Wazirstan and Mughal empire

[Samandri]

Bannu was part of Mughal empire?i though KPK was not under mughal.

Bannu, Kohat etc were fully annexed into empire by Aurangzeb, some tribes in the south like Khattaks and Bangash were allies of Mughals and were receiving allowances for their services. In the North, Yousafzais had successfully maintained complete Independence but were finally defeated in 1667 A.D by Aurangzeb. In the Peshawer valley, Khalils , Daudzais, Khattaks etc were supporters of Mughals and provided troops for military expeditions against Yousafzais. Hill tribes like Afridis, Wazirs, Orakzais, Mohamnads etc never owed allegiance to Mughals nor they paid tributes/taxes.
Mughals faced resistance from either Yousfzais and allied Khashi tribes or Hill tribes of present day FATA. The most important tract for mughals was Peshawer-kabul route, the tribes of peripheries were left to themselves but after uprising in 1670s, the plain areas of KPk were completely annexed by aurangzeb , military posts were built and garrisoned with troops in the region . After Aurangzeb death, mughals lost the control over region again.

State and Tribe in Nineteenth-Century Afghanistan: The Reign of Amir Dost ...By Christine Noelle page 164

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Rajputs were the original people who dominated the indian region in the ancient times... they probably are from the same stock but assimilated in the regions they settled in.. the ones in Punjab assimilated here.. the others in their respective regions....For eg... Pashtun soldiers that stayed back in india.. do their descendants look exactly like Pashtuns today? As for inventing titles... well i doubt that happened.. considering there were rajputs even before afghan invasions and so on... so to say that they are fake or that british gave them the Rajput title is total BS.

No they werent.

 

[ghoul]

Wow never knew about that, so this rajput origin theory is not limited to punjabi tribes. And rajput is just a title not race, i guess if pashtuns converted to hinduism some 800 years ago instead of Islam then today they would be considered rajputs and kashtriyas.

Punjabi ''rajputs'' have nothing to do with Rajasthan, maybe this make them fake ones. But few tribes like Bhattis and some others were mostly knows as rajputs. Because real rajputs are only supposed to come from Rajasthan or have ancestry from Rajasthan rajputs in last 800-900 years when this title started to be used.

This also most likely make 90% of Indian rajputs as not real because they mostly live outside Rajasthan.

There is no such thing as fake lol. It's a major myth that rajputs all came from Rajasthan. One of the oldest rajput lineage is the Katoch of Shimla, Himachal Pradesh. The Katoch of Himachal were mentioned even by Alexander the great's historian, and were mentioned even in Mahabharat.

As for the white hun origin of some rajputs; there are three divisions in rajputs; Agnivanshi, Chandravanshi and Suryavanshi. The Agnivanshi rajputs of Rajasthan were said to be non-rajput first but then became rajput after a fire sacrifice on mount abbu. Famous agnivanshi clans are Chauhans and Panhwar. The suryanvanshi and chandravanshi clans are said to be local descendants of the vedic indo-aryan tribes, except for the bhattis, who I think are descended from scythian settlers in Punjab, as they claim descent from Raja Salivahan of Sialkot, who is a mythical king in Punjabi folklore and thought to be a scythian.

As for a Rajasthani connection, well, most rajputs in Punjab are linked with them. You see the Tiwanas and Sials of Jhang and Khushab claim descent from the agnivanshi panhwars of rajasthan. The Jodhra Maliks of Pindigheb, who are considered to be the highest born clan there more or less claim to be descended from the Chauhan rajputs of delhi and rajasthan. Notable clans such as Alpial, Manj, Noon, Wattoo etc are all sub-castes of Bhatti, who also have a link with Rajasthan, where Jaisalmer was a 15 gun salute state ruled by rajasthani bhatis.

As for Potohari rajputs, well most of us have ancient links with rajasthan and jammu+himachal. Most of the local rajput clans claim a panhwar origin. Some famous clans such as the Mair Minhas of Chakwal claim descent from Jamwal Dogras(who are called "manhas"). Interestingly, the dogra jamwal clan, from which the royal family of Kashmir descends claims descent from the Kachhwaha royal house of Rajasthan. The Chibs of Bhimber, Mirpur and Gujrat claim descent from the Katoch of Kangra, Himachal Pradesh.

The only rajput clans which can be considered truly local are the Janjuas(including the famous Khakha rajputs of Muzaffarabad) and Jarrals of Rajouri; both of whom claim descent from pandavas of Mahabharat, who settled in Potohar region.

My point is that most of us have origins in Rajasthan, Jammu and Himachal Pradesh. I will make a thread dedicated to Rajputs in the near future.

