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Vyom's Musings : The Illusion of CPEC Prosperity - The Debt Trap

Please avoid ad-ad hominem counters.

Yes I am aware of that, of every point that you have mentioned, But this is partnership of Unequals, how many JV in heavy industries have you got ? How many Chemical plants ? How many Automotive industry? All "infrastructure" projects are "Turnkey". Its like buying something off the self. And everything will be done by Chinese manpower and Machinery. 95% of that Money Will flow back to China.

Infrastructure Building is a continual process and that learning is being not granted to Pakistan at 18% sovereign guarantee (who on earth charges that much interest ???!! and that too in Dollars not RMB or Rupee ) . That is like being robbed. Steel plants are huge business and China has enough to meet the demand of the world for the next decade for the Entire Planet, they are running at 70% capacity now. You guys need Shanghi electric to set up Turbo-Generators manufacturing, Super critical Boilers manufacturing. Wanxiang Group Corporation to start making cars there. if its not happening read the plot differently.

There are no offset clauses in the agreement. that is the big point. The second half of your post is just the repeat of what I have read number of times. but how does that augment your capacity to make new plants. you can't keep buying things forever... rest its my take. Lets see how it pans out in 5-6 years.

China is doing a rerun of its Africa Model, you need financial maneuvering


Clearly you did not read my previous correspondence with meticulous care. Chinese industries will under no circumstances will attempt to relocate their industries to Pakistan in the first phase of CPEC, because the electricity dilemma needs to be resolved. Instead I gave you specific examples to demonstrate the potential of this project and how a large percentage of Chinese industry can move to Pakistan in the future.

Furthermore, your knowledge on the Economic Corridor is extremely poor, because a number of Pakistani companies have done JV with Chinese companies on power projects. For example Sino Hydro is currently doing a joint venture with Engro on a coal project in Thar. The Bahawalpur Solar park project is linked to the Government of Punjab and TBEA Xinjiang Corporation. The Nishat Group is working with a Chinese company in a coal project in Rahim Yar Khan. Most of the workers in these projects are Pakistani's for your kind information, except for the engineers and technical experts from China. You are making a conjecture without knowing any real facts and you also tend to forget that when Pakistan has enough energy to sustain its own industries, eventually other companies around the world will also invest and locate their factories in Pakistan. Also the rate of return on a project is different, for example the solar project in Bahawalpur is 17% and the hydro dam projects is anywhere between 11%-15%, depending on project size and investment.
 
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dekh bhai, dimag walon ke liye likha tha... apko padh kar hansi aayi hai ... maafi chata hoon ... gustakhi meri...

dekh bhai.... apko pata hai k mere pass dimagh nahi hai ??????

Our previous govt. since the birth of Pakistan failed to take any advantage of these assets .... Take thar coal as example ... which are worlds 6th largest coal reserves and what are being done with them I am sure you are aware ... so I will be happy person since they will come out at least from the earth
 
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waise dose any pakistani member knows about as to what happenned to that crude oil found in punjab a few months back :pop:
 
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waise dose any pakistani member knows about as to what happenned to that crude oil found in punjab a few months back :pop:

Our Govt will try its best to keep this safe for our next generation as usual .... no progress
 
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Central Asia is more easily linked to Iran And China than through Pakistan,

The article is Iran agrees to consider being part of CPEC - The Express Tribune is a bit misleading, the body gives much clear idea. Iran other than to link up with China by bypassing Afghanistan may not not have much incentives there on. rest post Iran Deal, Using Bandar Abbas is much more a stable route than of course Afghanistan And Karakorum. and more or less we are in the middle of a Geo economic and politic realignment things will be more clear few months down the line lets see how that pans out. But to tell the truth China benefits more in this than Pakistan.

