Vixen-1000E AESA with IRST showcased at IDEAS

[Tank131]

Pakistan also wasn't allowed to modify the F-16 to drop nuke bombs. We know how that ended up. Nothing can be ruled out because not all F-16s are obliged to stringent usage constraints.

Big difference between 80s/90s and now is the block 50/52s are under lock and key of US personnel who give access to PAF when it wants to us the aircraft. Not sure if same foe the mlu, but you can rest assured that moding them now with new radars against US wishes will be very problematic for any future military exchange (aid/sale). Now we know that Pakistan is unlikely to get any big items again from US, but it still recieves small yet important items here and there.

 

[The SC]

vixen comes in with IRST though, which i think is a must

China can do that with KLJ-7A too, it has it on J-10:

 

[khanasifm]

Exaggeration !!!!!!!! ????? Lock and key !!!!#

Typical Desi style half truth

UOTE="Tank131, post: 8949167, member: 172585"]Big difference between 80s/90s and now is the block 50/52s are under lock and key of US personnel who give access to PAF when it wants to us the aircraft. Not sure if same foe the mlu, but you can rest assured that moding them now with new radars against US wishes will be very problematic for any future military exchange (aid/sale). Now we know that Pakistan is unlikely to get any big items again from US, but it still recieves small yet important items here and there.[/QUOTE]

 

[MastanKhan]

Yes, radar integration is essential. I am not an engineer but I think technically it may be possible to have radar and links to be separate but I do not yet know if there exist such a solution, I may be mistaken. ARH missiles use a shielded rear pointing antenna while aircraft have a number of hardware based high power directional links to send commands which are deeply integrated with/in radar. I think the main issue is always to make guidance jam and spoofing proof etc..

The most important question is, will Chinese be ready to share finer details of an AAM which a significant portion of their fleet rely on with a western manufacturer. Or will this give serious heartburns to some in Beijing even if such info gets shared accidentally. On the other hand, if Chinese are not ready to share kinematics data or radio link protocols, will a western manufacturer be ready to allow Chinese to get near their radar systems to provide requisite integration.

Also, All AESAs are not born equal and are greatly dependant on the technology of their TRMs as well as choices of TRM antennas and their density for the amount of gain they can provide. Most older AESAs as well as new russian Zhuk one carry a flat panel antenna mimicking the older slotted array in terms of gain. F-35, Elta series and to some degree Rafale's is touted to have TRM antennas to provide best density and gain. What antenna types and density Chinese AESAs carry, I have absolutely no idea..

Although when it come to the world of procurement, with so much money at stack as well as pre-existing prejudices, anything is possible but for a pointer to possible choice of a radar I'll point you to a couple of promotional videos PAF released earlier. In one of those an officer says that we presently have TWO on TWO but will prefer to have FOUR on FOUR...

On IRST..
Most pilots are basically operators.. but to manufacture a platform and to keep it going further PAF had to learn sort of 'grand parenting' a platform solution. I had opined earlier that FLIR currently is more important than IRST, that was before info on turkish pod was released to the press.
With IRST you can do detection, with a coupled FLIR cum laser solution you can produce a fire control solution provided you have an appropriate missile for this as well which does have required 'extended range'. Currently Rafale is capable of this with MICA. F-35 do look to have incorporated this hardware above nose but AIM-9X ext3 was put on freeze, so no idea what it will be coupled with.
I think that provided PAF gets its way it will try to take more of a IRST cum FLIR route rather than pure IRST route..

Hi,

A great post----a few days ago I mentioned about " all T/R modules are not created equal ".

I would request a little more detailed reply from our colleague here @messiach.
Thank you.

 

[Khafee]

That was before the ERA of stringent digital and encrypted locks on sensitive equipment of F-16. Now if you try to modify equipment, the encryption on devices will render it inoperable and alerting USA as well that someone is trying to modify their hardware illegally

There are always two sides to a story.

Big difference between 80s/90s and now is the block 50/52s are under lock and key of US personnel who give access to PAF when it wants to us the aircraft. Not sure if same foe the mlu, but you can rest assured that moding them now with new radars against US wishes will be very problematic for any future military exchange (aid/sale). Now we know that Pakistan is unlikely to get any big items again from US, but it still recieves small yet important items here and there.

Pure "A Grade" BS.

 

[Basel]

Doubt it as technically maintenance will become a nightmare. As @Bilal Khan (Quwa) said it is most likely one or the other which will be chosen. Imust confess I like the amalgamated IRST OF THE Raven. Perhaps if we pushed hard enough the Chinese might come out with a KLJ7A with IRST. Since a lot of the inventory is Chinese I think PAF will continue on with the Chinese AESA .
A

It's very possible and there will be no logistic issues because PAF have maintained well in similar situations, it will allow more variety, weapons systems and punch that will allow PAF to handle / defend well against any non 5th gen fighter jets threat from India (including Rafael), different type of avionics make them difficult to jam or spoof.

 

[messiach]

Active radar (active radar +/- passive radiation) homing uses AESA built into the long range chinese AAMs. Post INS phase, missile AESA takes over. Highly differiantiated & miniaturised AESA exsists for these AAM's. Most Tranciever modules (T&R) are build similarly, controlled through complex multiplexed algorithms coded into individual T&R PPUs.

Hi,

A great post----a few days ago I mentioned about " all T/R modules are not created equal ".

I would request a little more detailed reply from our colleague here @messiach.
Thank you.

 

[MastanKhan]

Active radar (active radar +/- passive radiation) homing uses AESA built into the long range chinese AAMs. Post INS phase, missile AESA takes over. Highly differiantiated & miniaturised AESA exsists for these AAM's. Most Tranciever modules (T&R) are build similarly, controlled through complex multiplexed algorithms coded into individual T&R PPUs.

