Wasted youth: Reflections on the British Council report

[Spring Onion]

The most dangerous thing what I saw in here was that most Pakistanis identifying themselves as Muslims first rather as a Pakistani.

I cannot think of any other place this is happening. Saudis dont do it! The Kuwaitis dont! The Iraqis dont! The Iranians dont! So where did this concept arise?

Not only most Pakistanis but all Muslims are first Muslims and then comes all other titles.

Now please keep your opinion to yourself. We do not see anything dangerous in it.

 

[Spring Onion]

No, but if you have a lot of unemployed young people, violence usually isn't far away.

Especially in a typical third world country with poor law enforcement capability.



Always useful to remember this old post by salman108
Zardari = A Baloch tribe, Feudal to the bone.
Bhutto = Sindhi Feudal
Jatoi = Sindhi Feudal ( at a time Jatoi family had most land in Asia)
Gillani = Feudal from south punjab AND self proclaimed religious leader.
Khakwani = Feudal from south western punjab
Rukun-uddin = South Punjab feudal and self proclaimed blood line holder of saint Rukhundin.
Sharif = Feudals from central punjab.
Balore = Feudal from Peshawar.

I remember reading that somewhere from 75% to 90% of Pakistani parliament are feudals.
?

well quite right.

But Nawaz Shahrif is not Punjabi rather he is a Kashmiri.

Bilour is not from NWFP feudal fmailies. They are not feudal.


But again all of them are civilian dictators and ruling elite which and governing Pakistan is their family business hence this system of democrapy is flawed and a hierarchy in Pakistan. Islam completely rejects hierarchy viz viz governing the state

 

[Seadog1]

Yes many Pakistanis identify themselves as Muslims first and so do some Saudis, Kuwaitis, Iraqis, and Iranians.

We are taught in our religion that as soon as we enter our grave the first question the angel will ask us is our religion. So the only thing that will matter is that we are Muslims and how good of a Muslim we were in our life on earth.

The pull of modernity and reformism is strong for young people, but so is that of tradition and conservatism. This conflict between the two is takeing place in much of the Islamic World,,,,but also in Iran almost to the point of revolution,,,also Turkey and Pakistan....
Islam has weaken to the point that many Islamic Countries have to to punish people with stoneing,, beheading,,,and imprisonment to enforce its religon..such as Blasphemy laws.. Even now Pakistan is one of the Islamic countries behind a United Nation Law makeing it illegal to criticize any religon..and to deprive people of the freedom of speech.

 

[rajeev]

Yes many Pakistanis identify themselves as Muslims first and so do some Saudis, Kuwaitis, Iraqis, and Iranians.

We are taught in our religion that as soon as we enter our grave the first question the angel will ask us is "who is your Lord" and "what is your religion". So the only thing that will matter is that we are Muslims and how good of a Muslim we were in our life on earth.

Some Saudis, Kuwaitis, Iraqis and Iranians do! Not 6/7 of their population do!

To remain a unified country for a long, you need to believe in the concept of Pakistan. That you all are one!

Being Muslim first concept is a medieval concept used at the time of Caliphate for political reasons, just like Romans did when they embraced Christianity, but you know from history that Christianity did not keep the country united. So if 6/7 people in Pakistanis believe that, there would be political tendency to form another Caliphate. That is good and all, but who else would like to join the group?

Do you think Saudis will join, Iranians will join, Iraqis will join, UAE will join, Turkey will join, Sudan will join, Egypt will join, Ethiopia will join?? Which country feels that they want to be united with other Muslim country?

Another thing is that whether establishments wants the same. Saudi King wants to give away his power? or the Iranian Ayatollah ? or the Kurds? or the Turks?

So when neither the establishment in other Muslim countries would join to form a Caliphate nor the people in respective countries see themselves culturally similar or connecting to other Muslim country to form Caliphate, what would this evolution of Pakistanis will turn out to be?

Pakistan does not have the power to take out rest of Muslim countries by force and if neither are going to join, what would vast amount of unemployed Pakistanis do?

They would turn to create suicide bombers for rest of Muslim world to make them forcefully join the so-called Caliphate. The rest of Pakistanis will find their causes with India, US, Israel, China, Europe?

I think the government should get this identity crisis resolved.

 

[Omar1984]

^ hindus are the last people on earth to understand Muslims. hindus believe in reincarnation while Muslims believe in Heaven and Hell.

Dont worry about Pakistan and Pakistanis, we'll be just fine and its not like you care what happens to Pakistan.

Religion pretty much always played an important role in our region.