Your first sentence depends on which particular Central Asian country you are talking about and both Gwadar and Chahabar will benefit in the long term because no single port can monopolize the whole market and this is agreed upon by most Iranian members on this defense site. Furthermore, Iran will has a desire to see CPEC successful because the province of sistan will become more stable and trade will increase between Pakistan, China and Iran in the long term. I would rather listen to the words of Javed Zarif than believe in your analysis.

waise dose any pakistani member knows about as to what happenned to that crude oil found in punjab a few months back :pop:

Pakistan has a number of gas and oil fields in the country, however the lobby is very strong in keeping this quite because a number of individuals are making huge kickbacks from importing oil from Saudi Arabia.
 
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Your first sentence depends on which particular Central Asian country you are talking about and both Gwadar and Chahabar will benefit in the long term because no single port can monopolize the whole market and this is agreed upon by most Iranian members on this defense site. Furthermore, Iran will has a desire to see CPEC successful because the province of sistan will become more stable and trade will increase between Pakistan, China and Iran in the long term. I would rather listen to the words of Javed Zarif than believe in your analysis.



Pakistan has a number of gas and oil fields in the country, however the lobby is very strong in keeping this quite because a number of individuals are making huge kickbacks from importing oil from Saudi Arabia.
@Vyom bhai take a look here :sarcastic:

waise whats the rate of petrol and disel in pakistan (lahore, islamabad & karachi)
 
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Seems a legit analysis.
However it can't be as dark as you paint it.
It will good if someone from our side gives a sane reply.
I'm no economic expert so the likes of me can be downplayed by your analysis.
Taking it with a pinch of namak.
A couple of points in addition to what the OP has written which was spot on:

1. The grand design of China is not only oil from the Middle East through Gwadar to Xinjiang but to establish a naval base there to dominate the Strait of Hormuz through which 45% of the world's seaborne oil shipments flow. In order to maintain and supply this naval fleet, the only viable option is via the CPEC. This logistics artery will also then allow the Chinese to dominate parts of East Africa, the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean. Gwadar has been handed over to China on a 40 year 'operational' lease which is extendable ad infinitum. In other words, all operations in Gwadar are now under Chinese control.

2. China is disposing off its coal based power plants as it has to lower its greenhouse gas emissions as per the norms agreed to. These coal fired plants would be shipped to Pakistan and needless to say, will be an environmental disaster. China wants to palm off its polluting industry to Pakistan for it to handle while it turns to non polluting nuclear power instead!

3. The cost per unit of electricity which would also include solar and wind power (both of which are frightfully expensive) would be between Rs 18 -20 PKR, putting into question affordability and viability.

4. The $11-billion amount for infrastructure purposes is a Chinese loan whereas the $35-billion investment for the power sector is yet to be converted into a concrete term sheet.

5. Though Pakistan will acquire a new asset in terms of infrastructure, it has to first mobilise its own industry and trade sectors to make the best use of the corridor. Else, it will be a road and pipeline largely meant for Chinese business – on Pakistan’s taxpayers’ cost – and protected by the Pakistan Army at Pakistan's cost.

6. The term-sheet for Chinese investment in the power sector does not seem very promising at the moment. The federal government’s sovereign guarantee has been called in several times by IPPs over the last few years. The Chinese most likely may not give it its due value.

7. The next alternative for them as a guarantee is a revolving letter of credit backed by the Pak government. That is almost a non-starter for the government as it will imply special privileges to Chinese investors and no bank can offer revolving letter of credit for the life cycle of a power project, running over decades.

8. If Pakistan cannot overcome its power crisis, and prepare a trade-centric economic vision, they stand to benefit little from PCEC in terms of additional business opportunities apart from temporary jobs.

9. Industrial parks and economic zones would be set up primarily for and by the Chinese. Except for restricted local rural employment, the profits of these companies which would be ploughed back to China.

10. A net rise in the import bill will result as land connectivity with China improves (especially under the operation of a Free Trade Agreement) which would mean mounting trade deficits for Pakistan. The cost of transportation from hubs in Pakistan to the Kashgar region would be an average of Rs 4 Lakhs PKR per 10-ton truck. Thus, transportation of low value Pakistani goods would be nonviable.

