ashokdeiva
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- May 5, 2011
- Messages
- 4,266
- Reaction score
- 0
if you do not fall for the seven deadly enemies of man, then you are at peace.
Those deadly enemies are
1) Pride
2) Envy
3) Hatred
4) Greed
5) wrath
6) sloth
7) lust
VIEW: Success lies in secularism Dr Irfan Zafar
- Thread starter EjazR
- Start date
if you do not fall for the seven deadly enemies of man, then you are at peace.
Those deadly enemies are
1) Pride
2) Envy
3) Hatred
4) Greed
5) wrath
6) sloth
7) lust
Dear ashokdeiva, thank you for stating the these values but these are common values of all religions and if you read my posts I started with these values. They are but not sufficient on their own to bring peace because they are only a part of a link of a chain or mechanism for bringing the peace to the world.
I stated freedom, justice, fairness,compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity for mankind as islamic values. The mechanism is their propagation because without we telling each other these things how would any of us know our stance? If I am looking for peace and you are looking for peace then all we need is talk to each other and agree on terms for peace. I explained that already. You see my friend islam tells this right in the very first chapter of the quran and at the beginning of the next. Problem solved.
What are the terms? That you and I agree on this fact that God created all this and it is his advice that we care and share whatever he has set out there for us.
Why is this important? Because we are physical being and have physical needs and desires so if we let each other and help each other fulfil our needs and reasonable desires then where does war come into it?
Can you see why quran is different? The quran begins with formula BISMILLA ie In the name of Allah and who is Allah? The beneficent, the merciful.
Now look at stupidity of mullahs who interpret the quran in such a way that this Allah of quran seems a monster hell bend on doing terrible things to people himself and by people to people as well.
This is a clear lie that muslims and other people attribute to the quran and God. This contradict the very teaching of the quran. They say fear God as if he is a monster. The quran means fear consequences that are set up as part of divine system.
The context of the quran is very simple, Allah created people with free will with set rule of consequences and gave them all they will ever need to use it as they please but advised them how they should use it so that they are all satisfied.
This is how the quran proves beyond a shadow of doubt that what it tells us makes clear sense no ifs and buts.
There is a lot of use of words like hellfire and punishment in the quran. The context is consequence ie you put your hand in burning fire you get burnt. So don't put your hand in the burning fire. There is not a single verse in the quran that shows that Allah is the one who punishes people for no reason at all. The quran talks about self inflicted harm by people themselves. It is because either they do not do what they need to do or they do what they are told not to do and the result is pain and suffering.
The reason Allah attributes these things to himself is because he is God ie he lets us do all these things good or bad through free will. If I put my hand in fire and burn it, I will suffer the pain but was it Allah who done this to me or was it I myself? It was me but I could not have done it if Allah did not let me do it by way of freewill. Your parents create you and teach you good things and then let you go your own way. You cannot blame them for your wrong actions against their advice can you? Why Allah created us with free will? That was his choice, we were not there to object. After he created us it was too late. So rather than arguing over whether Allah should have created us or not the better things to do will be to live the best we can.
I hope my these explanations help all my friends here to see what the quran is all about. Please do not be hesitant to bring any questions you may have about the quran, islam or mullahs or muslims.
I know what people say about islam and quran and the prophet but it is all due to their own ignorance and ignorance of mullahs to which they react. I am with you in condemning all wrongs in the name of the quran and islam.
JIHAAD is making effort in knowing the message of islam properly and propagating it to others properly. There is no fighting in islam unless one is stopped from this freedom of thought and expression. If you look back I said freedom is the first thing islam stands for and then justice.
These kurta, pajaama, daadhi, lota mullahs have no idea what islam is because they are brought about to serve purpose of those who pay for them. True muslim scholars are those who study islam properly for themselves and help others know it properly. The rest are not scholars of islam just because they have degrees from recognised religious or secular institutions. I have yet to see any phd to prove clearly beyond a shadow of doubt the quran is wrong in any thing it states.
Even any muslim is invited to prove his make beliefs from the quran I can assure you they cannot. They can bring any mullah of their choice to debate.
