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Was the army ready for war?

fatman17

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Was the army ready for war?

Manoj Joshi

New Delhi, January 17, 2009

The Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy were ready to strike almost immediately after the Mumbai carnage on November 26 — the former activating its forward bases and the latter fuelling its anti-ship missiles.

But, the government stayed its hand when the Indian Army apparently indicated to the government that it might take it several weeks before it could prudently begin the operations.

Sources said that the Army apparently lacked adequate stocks of ammunition as well as key elements of artillery and other equipment.

This was confirmed by a well-connected retired general who said, “The 400-odd Bofors guns we bought in the 1980s are falling apart for want of spares, the (600-odd) Shilka anti-aircraft cannon are in desperate need of upgradation. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.” He added that India’s numerically vast tank fleet is in poor shape, and it did not have any mobile artillery to speak of. The government’s mantra in all this has been that “all options are open.”

Earlier this month, defence minister A.K. Antony declared that, “They (the armed forces) are in a state of full preparedness.” On Thursday, on the occasion of Army Day, the Chief of Army Staff Gen Deepak Kapoor repeated for the nth time that “all our options are open”, though he carefully insisted that war would be the last one.

So, given the imperative of striking immediately, the Manmohan Singh government perhaps could not press ahead because of indications that its Army was in an unready state. In such a scenario, there could be no guarantee that Pakistan would not make counter- moves across the border into Indian territory, gains which could have proved to be politically, rather than militarily, costly.

According to officers familiar with the developments, the Air Force was prepared to strike specified targets using a variety of weapons. These included the Israeli-made Popeye, a very destructive 100- km range flying bomb of remarkable accuracy; or the Paveway GPS-equipped guided bombs.

In fact, Air Marshal P.K. Barbora, who heads the Western Command that would lead the air campaign against Pakistan in case of war, publicly declared that the Indian Air Force (IAF) had plans that would target as many as 5,000 key Pakistani targets in the event of an all-out war.

Less is known of the Navy’s plans. But, besides preparing for general war by fuelling its old liquid propellant missiles, the Navy was also ready to use its conventional solid- fuelled Klub land- attack missiles that have a range of 220 km for any mission.

However, the government was concerned over the fact that any attack on shore targets could entangle the Navy with the US which uses the Karachi port for supplying its forces in Afghanistan.

While all the three services were keen to strike, one source said they were not ready to guarantee that any “ surgical strike” would not spiral into an all- out war, for which they were prepared only at varying levels of readiness.

Currently, by any reckoning, India enjoys a qualitative and quantitative edge over Pakistan in its air and naval assets. But even the edge India has in the air and sea cannot prevent a Pakistani riposte.

Pakistan’s army chief, General Pervez Ashfaq Kiyani threatened that Pakistan would respond “within minutes” to an Indian surgical strike. “This obviously means a missile strike which could be aimed at an Indian air base,” said an Air Force officer. “How would we then respond? If we hit their base, then we would enter into an escalation scenario,” he added.

Experts admit that notwithstanding the numbers, the armies of the two countries are evenly matched. This means that if India can capture territory in Pakistan, the latter could also do the same in India.

On paper, India’s 1.3 million- man Army with more than 12,000 tanks, artillery guns, rocket launchers and infantry combat vehicles is almost twice the size of Pakistan’s 620,000- strong force with some 6,000 tanks and artillery guns. But, minus nine divisions of the Indian forces that are committed to deal with China, the two armies are approximately equal in size.

As it is, a big chunk of the Indian Army is involved in counter-insurgency operations.

As the Kargil review committee report had noted, “The heavy involvement of the Army in counter- insurgency operations cannot but affect its preparedness for its primary role, which is to defend the country against external aggression.”

Sources say that the armed forces were concerned about four aspects of the situation — shortages, obsolescence of equipment, the quality and quantity of the holdings. The latest Comptroller and Auditor General report reveals, the Ordnance Factory Board’s (OFB) manufacture of 23mm ammunition for the Shilka and 30mm guns mounted on Infantry Combat Vehicles was riddled with bad production planning, inefficient and uneconomic production of components and ammunition and inadequate quality control.

As a result, the OFB’s supply was 34 per cent short of what the Army needed. In February 2007, the Army had to import Rs 45 crore worth of 23mm ammunition.

The 2003 CAG report had pointed out that an ordnance factory had landed the Army with as many as 135,000 defective tank ammunition worth Rs 600 crore. The defect, which was detected after one shell had killed a tank commander and injured a crew member, is yet to be rectified.