11. Further, a net increase in the import bill will only be a small part of the problem. Most of the envisioned projects will incur liabilities in foreign exchange (for capital and fuel imports, debt servicing, profit repatriation and wages), while their earnings will be in rupees; the currency mismatch, unless offset by a strong jump in exports, could prove to be a large drag on the country’s balance of payments position.

All in all, it's not as if 'rivers of gold' are about to flow in Pakistan as some Pakistani commentators have mentioned. The (CPEC) road ahead is not all hunky dory!

My two bits!
 
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@Vyom bhai take a look here :sarcastic:

waise whats the rate of petrol and disel in pakistan (lahore, islamabad & karachi)

Guru Dutt when your knowledge is non-existent on a particular subject, then its best to hush your gums instead of clapping your hands like a chura:) Now I did not exactly state in my previous message that Pakistan has the largest reserves of oil and gas in the world, however we have enough deposits to meet our own needs. The reason why this does not happen, because the government does not provide enough incentive for companies to explore and feasibly extract these resources, partly because a strong lobby is against it. You can ask other members to verify in what I am trying to say. Now if you cannot understand this fact, then please join a special school needs school:)

A couple of points in addition to what the OP has written which was spot on:

1. The grand design of China is not only oil from the Middle East through Gwadar to Xinjiang but to establish a naval base there to dominate the Strait of Hormuz through which 45% of the world's seaborne oil shipments flow. In order to maintain and supply this naval fleet, the only viable option is via the CPEC. This logistics artery will also then allow the Chinese to dominate parts of East Africa, the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean. Gwadar has been handed over to China on a 40 year 'operational' lease which is extendable ad infinitum. In other words, all operations in Gwadar are now under Chinese control.

2. China is disposing off its coal based power plants as it has to lower its greenhouse gas emissions as per the norms agreed to. These coal fired plants would be shipped to Pakistan and needless to say, will be an environmental disaster. China wants to palm off its polluting industry to Pakistan for it to handle while it turns to non polluting nuclear power instead!

3. The cost per unit of electricity which would also include solar and wind power (both of which are frightfully expensive) would be between Rs 18 -20 PKR, putting into question affordability and viability.

4. The $11-billion amount for infrastructure purposes is a Chinese loan whereas the $35-billion investment for the power sector is yet to be converted into a concrete term sheet.

5. Though Pakistan will acquire a new asset in terms of infrastructure, it has to first mobilise its own industry and trade sectors to make the best use of the corridor. Else, it will be a road and pipeline largely meant for Chinese business – on Pakistan’s taxpayers’ cost – and protected by the Pakistan Army at Pakistan's cost.

6. The term-sheet for Chinese investment in the power sector does not seem very promising at the moment. The federal government’s sovereign guarantee has been called in several times by IPPs over the last few years. The Chinese most likely may not give it its due value.

7. The next alternative for them as a guarantee is a revolving letter of credit backed by the Pak government. That is almost a non-starter for the government as it will imply special privileges to Chinese investors and no bank can offer revolving letter of credit for the life cycle of a power project, running over decades.

8. If Pakistan cannot overcome its power crisis, and prepare a trade-centric economic vision, they stand to benefit little from PCEC in terms of additional business opportunities apart from temporary jobs.

9. Industrial parks and economic zones would be set up primarily for and by the Chinese. Except for restricted local rural employment, the profits of these companies which would be ploughed back to China.

10. A net rise in the import bill will result as land connectivity with China improves (especially under the operation of a Free Trade Agreement) which would mean mounting trade deficits for Pakistan.

11. Further, a net increase in the import bill will only be a small part of the problem. Most of the envisioned projects will incur liabilities in foreign exchange (for capital and fuel imports, debt servicing, profit repatriation and wages), while their earnings will be in rupees; the currency mismatch, unless offset by a strong jump in exports, could prove to be a large drag on the country’s balance of payments position.

