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VIEW: Success lies in secularism —Dr Irfan Zafar

No use of arguing on this baseless issue, Pakistan can never be a secular state, those who have these dreams should GET A LIFE, seriously, Pakistanis are much more into the religion than Turkish people were in Pre-Attaturk era, you try to change the constitution of Pakistan, next day that Parliament will be blown up, this is not to be confused with Terrorist of TTP of religious fanaticism but it's a common Pakistani who feels this way, just see, for example, the Government was forced to compromise on the Blasphemy law issue and it backed off, even after their own man was killed because of the same issue, actually their two leading politicians were killed. See the result? The way is very simple, Implement Islamic laws in Judiciary, Economy and Government, you'll feel the difference, the solution of Pakistan's every problem is true implementation of Islam.

Then we'll surely get rid of these foreign funded so called Taliban (TTP) and other religious extremist groups, becase then, they will have no reason to fight, this is just one aspect, there are many more problems which can be solved by this, i.e corruption, terrorism and injustice.

An entire generation has been corrupted at the mental level for over 66 years and what can you expect. implement the Islamic law, kill innocent people like Daniel Pearl in the name of God and say that he is a blashmer. Good for you guys. One day or the other some religious fanatic is going to occupy the throne of your country and going to fire a nuclear weapon at India and Isreal and get your people annihilated by the rest of the world.
 
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An entire generation has been corrupted at the mental level for over 66 years and what can you expect. implement the Islamic law, kill innocent people like Daniel Pearl in the name of God and say that he is a blashmer. Good for you guys. One day or the other some religious fanatic is going to occupy the throne of your country and going to fire a nuclear weapon at India and Isreal and get your people annihilated by the rest of the world.

Seriously, this explains your mental level and how much you have researched on the topic before presenting your 'expert opinion'.

The generation was 'corrupted' and that is the reason we made our own country in the name of ISLAM, people are as religious today as they were 66 years ago..

Islam prohibits killing of any human being except for in exchange of Murder or spreading corruption in the land, if Daniel Pearl was innocent, his murderers are grave sinners in the light of Qur'an and Hadith, and even Daniel Pearl was a MI-6 agent, as stated by Musharraf in his book, even then Islam doesn't allow every other group to form their own party and start executing people, this requires a proper Sharia'ah court proceedings and the execution can only be done by the State.

Now coming to other part of your senseless post, what if tomorrow a man like Col. Prohit forms a group in Indian Army and rebel? take over the government and fires a Nuke at us ? What then? See, I can speculate too, but I don't have a stupid piece of mind as you, Bharatis are awesome when it comes to conspiracy theories regarding Pakistani Nukes. :coffee:
 
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Pakistan at this stage can never be secular state. To my view, India should seal Pakistan Border on all front. The way extremism is rooted within each Pakistani we should learn some lessons. We should learn some lessons and try to stop this religion discussions out of politics and main stream. This gone backfire some or another day.

There is one universal truth. When you respect others, you own respect from them, else always expect hatred.
 
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Then we'll surely get rid of these foreign funded so called Taliban (TTP) and other religious extremist groups, becase then, they will have no reason to fight, this is just one aspect, there are many more problems which can be solved by this, i.e corruption, terrorism and injustice.


Foreign funded taliban? No reason to fight?

Contradicting yourself aren't you? If they are foreign funded, they would fight regardless. If you hope to appease them into not fighting, best of luck but at the very least, let go of the charade of them not being Pakistanis.
 
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Seriously, this explains your mental level and how much you have researched on the topic before presenting your 'expert opinion'.

The generation was 'corrupted' and that is the reason we made our own country in the name of ISLAM, people are as religious today as they were 66 years ago..
That is the problem that you guys did not change to the changing time, you should have grown more liberal by now accepting the way the World goes.
Islam prohibits killing of any human being except for in exchange of Murder or spreading corruption in the land, if Daniel Pearl was innocent, his murderers are grave sinners in the light of Qur'an and Hadith, and even Daniel Pearl was a MI-6 agent, as stated by Musharraf in his book, even then Islam doesn't allow every other group to form their own party and start executing people, this requires a proper Sharia'ah court proceedings and the execution can only be done by the State.

Oh wow you and your conspiracy, if agents are sent into hostile territory they are made sure that they do not have a family to think of a personal life and don't you know that Daniel was expecting a baby at the time of his murder and your muslim brothers whom you call sinners beheaded him and telecasted the video world wide that has to be seen by his wife with his unborn child in her woomb. you should put yourself in her shoes when you call Daniel as an agent. Musharaf accused Daniel as being an agent just to deceive the country men that what as muslims they have done is not against the Islamic rules.