In 1999, when the Navy was mobilised in the wake of the Kargil war, it found that its plans were crimped because some of its newest frigates did not have any air defence missiles because of the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s failed Trishul project. This was the reason why the Barak missile was subsequently sourced from Israel. These are just two of the many horror stories that afflict the Indian defence set-up.

The key worry for all three services is in what constitutes their “war wastage reserves.” This is the stock of missiles, munitions and equipment kept as a reserve and is equivalent to the time that an actual Indo- Pak war is expected to last — usually around three weeks.

As stocking ammunition and missiles cost a great deal of money, since the materials have a shelf- life and must be thrown away after that, the defence ministry has pared the reserve in some types of munitions to a couple of days to a week.

A 2003 government report has pointed out that, “At the commencement of Operation Vijay ( the 1999 Kargil war), the stocks of Laser Guidance Kits with the Air Force were sufficient for only 12 days’ requirements as against then applicable War Wastage Reserve of 30 days’ requirements.” The same report said another type of bomb and its tail units held by the mother depot at the beginning of the war were only “23 per cent and 2.2 per cent, respectively, of the mandatory minimum reserves, while no fuses were held in stock by the depot.” You can be sure that the same story, multiplied by 100, is repeated across the three services.

In September 2002, after the crisis that developed following the December 2001 attack on Parliament had waned, President Pervez Musharraf travelled to the US and in an interview with the Christian Science Monitor , had this to say: “…my military judgment was that they [Indians] would not attack us… Militarily… there is a certain ratio required for an offensive force to succeed. The ratios that we maintain are far above that — far above what a defensive force requires to defend itself...”

Cocky Musharraf was not wrong. Fire eaters across the country have been egging the government to go to war with Pakistan over the Mumbai massacre. But could it be that India have an Army that is simply not ready for one? Who is responsible for this? Everyone, from the generals who have become progressively bureaucratised, to the bureaucrats whose only concern is over their empanelment and time- scales. And, above all, their political bosses, who are content to let things be the way they are and allow hundreds of thousands of crores of rupees to be spent for an armed force that is not ready when needed.

Courtesy: Mail Today

is this a smoke-screen to make us complacent!!!
 
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Indian army holding war drill on Line of Control

Srinagar—Indian Army has reinforced troop deployment besides installing Bofors artillery guns and other battle wares along the 734 Km long, 34 Km wide LoC. The soldiers, according sources, have been put on highest alert “to meet any eventuality.”

A top army officer based in North Kashmir confirmed to Rising Kashmir that adequate manpower and logistics are being transported towards the Line of Control (LOC).

“We are building adequate logistics and are also filling gaps by further reinforcing troops,” he disclosed, adding, “We are taking such steps as a precautionary measure as Pakistan is mobilising its troops on other side of LoC”.

Without disclosing the number of troops being deployed on the de-facto border, he said, “Our arms and ammunition are in ready mode. We are ready to deal with any situation”.

Maintaining that armoury and manpower proves effective during wars, he said, “We think Pakistan would react”.

He, however, ruled out a full-fledged war. “Pakistan would probably engage them in border skirmishes,” he added.

Meanwhile, the Uri residents have panicked after observing the increased troops movement from the last four days.

“The movement of army convoys has increased during past few days,” a resident of Tchal, Uri Ahmad Khan told Rising Kashmir. “They are transporting troops, artillery guns and mules to LoC. It looks as if they are preparing for the war”.

The border residents said army has deployed artillery guns inside their camp near Tchal. “They were installed also installed at the same place but later were taken away,” a resident of Nowshera Uri Ghulam Mohammad said.

“Army has also started installing bofors guns at the same place. The war preparations have started in full scale,” he added.

According to the border residents, army has also deputed its men alongwith BSF personnel to guard and patrol the roads.

Army has also started building up logistics and reinforcement along the Line of Control in Mendhar sector of Poonch district.

The residents of Saki Maidan close to LoC in Mendhar sector said army has deployed a full artillery brigade in the area. “Three days back, the artillery and troops were placed in the agricultural land. After our protests, army redeployed the men and machinery and positioned the tanks and artillery guns near the river,” they said.

The border residents said that army is gathering logistic and deploying reinforcement in the Saki Maidan, which is just 3 kilometres from Mendhar sector.

“Every day army adds a bofors gun to the already assembled artillery guns. The tanks and artillery guns were deployed in similar manner in the Saki Maidan area after the Indo-Pak tension increased following 1998 Kargil war,” they said.

