Walls and Bridges

[liontk]

Sure, It practices the values preached - that's why religion is what is practiced by adherents, and not some pie in the sky books - and practice and values that guide it, are best apprehended in the spirit, and not the letter.

Fair enough mon ami, however everybody needs something to place our mere faith on , for some it could be a mere whim and in life everyone comes to different conclusions. I am only 20, may be in 10 years I may very well be laughing at the ideas that I once chided . Now i must really part as its getting very late, it was nice having an open discussion, hopefully i did not come off as a religious loony as I try to keep faith chat to a minimum and hopefully I did not offend you at any point as I do tend to digress from what I was trying to talk about. Take care

 

[doppelganger]

The concept of a nation state faces challenges from and is competing with diverse other loyalties- religion, ethnicity, language- for a 'citizen's attention'.

But we have and had the same challenges did we not? If anything, we because of our size and the fact that we were never meant to be a state for one faith alone, have far greater diversity of religion, ethnicity, language, etc. do we not? Even the US and UK have diversity to an extent. I read that soon in both these countries white anglo-saxons, mostly Christian of one form or another, will become a minority.

Muse asked about the army. Others like Armstrong and Developereo would bring up the feudals and the land owners. Even others would bring up the religious faction. But my point originally was that except for some poor and uneducated Muslims from mainly Bihar and UP who moved to Karachi, the rest of Pakistan was made up of khaandaani type people. Are they the ones who went bad or the migrants did?

 

[Armstrong]

Really excellent --- why do you suppose we are polarized? what have we seen of the extremes at allows us to be polarized?

Because we are caught between those who want nothing to do what the West has to offer & those who'd want Pakistan to be just another Western Country with an Oriental insignia. Its the condescending attitude of the proponents of either that creates this polarization !

 

[Developereo]

And as far as Pakistan goes - no one asks for asking people to leave Islam. All that modern nations and modern people ask is for Pakistan to separate Islam from Government and Governance.

Let the people be as religious or as atheist they want to be - its their own private affair - not the government's.

Once again, that presumes what Islam stands for. As liontk, Armstrong and others have pointed out, there are interpretations of Islam which are fully compatible with all the elements of modern secular democracies. At the end of the day, what matters are the laws of the land, not where they found inspiration.

You are right that Islam, like any religion or philosophy, is open to interpretation and, therefore, abuse by unscrupulous leaders and the safest approach might be to separate it from politics completely.

The most important consideration is that Islam should not be made into a scapegoat. This is for the purely practical reason that, if such is perceived to be the case and people are made to feel ashamed of Islam, they might rebound right into the arms of extremists who would portray any move towards modernity as being inherently anti-Islam.

It is the job of the elite to ensure that the 'other loyalties' in a country do not subvert or undermine the concept of a nation state from a citizen's perspective.

In my opinion, in Pakistan the elite has failed to do this, with the result that in the mind of its citizens, the concept of nation state has been thus far unable to dominate over the other concepts : linguistic, language and especially religious.

Edit: To add to the above, the elites must also broadly ensure that the 'nation state' provides basic services to its citizens, just like any corporation. Education, food, electricity, fair practices etc, etc. Any nation state that fails to do this well, will also find it difficult to convince its citizens of the core strength of the concept. See most African countries.

There are many 'elites' and there is no reason why the intellectual elite should be the same group as the ruling political elite. Pakistan's misfortune is that there is almost no overlap between these elites.

 

[muse]

Because we are caught between those who want nothing to do what the West has to offer & those who'd want Pakistan to be just another Western Country with an Oriental insignia. Its the condescending attitude of the proponents of either that creates this polarization !

But we have a history with the West, an actual heritage - do we have an actual heritage with the proponents of the idea that we should have nothing to do with the West? Especially since where that idea emanates from only exists with the protection it gets from the West?

 

[Armstrong]

But we have a history with the West, an actual heritage - do we have an actual heritage with the proponents of the idea that we should have nothing to do with the West? Especially since where that idea emanates from only exists with the protection it gets from the West?

Elaborate on that more, I didn't get you !

 

[liontk]

liontk sir, I very much want to read what you are saying since so many people are quoting and thanking you. But it is difficult mon ami since you do not break your big post into small paragraphs.

My apoligies doppelganger, I do tend to digress alot from the topic and get carried away, I should really edit my paragraphs before submitting, however this is getting late though point taken. Like I mentioned to Muse earlier, I will clear it up tommorow, hopefully i did not come off as a pseudo religious loony. Take care and good night to you all

 

[EyelessInGaza]

But we have and had the same challenges did we not? If anything, we because of our size and the fact that we were never meant to be a state for one faith alone, have far greater diversity of religion, ethnicity, language, etc. do we not? Even the US and UK have diversity to an extent. I read that soon in both these countries white anglo-saxons, mostly Christian of one form or another, will become a minority..........?

Yes, and I'd say that the answer to your questions also lie in the very part that you've quoted from my post:

The concept of a nation state faces challenges from and is competing with diverse other loyalties- religion, ethnicity, language- for a 'citizen's attention'.

Just flip it and ask yourselves, how and why the concept of 'nation state' has competed reasonably successfully with other concepts, in India, and much more so in the west.

 

[muse]

Elaborate on that more, I didn't get you !

We have a heritage with the West -- the idea that we should have nothing to with the West is an extreme, is it not? After it's not just have nothing to do with the West, it also includes notions of "the truth" and by definition non-truth and what needs to happen to those do not submit to "The Truth'

And you suggest that these people, are presenting us with a vision of "identity", right?

Is it an extreme ??

 

[EyelessInGaza]

.........
There are many 'elites' and there is no reason why the intellectual elite should be the same group as the ruling political elite. Pakistan's misfortune is that there is almost no overlap between these elites.