Hi,

Thank you for your post---maybe---a little more about the tranceiver modules---are the chinese matching the technology or still 5 years behind in the T/R module!

 

[FuturePAF]

Raven 1000E at Ideas 2016 raises the chances the Saudi deal could happen. PAF/PAC are probably already working on a Euro-equipped Variant at least on paper. I hope they are try to get some or all of the following six things:

1. EW/ECM/ECCM equipment (Top Priority) possibly a GAN based Jammer or AESA based DRFM Jammer pods
2. Avionics (Sensor Fusion) where needed (the Chinese have good tech now; but European sensor fusion can help)
3. Latest Data links (secure Comms)
4. a new gun (while this issue hasn't been raised; a European gun can help when it comes to shaving off some weight)
5. And If this is an issue; Manufacturing Equipment to make the JF-17s composite components at a higher quality (and thereby reducing the weight)
6. Last but definitely not least The Engine ; EJ-200 (Proven, Reliable, tactical superior to the Rd-93

Unlike the Rd-93; which is a dead end design the Ej-200 has room for growth (Possibly more heat in dry then the rd-93 has in reheat)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurojet_EJ200#Variants

If money becomes tight; PAF could procure 30-40 Euro-equipped JF-17 with Full EW suite along side 210-220 Chinese equipped JF-17 similar to how the EA-18 Growler Does with the US Navy's F-18s.

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/twin-st-jf17.jpg?w=624

PAF will then be able to challenge Enemy Anti-Access systems (Air Defenses) more effective by going onwards to Strategies the Following.

A True Force Multiplier (Enemy C4ISR nodes would be vulnerable when their defense on land, air and at sea can be electronically countered and either suppressed & bypassed or destroyed Electronically or Kinetically)

IF PAC/PAF builds these two variants it will get great operational experience and can join any 5th gen program with unique experience to contribute; as well as finally ending the dependence on the F-16 to form the high end of the PAF

 

[araz]

It's very possible and there will be no logistic issues because PAF have maintained well in similar situations, it will allow more variety, weapons systems and punch that will allow PAF to handle / defend well against any non 5th gen fighter jets threat from India (including Rafael), different type of avionics make them difficult to jam or spoof.

I base my ssumptions on how quickly PAF has moved to modify the avionics of the older 16s and even with the recent order did not ask for the SABR radar. I do understand the necessity to upgrade older hardware fully.
Similarity has many advantages including in training and ease of use. I just bought a newer car and the difference between it and my older car still confuses me. Minor differences mean delay and delays in air battle cost lives.
So my bet is on one or the other. However both products including the ones currently in use will be utilized to appease customer demand.
A

 

[messiach]

Hi,

Thank you for your post---maybe---a little more about the tranceiver modules---are the chinese matching the technology or still 5 years behind in the T/R module!

They are at parity with russian and western radar manufacturers. Quoting here a phazotron colleague from 2005, in chengdu, who has worked on FGA series radars.

T&R modules. (I was mostly involved in axel engineering). AESA tranciever modules - PA subsytem is GaN which provides high breakdown voltages, DA subsystem is GaN/GaAs/SiGe based has lower power requirements than PA, SiGe is used when output power requirement is low or intermittent, LNA subsystem is GaAs/GaN/SiGe based has low noise figure, GaAs has lower breakdown voltage, GaN can withstand higher voltage leak but has low noise figure, SiGe is intermediate. Reciever protectors typically use PiN diode limiters in GaAs. Phase-shifters are either GaAs/SiGe, GaAs has high third order intercept -IP3 and SiGe offers additional functionality due to compact size and temperature dispensation.

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

These pics are from ILA Berlin June this year.

View attachment 355321
Captor - AESA Radar

and i am watching the cars parked in the background

 

[Falgrine]

and i am watching the cars parked in the background

I was at ILA Berlin airshow this June. These pics were taken from inside one of the exhibition halls.
Indians also had a presence there

 

[MastanKhan]

They are at parity with russian and western radar manufacturers. Quoting here a phazotron colleague from 2005, in chengdu, who has worked on FGA series radars.

T&R modules. (I was mostly involved in axel engineering). AESA tranciever modules - PA subsytem is GaN which provides high breakdown voltages, DA subsystem is GaN/GaAs/SiGe based has lower power requirements than PA, SiGe is used when output power requirement is low or intermittent, LNA subsystem is GaAs/GaN/SiGe based has low noise figure, GaAs has lower breakdown voltage, GaN can withstand higher voltage leak but has low noise figure, SiGe is intermediate. Reciever protectors typically use PiN diode limiters in GaAs. Phase-shifters are either GaAs/SiGe, GaAs has high third order intercept -IP3 and SiGe offers additional functionality due to compact size and temperature dispensation.

Hi,

Thank you for a wonderful insight---now I have to translate it into english---.

Seems like the western manufacturers have taken too long to capture the JF17 market with a potent product---and that has given the chinese time to get their act together.

So---my question to you is--- ---" between the western and the chinese---can the Paf bet its life and the life on the nation on this chinese AESA system ".

 

[royalharris]

Hi,

Thank you for a wonderful insight---now I have to translate it into english---.

Seems like the western manufacturers have taken too long to capture the JF17 market with a potent product---and that has given the chinese time to get their act together.

So---my question to you is--- ---" between the western and the chinese---can the Paf bet its life and the life on the nation on this chinese AESA system ".

Choose Whatever you like!
Can paf bet its life on jf17?basiclly,it is a product from CAC of china?
Can't understand so many Funny guy with such funny question