 

[haviZsultan]

Bannu was part of Mughal empire?i though KPK was not under mughal.

It was under mughals during time of Babur. Babur ruled the Kingdom of Kabul. He was timurid from fathers side and mongol from the mothers side.

 

[dil_dil]

There is no such thing as fake lol. It's a major myth that rajputs all came from Rajasthan. One of the oldest rajput lineage is the Katoch of Shimla, Himachal Pradesh. The Katoch of Himachal were mentioned even by Alexander the great's historian, and were mentioned even in Mahabharat.

As for the white hun origin of some rajputs; there are three divisions in rajputs; Agnivanshi, Chandravanshi and Suryavanshi. The Agnivanshi rajputs of Rajasthan were said to be non-rajput first but then became rajput after a fire sacrifice on mount abbu. Famous agnivanshi clans are Chauhans and Panhwar. The suryanvanshi and chandravanshi clans are said to be local descendants of the vedic indo-aryan tribes, except for the bhattis, who I think are descended from scythian settlers in Punjab, as they claim descent from Raja Salivahan of Sialkot, who is a mythical king in Punjabi folklore and thought to be a scythian.

As for a Rajasthani connection, well, most rajputs in Punjab are linked with them. You see the Tiwanas and Sials of Jhang and Khushab claim descent from the agnivanshi panhwars of rajasthan. The Jodhra Maliks of Pindigheb, who are considered to be the highest born clan there more or less claim to be descended from the Chauhan rajputs of delhi and rajasthan. Notable clans such as Alpial, Manj, Noon, Wattoo etc are all sub-castes of Bhatti, who also have a link with Rajasthan, where Jaisalmer was a 15 gun salute state ruled by rajasthani bhatis.

As for Potohari rajputs, well most of us have ancient links with rajasthan and jammu+himachal. Most of the local rajput clans claim a panhwar origin. Some famous clans such as the Mair Minhas of Chakwal claim descent from Jamwal Dogras(who are called "manhas"). Interestingly, the dogra jamwal clan, from which the royal family of Kashmir descends claims descent from the Kachhwaha royal house of Rajasthan. The Chibs of Bhimber, Mirpur and Gujrat claim descent from the Katoch of Kangra, Himachal Pradesh.

The only rajput clans which can be considered truly local are the Janjuas(including the famous Khakha rajputs of Muzaffarabad) and Jarrals of Rajouri; both of whom claim descent from pandavas of Mahabharat, who settled in Potohar region.

My point is that most of us have origins in Rajasthan, Jammu and Himachal Pradesh. I will make a thread dedicated to Rajputs in the near future.

British treated rajput as race and tried to connect them with Rajasthan tribes/clans. Rajasthani rajputs population is 5-6 million or just 7-8% of Rajasthan population. But overall there are 45+ million or more rajputs in all over India. In fact according to British census there are more rajputs in Pakistan then in Rajasthan.

A part from tribe like Bhattis in central punjab or Potohari tribes (potohari tribes mostly have connection with rajputs in Jammu and Himachel instead of Rajasthan) as you said.

Rest are are just mythical claims, only found in sources written by British when it comes to punjabi tribes. Rajput was just a title, usually given by Brahmins.

 

[ghoul]

British treated rajput as race and tried to connect them with Rajasthan tribes/clans. Rajasthani rajputs population is 5-6 million or just 7-8% of Rajasthan population. But overall there are 45+ million or more rajputs in all over India. In fact according to British census there are more rajputs in Pakistan then in Rajasthan.

A part from tribe like Bhattis in central punjab or Potohari tribes (potohari tribes mostly have connection with rajputs in Jammu and Himachel instead of Rajasthan) as you said.

Rest are are just mythical claims, only found in sources written by British when it comes to punjabi tribes. Rajput was just a title, usually given by Brahmins.

A number of Pahari-Potohari tribes have a rajasthani origin. They include Hon, Sohlan, Narma and Jodhra. These clan histories that gora people compiled were asked from the mussalis who keep records. They must have migrated so long ago that they lost all their rajasthani appearance. Or maybe rajasthanis mixed with bhils as you say. Though some Rajasthani rajputs show very light features.

The Chibs and Manhas of Potohar/AJK are Dogras. They both moved in fairly recently. Regardless, they're all Potohari now.

Banda singh the great warrior was not a punjabi he was a Dogra born in Poonch (J&K) another great warrior born at the same place is me .

If he was from Poonch, then he wasn't really a dogra per say. Poonchis speak Pahari language. Although I think Pahari, Potohari, Dogri and Kangri belong to the same dialect continuum.

