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war, war, war.........! why are they demanding so????

In Toronto you meet different nationalities on daily basis, when I meet south Indian its like meeting someone from mars, but when we meet North Indian, smiles exchanged jokes are shared and on lookers may feel we are from the same country.

Pakistan should claim entire Northern India not just Kashmir :)
 
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It's because of the Hindutva mindset to exterminate pakistan and push us into the sea... hence peace will never be possible with these people.

Moo par ram ram, bakhaal maay chooree!
 
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In Toronto you meet different nationalities on daily basis, when I meet south Indian its like meeting someone from mars, but when we meet North Indian, smiles exchanged jokes are shared and on lookers may feel we are from the same country.

Pakistan should claim entire Northern India not just Kashmir :)
and Bangladesh?
 
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To my countrymen.

Lets first stop threatening Mushroom clouds over India in every thread. Using A-Bomb is no child's play, in my personal opinion its haram. When the prophet laid the rules of war, he said not to kill any woman, child, old person, don't kill any animals or cut down any trees and when a person lays down his weapon treat him like you would treat your own brother. By using a nuke you basically violate those rules of war.

Also learn to listen to other people's view point, have valid and rational arguments. Stop being abusive (except to trolls). Also remember that just how India have extremists Hindus that dream of exterminate Pakistan, we have Mullahs that claim to do the same. It doesn't mean that all Indians want that.

To my Indian friends.

Please understand that people of Pakistan have an emotional connection with people of Kashmir and when we see pictures and videos of violence, its understandable that Pakistanis would get angry, it doesn't mean we hate all of you or want to wipe out all Indians, even if some people might say that, it still doesn't reflect the views of the majority. We want good friendly relations with India, you are our neighbors and you will remain our neighbors and no one can change that.

But on saying that the only way that is possible is by resolving the Kashmir dispute. Even if we make LOC an International border, the people of Kashmir will keep fighting the Indian forces, like they have for the past 70 years and the violence will continue and we will keeping coming back and arguing/abusing each other over it. Actually if LOC was made a permanent border, the people of Pakistani side of Kashmir might get violent with Pakistan for betraying them.

I hope you all understand where i am coming from, and forgive me if i have hurt anyone's feeling.

P.S. @Nilgiri if you get those mittens, then i want the cake that you are going to make by using those mittens
 
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Persecution is worse than slaughter (The Holy Quran).

no justice = no peace. Simple as that.

Chapter: Verse?

India being the biggest country in the region, wants to dictate as a regional superpower. Unfortunately for India, Pakistan arose as a big, insurmountable obstacle in their path to realizing their dreams.

Peace in South Asia can only prevail if:

1. Pakistan willfully becomes submissive to India, or,
2. Pakistan defeats India once and for all

Neither of the two seem possible for a long time to come unless the world order changes after a great holocaust - Read WW3.
 
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For peace to happen, war is inevitable which should end not in a stalemate but complete defeat of one party. Take example of Europe, until war world 2 they were bitter enemies after the defeat of Germany and Japan, they all moved to becoming allies and see where they are now. Something similar is needed here but the problem is other powers with their vested interests will not let one party into getting defeated completely. Also since nukes are present in the equation, there is very much likely that the loosing party will launch nukes at the other resulting in the destruction of the world we know it. Such factors are the reasons for a stalemate and if i may add the current benefit of a stalemate goes in India's favour.
My 2 cents. Feel free to disagree.
PEACE COMES AFTER EVERY WAR
 
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I feel more comfortable with indians in middle east than bengalis or arabs....

Lets make LOC the international border and focus on economy and trade....

Wish these things could happen but our politicians will never want to resolve this, if this rivalry is resolved , people will start asking questions which our politicians want to avoid.
Same here but I am from Kashmir. Even though I have friends from India I keep reminding them that Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and not India. Dosti apni jaga but what if your town or city was under Indian occupation will you accept that as an international border too?
 
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Accepting LOC as IB doesn't mean Pak was wrong...it just mean Pak gives up the demand for plebiscite. It is rather India that lays claim to Kashmir based on the Instrument of Accession. India would also look just as bad in front of Indians by giving up it's claim on Kashmir as Pak would look to Pakistanis giving up demand for a plebiscite.

I think Indians are happy if the status quo at the border became a permanent settlement. When have we made any attempts to invade your side of Kashmir? If Pakistan settles for the LOC, so would we.

And as for the terror attacks...
How can it be always the case that when terror attacks happen in India, Pak is for sure responsible. When they happen in Pak, India is for sure innocent?

Please understand that this kind of equivalence does not work. It is not taken for granted in all situations that all parties involved are engaging in the same activity. If Pakistan is doing it then so must India. Really? So by that reasoning the allies must also have been running concentration camps, and NATO must also have been conducting ethnic pogroms in Yugoslavia. Fact is, there are plenty of examples where only one side is either the aggressor or has defied acceptable state practice. I really don't know from where PDF members get the idea that all countries run sprawling terror camps and fund terror groups. That is just one of the geo-strategic moves a country can make, and not the only one. Just because Pakistan, US and some other countries chose it does not mean the whole world does it all the time.