Now coming to other part of your senseless post, what if tomorrow a man like Col. Prohit forms a group in Indian Army and rebel? take over the government and fires a Nuke at us ? What then? See, I can speculate too, but I don't have a stupid piece of mind as you, Bharatis are awesome when it comes to conspiracy theories regarding Pakistani Nukes. :coffee:

I hope you understand that we have a military setup that reports to the civilian Government via the president and the chief of the armed services can not meet individually with out the consent of the Commander in Chief. so there is no possibility that my country is going to that path but fanatics and irrational people are more in your country when compared to mine and i can see that in this forum itself
 
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Foreign funded taliban? No reason to fight?

Contradicting yourself aren't you? If they are foreign funded, they would fight regardless. If you hope to appease them into not fighting, best of luck but at the very least, let go of the charade of them not being Pakistanis.

In Pakistan today, some people sympathize TTP, just because they use name of Islam for their terrorism, they claim to be fighting for the Sharia'ah law, if Islam is fully implemented in Pakistan, they will lose their lil' support that they have now.
 
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That is the problem that you guys did not change to the changing time, you should have grown more liberal by now accepting the way the World goes.

That's none of Bharati business, leave that to us!


Oh wow you and your conspiracy, if agents are sent into hostile territory they are made sure that they do not have a family to think of a personal life and don't you know that Daniel was expecting a baby at the time of his murder and your muslim brothers whom you call sinners beheaded him and telecasted the video world wide that has to be seen by his wife with his unborn child in her woomb. you should put yourself in her shoes when you call Daniel as an agent. Musharaf accused Daniel as being an agent just to deceive the country men that what as muslims they have done is not against the Islamic rules.

Can you understand simple english, I explained you what Islam says about killing of a innocent, I never said that he was really a MI-6 agent, that's what Musharraf wrote in his books, to me in the light of Qur'an and Hadith, his killings were a crime and if there was a proper Sharia'ah set-up, and murderers were caught, the would have been beheaded in the same too.

I hope you understand that we have a military setup that reports to the civilian Government via the president and the chief of the armed services can not meet individually with out the consent of the Commander in Chief. so there is no possibility that my country is going to that path but fanatics and irrational people are more in your country when compared to mine and i can see that in this forum itself

Really? There are more rebellious movements in India than Pakistan, you want me to name them? I assume you're a teenager, you don't get the main point but always try to divert from the real topic, again, read my post again, It's all speculations, we too have a Command structure, National Command Authority is headed by the PM and all the decisions concerning Nukes are taken their, and it's not just the Military that is in control of the Nukes, it's a misconception people have, expecially Bharatis!
 
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Secularism is the failed system But System of Islam is from the creator of this universe and it is the best system for humanity and it will be implemented soon

please give examples of nations that have adopted the Islamic system that are economic and political successes????:pop:
 
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Pakistan at this stage can never be secular state. To my view, India should seal Pakistan Border on all front. The way extremism is rooted within each Pakistani we should learn some lessons. We should learn some lessons and try to stop this religion discussions out of politics and main stream. This gone backfire some or another day.

There is one universal truth. When you respect others, you own respect from them, else always expect hatred.

oh you're on quite the high-horse there....

if India truly was secular all these mass killings that have taken place against religious minorities wouldn’t be taking place, now would they? And if any person were to instigate such violence, the state would have briskly jumped in to stop them, instead of actively joining the pogrom (as happened in Gujarat).

You bhartis should build a secular india first and then claim a ''secular'' ethos.
 
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oh you're on quite the high-horse there....

if India truly was secular all these mass killings that have taken place against religious minorities wouldn’t be taking place, now would they? And if any person were to instigate such violence, the state would have briskly jumped in to stop them, instead of actively joining the pogrom (as happened in Gujarat).

You bhartis should build a secular india first and then claim a ''secular'' ethos.

Do you know he (arihant) is also a "minority" ?

Our Govt and constitution are essentially secular, but that doesn't give the minorities or any group to get on the back of the other community. Anywhere else in the world the same would have happened.
 
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How can you hold this position (or belief) when you know how the Ahmadiyya community is treated in Pakistan, including under Pakistani law?

-Do you know that a Ahmadi can get UK visa in no time?only thing that he has to proof is that he is Ahmedi.
-our bureaucracy is dominated by Ahmedis.
-now what type of treatment Ahmedis want from us
that want to identify themselves as muslims,they want that there place of worship will be called mosque etc etc
but we have objections to that because they are not muslims.why?because they don't believe that Prophet Muhammad (saw) was the last prophet of Allah.
now is this thing Pakistan specific?no
in this forum there are turks,arabs and malysian muslims.
ask any one can a person call himself muslim if he don't beleve Prophet Muhammad (saw) as last prophet.

this is the reality of prosecution of Ahmedis in Pakistan.
 