 

[dil_dil]

A number of Pahari-Potohari tribes have a rajasthani origin. They include Hon, Sohlan, Narma and Jodhra. These clan histories that gora people compiled were asked from the mussalis who keep records. They must have migrated so long ago that they lost all their rajasthani appearance. Or maybe rajasthanis mixed with bhils as you say. Though some Rajasthani rajputs show very light features.

The Chibs and Manhas of Potohar/AJK are Dogras. They both moved in fairly recently. Regardless, they're all Potohari now.



If he was from Poonch, then he wasn't really a dogra per say. Poonchis speak Pahari language. Although I think Pahari, Potohari, Dogri and Kangri belong to the same dialect continuum.

Yes is possible as i said that few tribes indeed have some connection with Rajasthan. But goras used to give 99% agriculture tribes (basically non-dalit or non kami tribes) a rajput origin. Most of these tribes do not even identify as jats or rajputs right now but just as their own qoum/tribe in Punjab.

Bahadur singh come up as brahmin, possibly moyhal going by birth place?

 

[Jaggu]

There is no such thing as fake lol. It's a major myth that rajputs all came from Rajasthan. One of the oldest rajput lineage is the Katoch of Shimla, Himachal Pradesh. The Katoch of Himachal were mentioned even by Alexander the great's historian, and were mentioned even in Mahabharat.

As for the white hun origin of some rajputs; there are three divisions in rajputs; Agnivanshi, Chandravanshi and Suryavanshi. The Agnivanshi rajputs of Rajasthan were said to be non-rajput first but then became rajput after a fire sacrifice on mount abbu. Famous agnivanshi clans are Chauhans and Panhwar. The suryanvanshi and chandravanshi clans are said to be local descendants of the vedic indo-aryan tribes, except for the bhattis, who I think are descended from scythian settlers in Punjab, as they claim descent from Raja Salivahan of Sialkot, who is a mythical king in Punjabi folklore and thought to be a scythian.

As for a Rajasthani connection, well, most rajputs in Punjab are linked with them. You see the Tiwanas and Sials of Jhang and Khushab claim descent from the agnivanshi panhwars of rajasthan. The Jodhra Maliks of Pindigheb, who are considered to be the highest born clan there more or less claim to be descended from the Chauhan rajputs of delhi and rajasthan. Notable clans such as Alpial, Manj, Noon, Wattoo etc are all sub-castes of Bhatti, who also have a link with Rajasthan, where Jaisalmer was a 15 gun salute state ruled by rajasthani bhatis.

As for Potohari rajputs, well most of us have ancient links with rajasthan and jammu+himachal. Most of the local rajput clans claim a panhwar origin. Some famous clans such as the Mair Minhas of Chakwal claim descent from Jamwal Dogras(who are called "manhas"). Interestingly, the dogra jamwal clan, from which the royal family of Kashmir descends claims descent from the Kachhwaha royal house of Rajasthan. The Chibs of Bhimber, Mirpur and Gujrat claim descent from the Katoch of Kangra, Himachal Pradesh.

The only rajput clans which can be considered truly local are the Janjuas(including the famous Khakha rajputs of Muzaffarabad) and Jarrals of Rajouri; both of whom claim descent from pandavas of Mahabharat, who settled in Potohar region.

My point is that most of us have origins in Rajasthan, Jammu and Himachal Pradesh. I will make a thread dedicated to Rajputs in the near future.

As always, great post Ghoul. Interesting info.

 

[ghoul]

As always, great post Ghoul. Interesting info.

Thanks for your appreciation.

Another thing to add: the agnivanshi, also called agnikunda, branch of rajputs is thought to be of white hun origin. The other branches are of local vedic origin. Presently, most rajput branches are more or less mixed.

 

[Sam_Bajwa]

If he was from Poonch, then he wasn't really a dogra per say. Poonchis speak Pahari language. Although I think Pahari, Potohari, Dogri and Kangri belong to the same dialect continuum.

He was of the minhas clan and minhas of the Jammu region are dogras .
In India Dogra and pahari are synonymous jammu Rajputs prefer to call themselves dogras where as rajputs of himachal prefer to Call themselves pahari but I think using Dogra for them is not wrong.

Don't know about potohari but dogri and pahari of himachal are almost similar

Like miki ni pata kuth jayi rhya of Jammu
Becomes mijo ni pata Kihan jayi rihya in himachal

So everybody in himachal understands the folk songs like dhol sipahiya dogaria of Jammu and everyone in Jammu understands faujiya mereya ho paye ja ghare nu fera of himachal

Himachali pahari is further divided kangri mandyali kinnauri lahauli and so on
Chamba pahari is exactly similar to Jammu dogri
Kinnauri and lahauli are very different

The tribes of himachal and Jammu surely came from central india we will discuss when you open a separate thread .