That makes it even harder on the 'nation state' concept. If no new elites are allowed to develop, frustration and anger agains the systems are almost a given.

 

[doppelganger]

We have a heritage with the West -- the idea that we should have nothing to with the West is an extreme, is it not? After it's not just have nothing to do with the West, it also includes notions of "the truth" and by definition non-truth and what needs to happen to those do not submit to "The Truth'

And you suggest that these people, are presenting us with a vision of "identity", right?

Is it an extreme ??

Sir are you suggesting that like many westerners accuse us Indians, even you Pakistanis are suffering from a slightly different or more virulent form of post-colonial syndrome?

Just flip it and ask yourselves, how and why the concept of 'nation state' has competed reasonably successfully with other concepts, in India, and much more so in the west.

The belief that the nation come first above any other allegiance?

 

[Developereo]

Broadly speaking even the ruling elites agree on the road map its the operational execution of it that is beyond irksome !

I honestly don't think so.

I am convinced the feudal/ethnic elite ruling Pakistan are scared of progress because they abhor the idea of a powerful middle class. I don't even think they have any sense of Pakistan as a nation: witness they let the East Pakistan situation deteriorate to the point of no return and are doing the same with Baluchistan and Shias.

These guys simply cannot see or care beyond their nose.

But we have and had the same challenges did we not? If anything, we because of our size and the fact that we were never meant to be a state for one faith alone, have far greater diversity of religion, ethnicity, language, etc. do we not?

I believe it is precisely this large size and diversity which was India's savior.

Pakistan is small enough that the Sindhi and Punjabi feudals have reached a mutual understanding. You loot today, and let me have my turn tomorrow. The tragedy is that the army joined the fun instead of breaking up this devil's compact. The Bengalis saw the writing on the wall and walked.

In India, however, it is hard for one or two regional/ethnic power brokers to dominate the whole country, so everybody has to play nice.

 

[Armstrong]

We have a heritage with the West -- the idea that we should have nothing to with the West is an extreme, is it not? After it's not just have nothing to do with the West, it also includes notions of "the truth" and by definition non-truth and what needs to happen to those do not submit to "The Truth'

And you suggest that these people, are presenting us with a vision of "identity", right?

Is it an extreme ??

I have no idea what you've extrapolated this to mean because I can't comprehend your cryptic talk of truths & non truths ! What, I believe, that notion of 'nothing to do with the West' postulates is perhaps an 'Iron Curtain' like situation for us - Trade...yeah, but thats it !

On my part I find either extreme equitably absurd & dangerous for what I'd want Pakistan to be.

I honestly don't think so.

I am convinced the feudal/ethnic elite ruling Pakistan are scared of progress because they abhor the idea of a powerful middle class. I don't even think they have any sense of Pakistan as a nation: witness they let the East Pakistan situation deteriorate to the point of no return and are doing the same with Baluchistan and Shias.

I dunno mate, I don't think its feudalism per se but more of an abysmal state of our institutions that give all & sundry the vacuum to rip the rest of us off with impunity; you've got everyone from retired & serving generals to leading industrialists & so called intellectuals of Pakistan all taking the mickey out of the masses !

But the good thing is that people are more politically aware today than they were a few years ago & we might just have a chance to break out of this regressive cycle once & for all.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

..........
The belief that the nation come first above any other allegiance?

Yes, plus a core common history, religion, tradition but beliefs are also theoretical, even though very important.

Then the fact that there are diverse elites who're 'not in bed with each other'. Political, military, business, judicial etc. However people may detest Mulayam or Laloo, they were/ are a safety valve - by their very own presence they certify that the Indian system can expand to create absorb new elites. Knowing that they too 'can make it' keeps people interested in the nation state.

New emerging elites (the business class) who keep driving the country forward.

Plus the fact that despite our corruption, poverty, and every other negative you can think of, we've on the whole kept moving onwards.

To add to what I've said above, I don't think that the average Indian is that different from the average Pakistani in what they want from life: upwards mobility, money, health, good education for them and their children, all in an environment that makes it possible and where talent and effort are valued.

So far the Indian nation state has managed to do that better than the Pakistani nation state. The challenge to us will be to continue to do it with a population of 1 billion plus.

From what I read, only the Pakistan Army in Pakistan is closest to a true meritocracy. For example, when you have feudals who own the land, dominate politics, dominate businesses, it makes it restrictive for others to grow.

I believe that General Kiyani is a son of an NCO. In how many other institutions in Pakistan can a person rise to the top with this background?

 

[doppelganger]

Yes, plus a core common history, religion, tradition but beliefs are also theoretical, even though very important.

Then the fact that there are diverse elites who're 'not in bed with each other'. Political, military, business, judicial etc. However people may detest Mulayam or Laloo, they were/ are a safety valve - by their very own presence they certify that the Indian system can expand to create absorb new elites. Knowing that they too 'can make it' keeps people interested in the nation state.

New emerging elites (the business class) who keep driving the country forward.

Plus the fact that despite our corruption, poverty, and every other negative you can think of, we've on the whole kept moving onwards.

To add to what I've said above, I don't think that the average Indian is that different from the average Pakistani in what they want from life: upwards mobility, money, health, good education for them and their children, all in an environment that makes it possible and where talent and effort are valued.

So far the Indian nation state has managed to do that better than the Pakistani nation state. The challenge to us will be to continue to do it with a population of 1 billion plus.

From what I read, only the Pakistan Army in Pakistan is closest to a true meritocracy. When you have feudals who own the and, dominate politics, dominate businesses, it makes it restrictive for others to grow.

So it all boils down to Democracy?