All in all, it's not as if 'rivers of gold' are about to flow in Pakistan as some Pakistani commentators have mentioned. The road ahead is not all hunky dory!

My two bits!


You have just copied and pasted an article from the internet, because I have read this analysis written by a Pakistan writer.
 
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Guru Dutt when your knowledge is non-existent on a particular subject, then its best to hush your gums instead of clapping your hands like a chura:) Now I did not exactly state in my previous message that Pakistan has the largest reserves of oil and gas in the world, however we have enough deposits to meet our own needs. The reason why this does not happen, because the government does not provide enough incentive for companies to explore and feasibly extract these resources, partly because a strong lobby is against it. You can ask other members to verify in what I am trying to say. Now if you cannot understand this fact, then please join a special school needs school:)
sirji itna gussaa :astagh:

waise tell me if successive goverments of NS & PPP were so corrupt and made a cut in every deal do you realli think they wont have had made something in this deal aswell :azn:

waise what are the avrage rates of petrol , diesel and CNG in pakistan ?
 
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You have just copied and pasted an article from the internet, because I have read this analysis written by a Pakistan writer.
Really? Show it! No Pakistani has said anything about a Chinese naval base, cost of electricity that the ordinary Pakistan would have to pay, polluting coal fired plants being palmed off to Pakistan by the Chinese, transportation costs over the CPEC and so on!

Instead, Pakistani writers have bent over backwards in describing the CPEC as a 'game changer' going to the extent of saying that Pakistan will soon become the next super power!! Oh yeah!

It's amusing to see how the Pakistanis are going all ga-ga over this project just because the Chinese are investing $34 billion (the remainder $11 billion is a loan by the Chinese at exorbitant interest rate) while the UAE is investing more than double that amount - $75 billion - in India and we're not dancing and jumping around like you guys are doing!

Anyways, all the best. :)
 
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Pakistan has a number of gas and oil fields in the country, however the lobby is very strong in keeping this quite because a number of individuals are making huge kickbacks from importing oil from Saudi Arabia.

However the question is how much exploitable reserves are there in those fields ?
Just as there is also evidence of Shale Gas in Pakistan, but the question is whether it is viable to extract and use it.

Similarly Pakistan has Lignite Coal reserves; but how suitable are they for the future Power Plants ?

There has already been extensive discussions on these matters on PDF. Our Esteemed co-member @niaz has the required expertise to explain the realities.
 
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sirji itna gussaa :astagh:

waise tell me if successive goverments of NS & PPP were so corrupt and made a cut in every deal do you realli think they wont have had made something in this deal aswell :azn:

waise what are the avrage rates of petrol , diesel and CNG in pakistan ?

Actually I feel wonderful because I am smoking a Cohiba, therefore I don't have a shred of anger in me. NS or Zardari have a huge number of shares in Lucky Cement which is Pakistan's biggest cement company and recently they won a contract for expansion. The increase in production is for projects in CPEC, therefore they are making money and disagreeing with such idea would be pointless. Currently I am in London, therefore I would not know the present price of diesel, petrol or CNG in Pakistan.
 
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It's amusing to see how the Pakistanis are going all ga-ga over this project just because the Chinese are investing $34 billion (the remainder $11 billion is a loan by the Chinese at exorbitant interest rate) while the UAE is investing more than double that amount - $75 billion - in India and we're not dancing and jumping around like you guys are doing!

Anyways, all the best. :)
What else you are exactly doing by showing off these figures here if its not so called dancing? If CPEC doesn't have any significance than why bother with it and cry rivers?
 
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What else you are exactly doing by showing off these figures here if its not so called dancing? If CPEC doesn't have any significance than why bother with it and cry rivers?
by same logic why things like poverty or growth in india makes memebrs like chachhaa @RiazHaq "muse" over it and then all pakistani members join in to make fun of India :azn:
 
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