 

[rajeev]

^ hindus are the last people on earth to understand Muslims. hindus believe in reincarnation while Muslims believe in Heaven and Hell.

Dont worry about Pakistan and Pakistanis, we'll be just fine and its not like you care what happens to Pakistan.

Dont you think Omar that you are agitated with me for some reason? I am agnostic and so I don't believe in religion.

Religion is a concept that has lived its course. It was a way for the man to understand how things worked? why thunder strikes? why people die? how man is special? In 21st century, we have science. I dont want to argue about it more as we are going off topic, but just give it a thought!

Rather than considering a question why a hindu/muslim/christian/jain/bhuddist/jews/parsis would, why cant you see what I am saying to you as a question posed by a human being to another- where does religion come here?

 

[Omar1984]

Dont you think Omar that you are agitated with me for some reason? I am agnostic and I don't believe in religion.

Religion is a concept that has lived its course. It was a way for the man to understand how things worked, why thunder strikes, why people die, how man is special. In 21st century, we have science. I dont want to argue about it more as we are going off topic, but just give it a thought!

Rather than considering a question why a hindu/muslim/christian/jain/bhuddist/jews/parsis would, why cant you see what I am saying to you?

97% of the population in Pakistan are Muslim. Pakistan is an Islamic Republic and it will stay as an Islamic Republic. Islam is taught from elementary school to even graduate school in Pakistan. Even minorities such as Christians and Hindus must learn Islamic studies in school in Pakistan. So if Pakistanis see themselves as Muslims first, then its no big deal to rest of Pakistanis because almost all Pakistanis are already Muslim.

I can see how it'll be a problem in India if an Indian Muslim says he is Muslim first then Indian, then the vast majority of Indians, who are Hindus will not like hearing that, but for us Pakistanis its no big deal when a Pakistani says he is Muslim first because we understand Islam, every Pakistani citizen is taught Islam since a very small age and Pakistan will never be secular...I dont see it ever happening.

 

[rajeev]

97% of the population in Pakistan are Muslim. Pakistan is an Islamic Republic and it will stay as an Islamic Republic. Islam is taught from elementary school to even graduate school in Pakistan. Even minorities such as Christians and Hindus must learn Islamic studies in school in Pakistan. So if Pakistanis see themselves as Muslims first, then its no big deal to rest of Pakistanis because almost all Pakistanis are already Muslim.

I am an India born and raised there. In India, religion is not taught in school. It happens as a teaching from parents and society. Personally, I think religion should never be taught in school because it does not provide the student with any information that is useful.

So even though I disagree with Pakistan's teaching of religion in school, I think that is Pakistanis to decide!

I can see how it'll be a problem in India if an Indian Muslim says he is Muslim first then Indian, then the vast majority of Indians, who are Hindus will not like hearing that, but for us Pakistanis its no big deal when a Pakistani says he is Muslim first because we understand Islam, every Pakistani citizen is taught Islam since a very small age and Pakistan will never be secular...I dont see it ever happening.

Since I was raised in India (Mumbai), I had lot of friends who were Muslims and I can categorically say that all of my friends look among themselves as Indians. Some even joined Indian navy and airforce!

I have seen some videos of Muslims in India who feel that they are Muslims first and Indians later. They are very small in numbers that they dont alarm any one. It is just like the crazy RSS group. Indians as a whole dont buy into those extremes, should I say thankfully!

 

[desiman]

97% of the population in Pakistan are Muslim. Pakistan is an Islamic Republic and it will stay as an Islamic Republic. Islam is taught from elementary school to even graduate school in Pakistan. Even minorities such as Christians and Hindus must learn Islamic studies in school in Pakistan. So if Pakistanis see themselves as Muslims first, then its no big deal to rest of Pakistanis because almost all Pakistanis are already Muslim.

I can see how it'll be a problem in India if an Indian Muslim says he is Muslim first then Indian, then the vast majority of Indians, who are Hindus will not like hearing that, but for us Pakistanis its no big deal when a Pakistani says he is Muslim first because we understand Islam, every Pakistani citizen is taught Islam since a very small age and Pakistan will never be secular...I dont see it ever happening.

Its a problem for sure, and it is the problem thats troubling Pakistan right now. You must identify with your country first and then you religion. By logic you are first born a Pakistani then a muslim. It is because of thinking such as Muslim first that Pakistan is suffering in the hands of extremism today. The youth of Pakistan must get over all this old style thinking and start to identify themselves as Pakistani's first and Muslims second. I am sure most of you wont agree and will find a point to critisize India about something in return but the point here is not to criticize but to find whats going wrong. Religion is to be used for the benefit of humanity but when it starts to take over your thinking is when things go wrong. Country has to be first at any cost only then will the minds and body of all countrymen work together for a better future. You can yourself think and introspect, What has all this muslim first thinking got Pakistan since its independence ? Can you give me one Pakistani achievement other than the nuclear bomb ? If someone can give me a fair answer rather than flaming it would be nice.

