very special situation. Out of all government or civil sectors in Pakistan only military chooses competent civilians who turn out to be great asset where as in civil or other gov sectors employees are chosen on nepotism and not merit.
SO my friend, their is nothing wrong in Bajwa's posting.

Incorrect assessment in my opinion, you don't have to take my word for it of course as I can't offer any evidence. But Bajwa's prior appointment both as chairman of the CPEC authority, and now SAPM, these were GHQ's wishes, not IK's. I know this for a fact. And on the latter, like I said, PM much prefers one of his own spokespersons to give the party narrative and to defend the government/return fire on opposition, this job is being carried out well by PTI's own Shibli Faraz. Meanwhile GHQ has now got one of their own guys sitting in cabinet meetings now. Plus one to them for knowing better than anyone in Pakistan how to pull the levers of the state.

Even here in US 29 out of 45 Presidents have served in US military! I bet after IK if PTI wins elections again and they are to bring ex military member for PM position all opposition parties are going ape $hit along with India and Pakistani libturds and NGO crooks where as in US ex-military members are highly regarded when they serve in civil sector. Only in thankless Pakistan are ex-military members in civil sector looked upon in negative way.

There's a big difference between influencing politics, capturing large portions of industry, building the largest army run conglomerate in the country, running dictatorships post-overthrowing governments and... on the other hand just having a strong military presence and identity in culture in the political arena. In the US, the latter takes a legitimate and constitutional route. You know being an American how Americans love their constitution, especially military vets. Meanwhile our army leaders have said in the past that our constitution is just a piece of paper, to be torn up at a whim, or thrown in the dustbin.

And I won't go to deep into the assessing the failings of civilians, they're a complex group, they're not some borg like entity rank incompetents and corrupt people. This idea that they are all a bunch of useless, jaahil, corrupt and incompetents that can't run their own affairs, and they need army to come capture enterprise, win government contracts, build colonies on public prime real estate etc. I disagree with this sentiment. You obviously think highly of American civilians and their ability to self-govern and run industry. Why this belittling of Pakistanis? I like you, live abroad. And let me tell you, I have the utmost faith in my countrymen, army or civilian.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[mikkix]

Pmln is an elite party and military's blue eyed team ruling under the agenda of establishment. They will come back to rule pakistan again. Military and pmln are lovebirds and they are partner's in crime. 2023 is pmln time. Goodluck.

 

[fisher1]

Pmln is an elite party and military's blue eyed team ruling under the agenda of establishment. They will come back to rule pakistan again. Military and pmln are lovebirds and they are partner's in crime. 2023 is pmln time. Goodluck.

Not if Imran Khan continues to be a good puppet. IK is better puppet than NS, he's handsome, many still believe him.