Wasted youth: Reflections on the British Council report

[ambidex]

if that is so then why they feel aliens and unwanted and feared and scared whenever there is any bomb blast in India?

why they have this feeling of being considered as traitors due to their religion?

Thanks to muslims being involved directly or indirectly in many conflicts with different civilizations on global land scape. This phenomenon is not an exception for Indian muslims. Don't try to make that generalization only for indian muslims. Come out of pakistan and see every where else.

I will not tell you here what australian muslims feel when there is blast eleswhere on globe.

The only problem with people like you is that your are living in your alike religion people. You guys can not live with another belives when in majority.

Pakistan is not world ''Ms.Jana'' and world is not pakistan.

Regards

 

[pakomar]

Thanks to muslims being involved directly or indirectly in many conflicts with different civilizations on global land scape. This phenomenon is not an exception for Indian muslims. Don't try to make that generalization only for indian muslims. Come out of pakistan and see every where else.

I will not tell you here what australian muslims feel when there is blast eleswhere on globe.

The only problem with people like you is that your are living in your alike religion people. You guys can not live with another belives when in majority.

Pakistan is not world ''Ms.Jana'' and world is not pakistan.

Regards

what about the Christians involved in 1887 when they over throw Muslim thorn and what about world war 2 when Christians are involved in whole conflict..

 

[ambidex]

what about the Christians involved in 1887 when they over throw Muslim thorn and what about world war 2 when Christians are involved in whole conflict..

PakOmar: Your points are more or less valid.

But my assertion was to answer ''Jana''. Without knowing the root cause of such problems we are simply generalizing one nation who is your neighbour and enemy.

By blaming each other we will not be able to address this kind of Alien feeling. Today my Muslim friends from different parts of world (you name it) feel same kind of fear and irritability when there is any terrorist attack.

One of my senior on morning round with me will pick up news paper only to see such news and will discuss with me for an appropriate answer when some cunning gora will ask him about that incident where Muslims were involved.

Same thing i do when there is any news about India good or bad. For me it is always easy to defend or criticize India but for him it a always a big challenge to convince a non believer.

For a normal Pakistani as they learn Islam, it is easier to understand complexities of their religion and culture. But as i said World is not Pakistan and when we are exposed to like and dislikes of world either we enact like a hypocrite, ignorant or agitate or hesitate to be involve or contribute.

This the root cause of every such issue a normal intellectual Muslim facing today everywhere.

Being a Muslim first is not a bad thing or i can say can't be a bad thing. But to make other understand will always be a Impossible effort.
Either Muslims should start living in a vacuum of contemporary puristic Islam, or rather crying foul and blaming others Muslims should lead by examples and follow the great directions of "Koran" where Muslims are directed to live in peace with even non believers and cooperate.

Now you will argue that it is not Muslims fault and Muslims have always cooperated. But i have seen the way most the Pakistanis defend every single issue; is immature and debatable.
I am not saying Indians or chines are an exception for the same but they have no such liability to defend their religion but nation.

Your arguments can only be justified to a believer but a non believer wont be able to understand.
A nation who do not trust any one but its army can easily be thrust upon a unwanted war or be easily manipulated. Why Pakistani youth do not trust the system is because of what he is learning from the schools. The course of modern age demanding more from him.
Last but not least:
''It is easier to disorganize organised/uniform but impossible to disorganize already disorganized''.
I hope you will understand. I will love to see Pakistan growing fast being Muslim first than Pakistani first, but one must be ready to pay the prize than blaming others.

 

[Kasrkin]

It is not surprising that most of these young people call themselves Muslims first and Pakistani second. Islam is central to a Muslim's psychology, atleast in Pakistan. We're taught about Islam from the very first day we start to talk and understand, everything we do or don't do is basically linked to Islamic customs. So what I'm saying is that even though these people are patriotic Pakistanis, it would take exceptional courage for anyone of them to designate Islam a secondary status in front of anything. It is not dangerous really and does not translate into support for terrorists or extremists.