U guys say that those terror attacks in Pak are due to Pak propping up terrorist outfits. Then if they are that out of control of Pak that they attack Pak itself. How does Pak convince them to attack India then? Also if they have gone out of Pak's control where do they keep getting the funds, weaponry, and training to continue attacking Pak? R u suggesting that Pak is still financing them to keep attacking Pak? Then spending additional money to fight them(Zarb-e-Azab)? This flies in the face of logic.

The terrorist organizations in Pakistan are not a monolithic entity. LeT and JuD are India-centric, whereas the Haqqani network, while not being India centric, was also involved in attacks on Indian assets in Afghanistan. Of these, the Pak Army has only moved against the Haqqani network to a very limited extent under Zarb e Azb, and now that the Haqqani network has fractured, undoubtedly one part of it will continue its previous activities.

Of the other organizations, there has been no action against any. Sartaj Aziz in a 2014 interview to BBC specifically mentioned that Pakistan does not target Afghan Taliban or Haqqani network as they do not threaten the security of Pakistan. Now how is anyone supposed to react to such news?

As for the response of Pakistan to terrorism, again, we are referring to different institutions. There is the government, then the military/intelligence network, and civil society. I am certain most of Pakistan government and civil society opposes these terror organizations, just as any other sane person would.

However, what about the Pakistani deep state? Will it be the first instance where a deep state has followed a path which makes little practical sense in the present day? The American security apparatus has maintained its fixation and hostility towards Russia, long after the Cold War. To the extent that it has impaired their ability to counter a rising China. Has that made them reconsider the folly of engaging Russia everywhere long after they have become a second rate power?

Countering India through assymetric means is a pillar of Pakistani security policy. It would be beneficial to both if this stopped being so. But the problem with the military intelligence community is that they tend to exist for their own sake, unless under tight civilian control.

What is most amazing that after every major terror attack, Pakistanis turn towards their Army for rescue. Instead for rage and seething anger upon the people who have caused this situation, they are hailed as heroes. All too much to handle, really.

The groups that are targeting Pakistan are definitely not being funded and armed by Pakistan. So where does their funding come from? It's not like Pakistan has thousands of enemies. The answer is obvious. Ur own politicians have admitted to engaging in a proxy war with Pakistan. Come on mate, this whole holier than thou approach doesn't work in reality.

Ever since the Afghan War, a sophisticated network of funding for such activities has evolved. Do not think that state funding is all they have. Narcotics, arms smuggling, counterfeiting, they are all means of independent funding for these organizations. Do some research into the reasons behind Karachi's problem with heroine addiction, you will get the picture.

Then of course there are people like Hafiz Saeed, who raises money for "charity" from normal people. And finally, how can we forget the glorious role for Saudis and Qataris, who show equal zeal for investment in football clubs and terror organizations? For any anti-Shia or anti-Sufi attacks, you have to look no further.

If u r still going to believe that India does no such thing then u r essentially saying that Pak can carry out terrorist attacks in India and India just takes it, letting it's citizens die with no response.

Who says there is no response from us? But the response is not the type you think. Because our version involves diplomatic offensive and making the cost of military escalation unacceptable. Just as the Pakistani security apparatus intends to bleed us through the war of thousand cuts, we intend to bleed them through a regime of de facto isolation where apart from maintaining diplomatic presence, Pakistan has no relations with most countries.

You think that today all South Asian countries are on India's side by accident? You think it is just a coincidence that when Nawaz Sharif mentioned Kashmir in UNGA, he was met with silence?

What were Operation Parakram and subsequent cold start doctrine? Simply means of ensuring that Pak Army stays mobilized forever and this bleeds your country's coffers. Apart from bravado, ask any military personnel you know as to how long Pak Army can maintain a posture on the eastern border if India mobilizes once again. The aim is not to go to war, it is simply to leech your very limited resources as and when we feel like.

The reality is that all countries engage in this kind of dirty game. The difference is Pakistanis own it and Indians deny it.

As long as you keep believing that against all evidence, nothing will change. If we deny then it is for Pakistan to prove. The existence of spies does not prove that. The existence of intelligence personnel in the consulates in Afghanistan does not prove that.

What proves it is if after a terror attack, a clear forensic trail can be established to the handlers in India. Then foolishness like Sartaj Aziz waving around a meaningless dossier will stop and we will also get some stick from the world.

Of course, we may choose to simply ignore the fact that everyone knows we sponsor terror, just as Pakistanis have chosen to do for decades.
 
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hahaha this is very funny

look India is a elder Brother and Pakistan is Younger brother And Kashmir is a beautiful Girl friend of both brother..

Younger brother want to live peacefully in his home. but elder brother want that his brother should join home as it was before 1947. both brother want their beautiful Girl friend. and Girl Friend only love with younger brother. and elder brother kidnapped the Girl that is why both keep on fighting to each other.
 
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Same here but I am from Kashmir. Even though I have friends from India I keep reminding them that Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and not India. Dosti apni jaga but what if your town or city was under Indian occupation will you accept that as an international border too?