The quran states that there is no any inconsistency within it or between the quran and the real world out there 4/82. I have already stated the set formula for its interpretation therefore it is like a mathematical proposition. You have numbers and rules and a practical situation or problem to solve, follow the rules and you have the answer. It is simple as that.
The real problem as I see it is that anti islam lobby is very strong both within muslim world and the nonmuslim world. Only Allah knows how islam can be successful under these circumstances because all odds are stacked against islam yet it is still there as good as ever challenging us all. This is nothing less than a big surprise.
Hope things make better sense, God bless and all the best.
Last edited by a moderator:
ashokdeiva
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- May 5, 2011
- Messages
- 4,266
- Reaction score
- 0
See my friend, you might try to tell all the good in Quran, but you never knew the Gita or the Bible, untill you make a detailed analysis of all the other holy books, you can not say that Quran is the only book that teaches human beings of values and ethics and consequences of sin. Every other religious books teaches the same, but in different chapters.
Over thousands of years of evolution, we have come accros merciful humans like Budha, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, etc. they did not follow Quran but do they not hold a place in Hevan for what they have contributed to the society.
What you are suggesting is that follow the old world and we can all live in peace, but what I suggest is, develop tolarance and respect for others and their belief and be secular.
If as per everyones belief, if God is immortal and if he lives through the ages and can wield time, why did he not guide the people of other religion to follow the Quran in the first place, what bigger job does he have more than managing us. why is he not showing up when he is required. He was required when your Muslim Talibs beheaded 16 of your Muslim police man(atleat one of the Police men should have belived in the Quran). why did not the God come to his rescue, if God has been there why is he allowing man to commit sin. Is he waiting for the sinner to die and come to his court for judgement?
I am a man who lives the present and plan for the future, but do not dwel in the past. until I am alive, my moto is to do my job, earn a living for my family and help the needy with atleast 2% of my anual salary. Doing so I am not seeking a place in the hevan which I don't know exist. I do it to feel that I have done some thing good to the society when I breath my last breath.
And as far as religion is considered, no one has ever met God personaly and did not get advice from him to make sure only one religion servives. so lets cut the crap there and look into humanity and values that we do for the people who are in need.
and as far as Janubaba is considered, I hope he is not mature enough to understand what human values is, he acts emotionally not using his inteligence. There is a chance if I insult Prophet SAW in this forum, he might go the extent that he will get a visa and visit my place to kill me. I have least respect for people who act emotionally.
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you dear ashokdeiva for sharing your thoughts. I have read bible, geeta, mahabharata, puranas, upanishads, manu smriti, avesta. guru granth, dassam granth a few decades back in 70s. This should have been obvious from my posts. I know the overall message in them that is why I said their source is same in values but the kings corrupted them to fool their people and used them as tools to do what they were stopped from.
The quran too was attacked by muslim kings and their priests and that is why it too was deconstructed into mythical book which is obvious in its translations and interpretations. However the wording in the quran is such that it comes through if one concentrates according to set rules of interpretations like mathematical formulas. Anyone can do a sum but when you check it against the set rules, it becomes obvious whether the sum was done correctly or someone was just playing with numbers.
These values are permanent and these terms are permanent because without them we are not better than animals. If you read my posts I talked about social darwinianism and capitalism. I know what future is going to be if we follow zero sum game rather than none zero sum game.
You put food on table fine and you contribute to society fine but what is the overall effect of bad ideologies? It is like we are trying to fetch water from a well in a container that has a big hole at the bottom.
The poor are becoming poorer and wealthy are becoming wealthier and black economy, bribery, profiteering and all the rest of it which you know as well as I, are making it useless whatever little we earn and contribute for the betterment of society. Concerned people are trying to put things into the human society but people who are coming up with animalistic ideologies, systems, structures and practices are taking it out and are ruining things for a big population of humanity.
If what we have in place worked better then things would have changed for the better but instead overall they are changing for worse. One only has to see how many people are going without living necessities never mind luxuries.
You said if you insulted our prophet someone would kill you but we are killing people for opening their mouth against secularism, democracy, capitalism and all the rest of it. What it shows is ignorance of people.