The fear-stricken villagers said that it appears that India and Pakistan is preparing for a war. “We are really worried and do not want”.—SANA
 
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im quite surprised after reading the first article.....
Musharraf's statement was quite impressive and professional
 
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Was the army ready for war?
Sources said that the Army apparently lacked adequate stocks of ammunition as well as key elements of artillery and other equipment.
Well this can be expected from a newbie or a wannabe terrorist kinda organization, but not at all from a professional army-that the india army sure is.
This was confirmed by a well-connected retired general who said, “The 400-odd Bofors guns we bought in the 1980s are falling apart for want of spares, the (600-odd) Shilka anti-aircraft cannon are in desperate need of upgradation. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.” He added that India’s numerically vast tank fleet is in poor shape, and it did not have any mobile artillery to speak of. The government’s mantra in all this has been that “all options are open.”
Now who should be blamed for this???? Not Pakistan this time.:tongue:
Earlier this month, defence minister A.K. Antony declared that, “They (the armed forces) are in a state of full preparedness.” On Thursday, on the occasion of Army Day, the Chief of Army Staff Gen Deepak Kapoor repeated for the nth time that “all our options are open”, though he carefully insisted that war would be the last one.
What were they all thinking exactly?

publicly declared that the Indian Air Force (IAF) had plans that would target as many as 5,000 key Pakistani targets in the event of an all-out war.
Now this was impressive.
Less is known of the Navy’s plans. But, besides preparing for general war by fuelling its old liquid propellant missiles, the Navy was also ready to use its conventional solid- fuelled Klub land- attack missiles that have a range of 220 km for any mission.

However, the government was concerned over the fact that any attack on shore targets could entangle the Navy with the US which uses the Karachi port for supplying its forces in Afghanistan.
This is known as a guud stratagem. Somebody did use some brains on this one.
While all the three services were keen to strike, one source said they were not ready to guarantee that any “ surgical strike” would not spiral into an all- out war, for which they were prepared only at varying levels of readiness.
What else did they expect? How lame can they be to expect that there would not be a befitting response.
Currently, by any reckoning, India enjoys a qualitative and quantitative edge over Pakistan in its air and naval assets. But even the edge India has in the air and sea cannot prevent a Pakistani riposte.
First part-less the 'quantitative' thing-not agreed to.
And the second concern: ya sure you are right.
Pakistan’s army chief, General Pervez Ashfaq Kiyani threatened that Pakistan would respond “within minutes” to an Indian surgical strike. “This obviously means a missile strike which could be aimed at an Indian air base,” said an Air Force officer. “How would we then respond? If we hit their base, then we would enter into an escalation scenario,” he added.
Comments reserved
Experts admit that notwithstanding the numbers, the armies of the two countries are evenly matched. This means that if India can capture territory in Pakistan, the latter could also do the same in India.
Reserved again.
On paper, India’s 1.3 million- man Army with more than 12,000 tanks, artillery guns, rocket launchers and infantry combat vehicles is almost twice the size of Pakistan’s 620,000- strong force with some 6,000 tanks and artillery guns. But, minus nine divisions of the Indian forces that are committed to deal with China, the two armies are approximately equal in size.
This is known as failure of foreign policy.

As it is, a big chunk of the Indian Army is involved in counter-insurgency operations.
As the Kargil review committee report had noted, “The heavy involvement of the Army in counter- insurgency operations cannot but affect its preparedness for its primary role, which is to defend the country against external aggression.”
Ya sure india is secular.
Sources say that the armed forces were concerned about four aspects of the situation — shortages, obsolescence of equipment, the quality and quantity of the holdings. The latest Comptroller and Auditor General report reveals, the Ordnance Factory Board’s (OFB) manufacture of 23mm ammunition for the Shilka and 30mm guns mounted on Infantry Combat Vehicles was riddled with bad production planning, inefficient and uneconomic production of components and ammunition and inadequate quality control.
I m not to be blamed
As a result, the OFB’s supply was 34 per cent short of what the Army needed. In February 2007, the Army had to import Rs 45 crore worth of 23mm ammunition.
Yes the economy was booming.

The key worry for all three services is in what constitutes their “war wastage reserves.” This is the stock of missiles, munitions and equipment kept as a reserve and is equivalent to the time that an actual Indo- Pak war is expected to last — usually around three weeks.