Ideally speaking 'NO' i wont accept if my hometown is under some other country's occupation. But practically speaking after 70 years of war and hatred, 70 years of misplaced priorities, 70 years of neglecting thousands of other towns for the sake on one home town, I would try to reach to a compromise and take care of thousands of other towns in my authority while at the same time getting some guarantee that my original hometown is also taken care of by the enemy and decent standard of living can be provided to people living in towns and cities under my authority and my enemy's authority.

Just imagine a few decades down the lane, India and pakistan has 200+billion trade, 1000's of border crossings. Kashmiris from srinagar coming daily to muzaffarabad and vice versa. Lahore's bundu khan resturant making deliveries in amritsar and coming back...

I lived in khobar and saw people living in bahrain daily coming to KSA during office hours and then going back. In al ain uae, i know a pakistani resturant who made late delivery to my home, on questioning he replied he had to make deliveries to buraimi, oman, so he got late. if 70 years ago, india and pakistan had negotiated some peace pacts we might have had a similar situation now.

PS:- with both countries nuclear how do you expect that even one inch of IoK or Azad Kashmir can be taken by the opposing party without crossing the nuclear threshold.
 
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I think nearly everybody here wants peace and friendship, the exception are immature keyboard warriors on both sides who are desperate for war not understanding the devastating consequences of such a thing.

My only demand from the Indians is fair and its for a plebiscite to let the Kashmiri people choose their own destiny, I think this is a very reasonable request and I think a similar referendum be offered in Azad Kashmir and GB if it makes the Indians feel more comfortable. Resolution of Kashmir is the major outstanding issue, and other matters can be peacefully resolved bilaterally if we both reach an agreement for that region first.
 
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Without solving the issue of Kashmir, it looks impossible
#Free Kashmir
@Rasengan brother.

Apparently India believes in the idea of democracy, thus the people of Kashmir should decide on their own future.
However, deep in there subconscious they are scared of having a referendum. There is no difference between the Israeli Army and the Indian Army. Both of them torture and kill innocent people who are fighting for justice, dignity and freedom. Trust me if the people of Kashmir voted to remain with India, then Pakistan would accept this decision.

Iran should be very careful in its relationship with India because they have formed a strong strategic alliance with Israel. The Muslim world must set its differences aside and form a block in which the West cannot dictate our policies.
 
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For peace to happen, war is inevitable which should end not in a stalemate but complete defeat of one party. Take example of Europe, until war world 2 they were bitter enemies after the defeat of Germany and Japan, they all moved to becoming allies and see where they are now. Something similar is needed here but the problem is other powers with their vested interests will not let one party into getting defeated completely. Also since nukes are present in the equation, there is very much likely that the loosing party will launch nukes at the other resulting in the destruction of the world we know it. Such factors are the reasons for a stalemate and if i may add the current benefit of a stalemate goes in India's favour.
My 2 cents. Feel free to disagree.


Yes, the stalemate is in India's favor. That could be nullified IF Pakistan, China and Russia along with Iran really form a block which yanks Afghanistan from India's sphere AND Uncle Sam really decides to go into isolationist mode. I don't think such outcomes are out of question. Still hypothetical though.

India and Pakistan have never fought the bloody, hateful wars that the Europeans did. I don't know how to find the cause of that rather pleasant phenomenon? Maybe there is no deep seated nationalism and hatred between the vast majority of the people on both sides?

Be as it may, the solution is staring us in the eyes: LoC = IB. Even Musharraf now accepts that. Of course there will be major caveats for Pakistan's water rights, Kashmiris' right to move freely on both sides etc. But what was possible in mid-2000's is still possible. India is not building any facts on the ground in Kashmir unlike the Israelis doing in Palestine.
 
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Yes, the stalemate is in India's favor. That could be nullified IF Pakistan, China and Russia along with Iran really form a block which yanks Afghanistan from India's sphere AND Uncle Sam really decides to go into isolationist mode. I don't think such outcomes are out of question. Still hypothetical though.

India and Pakistan have never fought the bloody, hateful wars that the Europeans did. I don't know how to find the cause of that rather pleasant phenomenon? Maybe there is no deep seated nationalism and hatred between the vast majority of the people on both sides?

Be as it may, the solution is staring us in the eyes: LoC = IB. Even Musharraf now accepts that. Of course there will be major caveats for Pakistan's water rights, Kashmiris' right to move freely on both sides etc. But what was possible in mid-2000's is still possible. India is not building any facts on the ground in Kashmir unlike the Israelis doing in Palestine.

Give another 10 - 20 years for India and Pakistan to build up their economies better, and you will see more and more pressure for Kashmir to be resolved peacefully with an acceptable solution to all concerned.

The advantage here compared to Israel/Palestine is that Kashmir represents only a small portion of the area and population of both India and Pakistan compared to the entirety it is in the case of Israel/Palestine. India and Pakistan also fundamentally recognise the existence of the other and the right for the other to exist politically....unlike Israel/Palestine.
 
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