Prophets and reformers for humanist values cannot be insulted because they have permanent respectable positions. Anyone throwing abuse at them is only showing one's own ignorance. If you raise your voice for me and I start insulting you myself, where is sense in that for me?
I know why people insult great people because they have been misrepresented. If a muslim tells you that his prophet was a child molester, why would you respect him? If a muslim tells use that person raped so many women, why would you respect him? No person in the right mind wold respect such a person. In fact anyone respecting any such person who has done or does all sorts of wrong thing in the name of god is not a human at all.
The problem is that people say a lot of things about a lot of people but we need to ensure that that is true before we take things that way.
All divine scriptures warn us that wolves come in sheep clothing. People attribute lies to God and his agents. So the first and foremost thing we must do is find out if what is attributed to God or his prophet is actually true or not. If it is not true then why some one invented these lies and why some one attributed them to God or his messengers? Who benefits from spreading misinformation, disinformation, mistrust, distrust, suspicion and animosity to these great people?
The quran is clear that divine messengers came, they put people on the right tracks and passed away. Not long after them some people from amongst their own so called followers took it upon themselves to corrupt what they put in place and began doing same things as they did before the prophets.
Same happened in time of last prophet. He set up a divine kingdom and his followers after his death started conspiring against it and brought it down. The family of prophet was murdered in cold blood by his own so called followers and the system was changed back to imperialism.
The propaganda machinery was brought in by these muslim emperors to molest the name of the prophet in the very name of his teachings. All this was done by their priests in order to provide basis for them as muslim rulers and to justify what they did in the name of islam ie wars, slavery, plunder, rape etc etc.
If you look at muslim history there came about a movement called TAREEQAT movement. Ask any muslim what it was? They do not know but that it is PEERI MUREEDI in our part of the world. It is also muddled with sufi-ism. What happened was that once islam was attacked from within and was suppressed people went underground and started passing message of islam through personal contacts. Because it became very dangerous to preach truth in face of kings. The quran does not allow class divide and kings could not become kings without pushing islam out of their way so when these people came into power they removed their opponents and so the opponents had no choice but to go under ground to continue their movement. Once upon a time even this became impossible because the system became penetrated by imperialists so it was neutralized. It became what we see today. A lot of peers making fool of muslims by telling them pies in the sky.
However, odd muslims kept islam alive like a pilot light. It is because of that I am interacting with you today.
This should explain very clearly where does a lot of islamic material originates from. The islam that is spread world wide is imperial reconstruction of islam. If you read sir seyyed ahmed khan you will come to know it. if you read dr iqbal you will come to know it if you listen to speaches of mr jinnah you will come to know it. If you listen to lectures of mr parwez you wil come to know it and if you read my posts you will come to know it.
You will therefore have to ask yourself, what do kings and ruling elite want out of life? That is why they do all they do. In order to get support from ignorant masses they get their mullahs to do their dirty work. It is these mullahs who wrote muslim history and many islamic books that tell lies about God and the prophets.
Islam=peace but kings could not become kings without wars so they ensured islam means war. Islam means wisdom but kings ensured people are ignorant and superstitious because that way they could use them as their hunting dogs.
The same is found in histories of all religion and people. Kings were all alike using and abusing their own people to get what they wanted. That is the mentality that is very dangerous. This is why an indian abuses an indian and a pakistani feels no qualms abusing a paksitani. A hinus abuses a hindu and a muslim a muslim. It is dog eat dog world out their and humans are acting like dogs. Tearing each other apart over what?
Secularism is therefore dangerous because it serves the powerful elite by keeping under classes in their places. Hinduism is vulnerable in two way because it has a caste system as well beside class divide.
It is a false hope that secularism and democracy will change things for the better because power remains firmly in the hands of the powerful. That is survival of the fittest. I win you lose. Therefore our little bit contributions only make us feel good but they cannot bring the sea changes that are needed for betterment of mankind throughout the world.
Banks and multinationals are owned by powerful families the rest only sign at the bottom line on the agreement because otherwise their livelihood is not possible. The terms of all agreement are dictated by the powerful. So only a foolish person will think he is going anywhere with these like systems and structures in place and with these like practices.