As stocking ammunition and missiles cost a great deal of money, since the materials have a shelf- life and must be thrown away after that, the defence ministry has pared the reserve in some types of munitions to a couple of days to a week.
What!!!!!???:hitwall:
In September 2002, after the crisis that developed following the December 2001 attack on Parliament had waned, President Pervez Musharraf travelled to the US and in an interview with the Christian Science Monitor , had this to say: “…my military judgment was that they [Indians] would not attack us… Militarily… there is a certain ratio required for an offensive force to succeed. The ratios that we maintain are far above that — far above what a defensive force requires to defend itself...”
Commenst reserved for the third time.
 
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Indian Air Force (IAF) had plans that would target as many as 5,000 key Pakistani targets in the event of an all-out war.
Targeting 5000 times inside Pakistan is indeed an all out war.
'Manoj Joshi'...finally some one with common sense from indian side other wise before every indian was terming it as 'surgical strikes'.

What about southern or eastern borders of india? will there be any defence resources kept during any future war with Pakistan?

BTW, What would be the shelf life of 'Barak' missile?
 
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‘India feared Pakistan might capture land’

NEW DELHI: India’s air force and navy were ready to strike Pakistan after the November 26 Mumbai terrorist attacks, but New Delhi stopped them because its army lacked key artillery equipment and adequate ammunition supplies, an Indian strategic affairs expert said in a newspaper article on Saturday.

The Indian Army could have taken several weeks to begin operations, and New Delhi feared Pakistan could penetrate into Indian territory to make gains that could prove costly “politically rather than militarily”, according to Manoj Joshi.

“The 400-odd Bofors guns we bought in the 1980s are falling apart for want of spares. The 600-odd Shilka anti-aircraft cannons are in desperate need of upgrade. And, this is just the tip of the iceberg,” he wrote, quoting an unidentified retired general. The same general disclosed that India’s numerically vast tank fleet was in poor shape it did not have any mobile artillery to speak of.

Joshi said the Indian Air Force was prepared to strike specified targets with the Israeli Popeye – a very destructive and accurate 100-kilometre range flying bomb – and the Paveway GPS-guided bombs. The Indian Navy was also ready to use its conventional solid-fuelled 220-kilometre-range Klub land-attack missiles, he wrote.

But New Delhi did not allow such attacks because they could have entangled the Indian Navy with the US, which uses the Karachi port to send supplies to its forces in Afghanistan, according to Joshi.

He said all three Indian services were keen to strike, but were not ready to guarantee that any ‘surgical operation’ would not spiral into an all-out war, for which they were prepared only at varying levels. iftikhar gilani
 
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There were reports of IN subs under repair that has been the reason for India not going ahead, now this expert says IN was ready but not the IA. I dont think any army was would be war ready 24/7, it would have tons of repair, modernisation, upgradation going on at any time.

The reason why India doesnt fight with Paksitan is because it cannot gain anything, its going to be stalemtae and the damages would take decades to recover.

Why fight and lose out on a decade when uncle sam is inching and itching to do it as days go by.
 
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Ha! At least they're admitting that they were ready for war. Whatever happened to all those bull**** statements from Manmohin Singh about "We don't war, we want peace!" Well NOW we understand. OFCOURSE he didn't war, since they didn't had any God damn AMMO that's why! :rofl:

here's another report on the IN.

 
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Yeah, the Indian media played quite a battle there. Armchair General was on FIRE! I wonder if they use C&C red alert to plan all their battles. :woot:
 
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ha ha ha

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Indian Army did not oppose attack: chief

NEW DELHI: The Indian Army on Saturday said it was fully prepared to execute any task entrusted by the nation and dismissed reports that it had opposed a military strike against Pakistan following the Mumbai terror attacks citing ill-preparedness.

“I think you can bank upon an army, which is prepared for the tasks given to it by the nation and the leadership,” Indian Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told reporters.

Reacting to reports of the army differing with the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the navy on going in for a military strike against terror camps inside Pakistani territory, Gen Kapoor said, “I do not know from where you (media) got those reports of the army not being prepared.”

The reports had suggested that the army faced a shortage of equipment, and had thus opposed attacking Pakistani targets. online
 
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Sir Neo,
This tread can be merged with "Was the Army ready for War"
(I dont want to spend my energies on this one now ;-))
 
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That's why they so desperate to import cluster bombs from the US... Sleazy Hindu's are even willing to break the Geneva conventions.
 
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That's why they so desperate to import cluster bombs from the US... Sleazy Hindu's are even willing to break the Geneva conventions.

Hear hear! I bet they'd ask for "White Phosphorus" next time. Their jewish brothers are currently using them against the Palestinians. Along with cluster bombs and God knows what else.
 
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