 

[Moorkh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
Let me understand this clearly, the opening article states that only one out of 6 Pakistanis think of themselves as Pakistani first and then Muslim, and all of you (except Developereo) are okay with this? Your religious identity supersedes your national identity? What?!!!

I thought it was an exaggeration/propaganda on the part of the opening article, clearly i was wrong.

As Rajeev as pointed out, this is pretty much a medieval attitude. Citizens of a nation state cannot think like this and expect to stay united.

From Developereo -
We are talking about PAKISTAN here, which has 97% Muslim population so how can we not be united if we say we are Muslims first, ALMOST ALL OF PAKISTANIS ARE MUSLIMS and non-muslims dont make a majority in any place in Pakistan.

another way to look at it is,

6/7 consider themselves muslims before pakistanis.

this means they feel greater kinship towards other muslims, than non muslims living in pakistan. yes 97% of the population in pakistan may be muslim but the very fact that the boundaries of the country mean less to you than the religion of the people says a lot.

if 97% people consider themselves muslims, they would see the other 3% as aliens. doesnt say much for a united pakistan. the 6/7 will be more willing to help a palestinian than some non muslim in pakistan or just across the border(not necessacirily the indian one). who would you choose to help, a non believing chinese or a palestinian muslim.

since ur a muslim first u shud help the muslim,

china has helped pakistan not "muslims" so a pakistani would help a chinese over a muslim.

(i dont want to say the chinese need help or anything, its just an example to prove the point)

 

[pakomar]

PakOmar: Your points are more or less valid.

But my assertion was to answer ''Jana''. Without knowing the root cause of such problems we are simply generalizing one nation who is your neighbour and enemy.

By blaming each other we will not be able to address this kind of Alien feeling. Today my Muslim friends from different parts of world (you name it) feel same kind of fear and irritability when there is any terrorist attack.

One of my senior on morning round with me will pick up news paper only to see such news and will discuss with me for an appropriate answer when some cunning gora will ask him about that incident where Muslims were involved.

Same thing i do when there is any news about India good or bad. For me it is always easy to defend or criticize India but for him it a always a big challenge to convince a non believer.

For a normal Pakistani as they learn Islam, it is easier to understand complexities of their religion and culture. But as i said World is not Pakistan and when we are exposed to like and dislikes of world either we enact like a hypocrite or agitate or hesitate to be involve or contribute.

This the root cause of every normal intellectual Muslim today.

Being a Muslim first is not a bad thing or i can say can't be a bad thing. But to make other understand will always be a Impossible effort.
Either Muslims should start living in a vacuum of contemporary puristic Islam, or rather crying foul and blaming others Muslims should lead by examples and follow the great directions of "Koran" where Muslims are directed to live in peace with even non believers and cooperate.

Now you will argue that it is not Muslims fault and muslims have always cooperated. But i have seen the way most the pakistanis defend every single issue; is immature and debatable.
I am not saying Indians or chines are an exception for the same but they have no such liability to defend their religion but nation.

Your arguments can only be justified to a believer but a non believer wont be able to understand.
A nation who do not trust any one but its army can easily be thrust upon a unwanted war or be easily manipulated. Why Pakistani youth do not trust the system is because fo what he is learning from the schools. The course of modren age demanding more from him.
Last but not least:
''It is easier to disorganize organised/uniform but impossible to disorganize already disorganized''.
I hope you will understand. I will love to see Pakistan growing fast being Muslim first than Pakistani first, but one must be ready to pay the prize than blaming others.

you can n t blame Muslims for all the terror attacks ... no Muslim invalid any country... its all game by cia to have bases in the region .
if you see it closely it is war against Muslims only Muslim country are attack and it become clear when US attack Iraq without any reason.
why always Muslim pay price of US mistakes why????

 

[Seadog1]

you can n t blame Muslims for all the terror attacks ... no Muslim invalid any country... its all game by cia to have bases in the region .
if you see it closely it is war against Muslims only Muslim country are attack and it become clear when US attack Iraq without any reason.
why always Muslim pay price of US mistakes why????