 

[desiman]

I am an India born and raised there. In India, religion is not taught in school. It happens as a teaching from parents and society. Personally, I think religion should never be taught in school because it does not provide the student with any information that is useful.

So even though I disagree with Pakistan's teaching of religion in school, I think that is Pakistanis to decide!



Since I was raised in India (Mumbai), I had lot of friends who were Muslims and I can categorically say that all of my friends look among themselves as Indians. Some even joined Indian navy and airforce!

I have seen some videos of Muslims in India who feel that they are Muslims first and Indians later. They are very small in numbers that they dont alarm any one. It is just like the crazy RSS group. Indians as a whole dont buy into those extremes, should I say thankfully!

GREAT POST BRO !!! hope other people also understand the logic

 

[Spring Onion]

Since I was raised in India (Mumbai), I had lot of friends who were Muslims and I can categorically say that all of my friends look among themselves as Indians. Some even joined Indian navy and airforce!

I have seen some videos of Muslims in India who feel that they are Muslims first and Indians later. They are very small in numbers that they dont alarm any one. It is just like the crazy RSS group. Indians as a whole dont buy into those extremes, should I say thankfully!

rajeev i will reply to your first part of the post later. But let me comment on your above statement.

Alot of Muslims in US and other non-Muslim Countries also join and joined forces and other such organisations. They got their citizenship too. Coming to your notion of Indian Muslims consider themselves Indians first and Muslims later, if that is so then why they feel aliens and unwanted and feared and scared whenever there is any bomb blast in India?

why they have this feeling of being considered as traitors due to their religion?

Its another matter that these Indian Muslims are now being forced to prove their loyalties by adopting Hindu rituals and defy their Islamic beliefs.

 

[Seadog1]

rajeev i will reply to your first part of the post later. But let me comment on your above statement.

Alot of Muslims in US and other non-Muslim Countries also join and joined forces and other such organisations. They got their citizenship too. Coming to your notion of Indian Muslims consider themselves Indians first and Muslims later, if that is so then why they feel aliens and unwanted and feared and scared whenever there is any bomb blast in India?

why they have this feeling of being considered as traitors due to their religion?

Its another matter that these Indian Muslims are now being forced to prove their loyalties by adopting Hindu rituals and defy their Islamic beliefs.

Thats no differance between that and what is happeing to Non Muslims in Pakistan.

 

[desiman]

rajeev i will reply to your first part of the post later. But let me comment on your above statement.

Alot of Muslims in US and other non-Muslim Countries also join and joined forces and other such organisations. They got their citizenship too. Coming to your notion of Indian Muslims consider themselves Indians first and Muslims later, if that is so then why they feel aliens and unwanted and feared and scared whenever there is any bomb blast in India?

why they have this feeling of being considered as traitors due to their religion?

Its another matter that these Indian Muslims are now being forced to prove their loyalties by adopting Hindu rituals and defy their Islamic beliefs.

LOL Jana its very easy to hide your own mistake by blaming others specially India, about whom i think Pakistani have more information than about their country. Ok let me clear some VERY HUGE misunderstandings here. Yes there are some parts of India where religious tension exist, but on the other hand we have leaders in every field who are Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, etc etc the list goes on and on. From all the Khans, to our own president to Azem Premji, Indian muslims are by far the most progressive and liberal in the world. If you call participating in the Hindu rituals to be being forced then that means you have no idea what India is. India is not a Islamic republic and not a hindu nation, we live together as Indians. Yes there are problems but we have been able to sort them out peacefully and democratically. As rajeev had said earlier we are not taugh religion in school and all major religious festivals are national holidays including all major Islamic festivals, I dont see Diwali as a holiday in Pakistan ? Please Jana stop criticizing India and introspect about Pakistan first, dont make this another India vs Pakistan thread lol
And just to entertain you please watch this video for summary of what i have said LOL

 

[desiman]

Thats no differance between that and what is happeing to Non Muslims in Pakistan.

Great comment Bro, Pakistan needs people like you

 

[Spring Onion]

Thats no differance between that and what is happeing to Non Muslims in Pakistan.

Not at all. NO bomb blast here in Pakistan is blamed on non-Muslim Pakistanis

Unlike India where Hindu organisations plan bombs and Indian Muslims pay the price