May be I am much older than you and have seen the world for what it really is over at least several decades and my experience is much more deeper and wider of things.
I am living in the real world that is why I am explaining things in detail that cannot be refuted. All because truth and facts speak for themselves. Regardless one is hindu or muslim, indian or pakistani, black or white.
You have also raised questions about God should have done this or that, is that going to solve anything? As I explained already God is also a thinking being and the one who has the power of choice according to all holy books, he chose to do what he has done just like me or you. You can ask him when you see him, why he advised you instead of you advising him.
The quran tells us that if he chose us to advise him then things would have been utter chaos. I do not see myself fit to be adviser to god I am happy that he is my adviser instead.
http://www.awaztoday.com/playshow/15781/Shahid-Naama-19th-July-2011.aspx
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/us-betting-on-india-says-hillary-in-chennai/205644?from=NDTV
God bless and all the best.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dr. NooB NinjA
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 549
- Reaction score
- 0
Do you know what SECULARISM means??? Or it means something different where u did your high schooling??? There are no versions of secularism, not mine or yours or anyone else s.... And when and where did i abuse ISLAM.... Have the highest regards for Islam and ALL the other religions and beliefs....
Dr. NooB NinjA
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 549
- Reaction score
- 0
What is Secularism
Secularism: A definition | National Secular Society
What is Secularism?
What is secularism? | Workers' Liberty
Secularism is not the same as modernity | Lois Lee | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-debates.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-index.html
Secularism: A definition | National Secular Society
What is Secularism?
What is secularism? | Workers' Liberty
Secularism is not the same as modernity | Lois Lee | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-debates.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-index.html
Last edited by a moderator:
ashokdeiva
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- May 5, 2011
- Messages
- 4,266
- Reaction score
- 0
a Mughal1, simple and effective answer is, do good and do not envy others for their belives. that will make the plannet a better place and Religion will worsen things as it has always been.
Thank you dear ashokdeiva for your advice but if you could kindly bear with me for the explanation, hope it will help.
The world in which we live people have their own definitions of good and evil, beneficial and harmful. It is for this reason we cannot build a better world if we do not first of all agree on what is good or bad and why? What is good for you is not necessarily good for me hence the need for international or global moral standard. Both religious and secular standard are zero sum game standards therefore both of them are destructive for humanity. Why? Because by this standard if anyone wins then someone has to lose and there is no middle way.
This is why understanding islam is vital not only for muslims but for nonmuslims as well because Islam is the only moral rule of law that sets none zero game standard permanently regardless of creed, race, gender, colour or geographical origin. It sets standard for material world because humans are material beings. The very survival of humanity depends on clean air to breath, clean water to drink and good food to eat. We will not witness anyone living without any of these necessities of life nor one can.
This shows that beliefs come after your existence and self preservation. Without life necessities life becomes unstable and cannot be sustained therefore first thing first and the quran is the only book in the world that addresses needs of man before anything else. So anything any of us believes or does if it goes against that then that is unacceptable regardless you or I like it or not. It is declaration of war on humanity if one tries to control living necessities of others. There are no nicer words to express this. You or either with me or against me. If you are with me these are my terms what are yours? Can you see my point dear friend?
So anyone who believes or does anything that is geared towards harming others for sure is not acceptable to me and it should not be acceptable to you either or for that matter to anyone else who has brains if we all wish to get along. This is why islam is the best form of secularism in sense of being worldly wise as well as in spiritual sense ie being God conscious. Islam did not come 1400 years back but it is final version of it which is clear if you have ever read the quran. The quran is far ahead of our time but one needs to study it to be able see beyond superfluous explanations.
It is for this reason we all must challenge each other to keep each other right and that is best way to ensure that world is moving in the right direction. We cannot allow each other to act in a destructive or harmful way or we are doomed. This is why the quran enjoins upon muslims to to keep an eye on society and keep encouraging what is beneficial and keep discouraging what is harmful. The harm is clearly defined by the quran ie anything that harms more than it benefits humanity as a whole. Islam is not about being a sinner or a saint but being a good citizen of the world or being a criminal and a rebel against set divine rule of law as defined fully by the quran for humanity without any discrimination.