Last 3 days:
2009.11.24 (Khost, Afghanistan) - Four children are blown to bits when Islamic fundamentalists set off a roadside bomb next to a family vehicle.
2009.11.24 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Two Sunni imams are assassinated in separate bomb attacks.
2009.11.24 (Khost, Afghanistan) - Two women are among four civilians shot to death at point-blank range by Mujahideen.
2009.11.22 (Pattani, Thailand) - A female Buddhist teacher is gunned down in front of her home by Islamic militants.
2009.11.22 (Landikotal, Afghanistan) - The Taliban mortar a crowded bazaar, killing at least six civilians.
2009.11.22 (Mosul, Iraq) - A child is incinerated in a thermal bomb attack by Muslim terrorists

over 14000 such attacks since 911.

 

[Developereo]

We are talking about PAKISTAN here, which has 97% Muslim population so how can we not be united if we say we are Muslims first, ALMOST ALL OF PAKISTANIS ARE MUSLIMS and non-muslims dont make a majority in any place in Pakistan.

We should aim for a Pakistan where a Christian Pakistani or a Parsi Pakistani or a Hindu Pakistani or a Sikh Pakistani feels just as welcome in their homeland as a Muslim Pakistani.

The unqualified loyalty of every Pakistani citizen should be to the State of Pakistan first and foremost.

Muhammad Ali Jinnah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.
[...]
You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State.
[...]
We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State.
[...]
in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.

Jinnah, 11th August 1947 - presiding over the constituent assembly.

 

[RiazHaq]

The fact is that Pakistan's “democratic" leaders are so thoroughly corrupt that they can be bought for a fistful of dollars by any body, including the sworn enemies of Pakistan. The kind of stability that will come from these people will only encourage more crime by politicians and growing cynicism among the suffering people of Pakistan, as born out by a recent British Council survey that shows 80% of Pakistani youth are pessimistic about their future.

Haq's Musings: NRO, Corruption and Democracy in South Asia

 

[Developereo]

Thanks to muslims being involved directly or indirectly in many conflicts with different civilizations on global land scape.

The anti-Muslim media has a double standard for reporting any conflict involving Muslims. When Muslims are the majority, they are accused of dominating and oppressing a non-Muslim minority. When Muslims are the minority, they are separatist, terrorist, insurgents who are unable to integrate into their host country.

When Muslims kill civilians, they are called terrorists. When the Thai/Philippine/Burmese/Nigerian/Israeli/Russian/etc. police and military kill Muslim civilians, the victims are conveniently dismissed as terrorists or militants.

Last 3 days:
2009.11.24 (Khost, Afghanistan) - Four children are blown to bits when Islamic fundamentalists set off a roadside bomb next to a family vehicle.
2009.11.24 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Two Sunni imams are assassinated in separate bomb attacks.
2009.11.24 (Khost, Afghanistan) - Two women are among four civilians shot to death at point-blank range by Mujahideen.
2009.11.22 (Pattani, Thailand) - A female Buddhist teacher is gunned down in front of her home by Islamic militants.
2009.11.22 (Landikotal, Afghanistan) - The Taliban mortar a crowded bazaar, killing at least six civilians.
2009.11.22 (Mosul, Iraq) - A child is incinerated in a thermal bomb attack by Muslim terrorists

over 14000 such attacks since 911.

Iraq War Facts, Statistics as of November 20, 2009 - Iraq War Casualties, Spending, Iraqi Quality of Life

A UN issued report dated Sept 20, 2006 stating that Iraqi civilian casualties have been significantly under-reported. Casualties are reported at 50,000 to over 100,000, but may be much higher. Some informed estimates place Iraqi civilian casualities at over 600,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001–present)

Civilians killed by insurgents: 3,419 - 4,969
Civilians killed by US/NATO: 8,436 - 28,028

This is not counting the Muslim civilians killed by police/military in various countries and dismissed as 'militants' or 'terrorists'.