The quran challenges humanity to bring a better universal standard than that which is set by the quran if you think it is not from God. So far this thread proves that regardless we own up to it or not. But we will be forced to acknowledge it in not too distant future. It is because the quran has already forecast that there is no rule of law that can stand on par with it rather islam will always be found to be on top of anything man brings forth as rule of law. As we live by our own set standards the world is going to be be worse and worse and ultimately people will be forced to live by the quran as it says or the other end of stick is total destruction if things are allowed to continue unchallenged.
Terrorism is effect of indiscriminate oppression and suppression of peoples' divine rights because the powerful is squeezing the life out of the weak and the poor. Where is sense in taking things away from people and then if they react to it you make wars on them and then if they fight back with whatever means they have then blaming them for causing harm to society? There is no society in that case and law of jungle becomes order of the day when some people push others in to corner for no reason at all other than to take away their livelihood.
Civilization means working together to build a better world not some taking it upon themselves to be masters of all the rest. So it is not that islam has declared war on people but some people have declared war on humanity and islam commands that people must fight back or they will suffer and perish.
Just as secularists claim that religious people have indoctrinated people so have secularists. The powerful people control media and release information as it suits them. That is what kings used to do through their priests and places of worship. It is therefore important that people have full information and ability to scrutinize things properly against set standards that cannot be disputed. It is only then we come to know the truth. We need to stop power struggles between various factions of humanity in the name of religion and secularism etc etc and concentrate on our moral bankruptcy and humanity. Ignoring concrete universal moral values is committing suicide in my view. Ignoring islamic rule of law is only going to prolong our pain and suffering. Islamic rule of law is not about rule of mullahs or the ruling elite. It is one standard for all, administration as well as the masses. There is no ruler nor any ruled but and organised human community getting on with life according to divine rules. It is up to community to decide who they would prefer to serve them and it is up to people who think they can serve that they should take on the responsibility the community wants them to shoulder.
As I have been making it clear we do not know islam, we only know what mullahs and ruling elite tell us about islam. The day we become aware of islam properly our reason will force us to have nothing but islam as our way of life. That is the only way we can ever live in peace=islam.
I am grateful that you my friends gave me opportunity to express my ideas and hope you people forgive me for short coming on my part.Hope it was a brotherly exchange of ideas because ideas breed ideas and by exchanging our views about things we learn from each other. May God bless us all with proper understanding of things so that we could help each other out of the mess we find ourselves in.
regards and all the best
Last edited by a moderator:
^^^You know you should really read some good book or go to source material to learn about history.
Listening to crack pots on youtube skews your reality and makes you believe in things that are not true. And then you start living in a fantasy world
For example, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan's role in Pakistan. Did you know that he died in 1898, even before the creation of Muslim League in 1905.
Here is an article for you to read from AMU alumnus, the university that he has setup with help from his Hindu freinds as well and whose first graduate was the son of a Hindu friend of his Ishwara Prasad.
Now with these quotes to ponder on, I hope you realize that you should be careful on what you hear on "maulana" youtube.
Listening to crack pots on youtube skews your reality and makes you believe in things that are not true. And then you start living in a fantasy world
For example, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan's role in Pakistan. Did you know that he died in 1898, even before the creation of Muslim League in 1905.
Here is an article for you to read from AMU alumnus, the university that he has setup with help from his Hindu freinds as well and whose first graduate was the son of a Hindu friend of his Ishwara Prasad.
aligarians: Sir Syed ~ nationalism and Hindu-Muslim unity
Now with these quotes to ponder on, I hope you realize that you should be careful on what you hear on "maulana" youtube.
Dear EjazR, would you be kind enough to tell me which of the works of sir seyyed ahmed khan you have read? Also are you a muslim, if so mazhabi or deeni. This will save me explaining things you may already know. Thanks and all the best.
Burger Boy
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2010
- Messages
- 471
- Reaction score
- 1
- Country
- Location
Last edited by a moderator:
Similar threads