 

[pakomar]

Last 3 days:
2009.11.24 (Khost, Afghanistan) - Four children are blown to bits when Islamic fundamentalists set off a roadside bomb next to a family vehicle.
2009.11.24 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Two Sunni imams are assassinated in separate bomb attacks.
2009.11.24 (Khost, Afghanistan) - Two women are among four civilians shot to death at point-blank range by Mujahideen.
2009.11.22 (Pattani, Thailand) - A female Buddhist teacher is gunned down in front of her home by Islamic militants.
2009.11.22 (Landikotal, Afghanistan) - The Taliban mortar a crowded bazaar, killing at least six civilians.
2009.11.22 (Mosul, Iraq) - A child is incinerated in a thermal bomb attack by Muslim terrorists

over 14000 such attacks since 911.

and how many incidents when US soldiers kill civilians on purpose not by accident only few are reported and thousands are not.

 

[ambidex]

you can n t blame Muslims for all the terror attacks ... no Muslim invalid any country... its all game by cia to have bases in the region .
if you see it closely it is war against Muslims only Muslim country are attack and it become clear when US attack Iraq without any reason.
why always Muslim pay price of US mistakes why????

''Choices we made govern and dictate the life we live''.

The whole Muslim world was Pro west in past or i can say middle east was under the influence of British empire and was comfortable with it (not like sub continent). After when British left, there was a great vacuum and countries like Iraq, Iran Egypt found new intruder floating in through Red Sea. A nation with aspirations of world dominance eyeing oil rich territories was again welcomed by everyone for their own reasons. Enmity with each other was one of the reason and US was having heap to offer for the same.
By the course of time nations like Iraq and Iran became reluctant to entertain US aspiration. After Rusian left afghnistan the 'Oil' was USA's.
[Rant Alert] After cold war US felt to improve its ratings and consulted its human resource department. US was advised to teach lessons of morality to rest of the world and mend those who were unfriendly.

In this equation Pakistan was always comfortable with US's so called oppression on Muslim world. Till this date Pakistan is the biggest ally ever, assisting such massive operations of NATO, US and allies, even much bigger and costlier than world war II.

What you are crying here blaming CIA etc is called as misinformation at its peak.
The only solution to your own lost morality and rationality was if Muslim world could have done simple calculations to stay neutral or could have refused US's offers politely when many Muslim nations were dying to fight with each other and Pakistan with India.

The second simple miscalculation Muslim world including Pakistan is doing by fighting against bigger or powerfull nations for sake of religion when there is always an opportunity to compromise to live peacefully.

The third miscalculation now recently Muslim world including people of Pakistan and ultimately Pakistan will do is by jeopardising its friendship with US.

Nature loves symmetry, Evil or angel you have to be a party with your mighty friend. This is a simple law of nature also you have to avoid enmity with your bigger neighbours.
This is simple mathematics, do some calculations you will find the answer. If you are ready to pay the price of enmity then its your choice.
Regards.

 

[Seadog1]

and how many incidents when US soldiers kill civilians on purpose not by accident only few are reported and thousands are not.

2009.11.26 (Yala, Thailand) - Islamists shoot a 62-year-old civilian to death as he is riding a motorbike.
2009.11.26 (Makhachkala, Dagestan) - A police officer is gunned down by Muslim militants.
2009.11.25 (Karbala, Iraq) - Five people are murdered by a brutal double bombing at a restaurant.
2009.11.25 (Tarmiya, Iraq) - A married couple and two daughters are among six innocents slain in a sectarian home invasion.
2009.11.25 (Mogadishu, Somalia) - A civilian is killed when Jihadis throw a grenade into the street.
2009.11.25 (Narathiwat, Thailand) - Islamic gunmen murder a 47-year-old man as he is returning home from a tea shop.

American soldiers are not Muslims they dont kill civilians on purpose, its cowardly, inefficent and unproductive,,,,deliberate murder of civlians is a muslim thing as you can see above.

 

[ahmed_naj]

deliberate murder of civlians is a muslim thing as you can see above

derogatry and ingnorant remark. By your logic if a christian or hindu or a jew commits a murder it automatically become a trait of that religion?

 

[Seadog1]

derogatry and ingnorant remark. By your logic if a christian or hindu or a jew commits a murder it automatically become a trait of that religion?

Think it would depend on the number of murders and for what reason...