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i see here many liberals who claim that Jinnah wanted a secularist Pakistan.you people are no different than our mullahs who in-spite of having one quran make differences with each other to get their personal benefits.
you people chant Jinnah Jinnah Jinnah,but what about Iqbal,what about his vision of Pakistan.
if personalty of Jinnah became doubtful in sense that secularists and liberals say that Jinnah want this type Pakistan and religious one say Jinnah want this type of pakistan
so as a solution to this problem why not we should consult Iqbal?why not we go for Iqbal opinion of Pakistan.



also when things comes to shariat you people say we don't want shariat of Taliban.good,we also don't want that type of shariat
but what about "Your's" type of shariat.shariat proposed by Islam.
 
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My dear friends, islam is not a religion=mazhab, it is deen= rule of law.

All so called religions were originally rules of law.

Who turned them into religion=a set of dogmatic make beliefs and rituals and ritualistic laws? The answer is priestly classes. Who are priestly classes? The agents of rulers who created them to twist deen into mazhabs.

These people are wolves in sheep in clothing. They changed deen into religions and sects by first inventing wrong interpretations of their original divine scriptures and then they invented their own traditions about their prophets then they twisted them by their interpretations and then they invented laws.

Although the existing world scriptures are not divine in their origin save the quran but they most definitely are original traditions. These traditions certainly contain original divine messages within them along with rest of made up stuff.

Muslims have the quran and this is a unique book because it is the only book of its kind. It is direct revelation of God for mankind via the final prophet.

Muslims also have Ahadith collections or traditions about the prophet. These traditions are similar to religious scriptures of all other divine religions. That is because as the Ahadith are reports about the last prophet as to what he said or did about God, people and things so other scriptures are full of stories about their religious figures.

Using all these scriptures in light of the quran the original message can be rediscovered.

It can be proven from all the such scriptures that God is one. That he sent his message for mankind and the reason he sent it was to guide them as to how to behave with each other regarding land and resources, means of production and distribution and working together as per divine plan to make this world a paradise for all who live on this earth.

The quran is not about sin but crime of man against man because one man transgresses against the right of the other regarding material world in legal terms. The criminal must be made to face trial in this world if possible or one will have to face God in hereafter.

The question we all need to ask ourselves is, is my scripture originally divine and interpreted correctly?

How do we know?

Let me take for example the quran and the bible. If we read both of them, we will have no problem in seeing the differences. The bible is not like the quran just like Ramayana is not like the quran. Just as Ramayana is story of Raam and seeta so is bible a collection of stories by various jewish and christian sources. Mahabharat is alo similar that way save its part called geeta.

Puraanas are also hindu tradition and upanishad as well.

vedas too are collections of what the authors say about God and people. The same true about avesta the parsi scripture.

There is no any book in the world that is like the quran but there are books in the world that are like Ahadith and seerah=biography of the last prophet and islamic jurisprudence=shariah law by mullahs for muslim kings to rule people with iron fist.


We can know a lot about the quran and the real world from within the quran but only if we make effort to understand what it says by ensuring that we have interpreted it correctly.

Anyone is welcome to explain rules of interpretation of the quran. Not even muslims think about it that there are rules that one must follow to interpret the quran correctly. They just follow cumbersome tafaseer=interpretation books written by mullas to please their paymasters.

No muslim bothers to see if what they say is true or not.

These tafaseer books are single volumes as well as multi volumes. The most combersome is HADAAIK in 500 five hundred volumes.
Unfortunatelty it is mostly full of make beliefs and useless stories we can call them myths, legends, superstition along with some useful information.

The case is similar with almost all tafaseer beginning with the very first by Ibn Jareer tabri in 30 volumes. These people were as if collectors of information without actually scrutinizing it to see if it was really worthy to be used as explanantion of the quran.

They instead of explaining the quran tangled it like a net tangles the prey. After a while people were no longer allowed to speak against these so called scholars starting with imaam ghazaali after whom islam never recovered. He killed rational thinking in muslims by opposing ibn sina and ibn rushd.

The debate was not lost but suppressed forcefully by imperialist forces from within islamic tradition and here we are today thanks to these like people pushed forth forcefully nonsense in the name of islam.

Had they been real scholars of islam they would have taught muslims rules of interpretations of the quran which proved the quran divine but instead through backing of kings they brought forth blind faith concept and we are still fighting to get ourselves rid of it.

Individuals who raised their voice against blind faith idea were pushed aside and they had no resources that were available to kings and their mullahs so they won the day and real islam remained hidden from the masses always.

However when islam is brought out, there is hardly anyone who could disagree that it is rational and to the point.

Sir seyyed ahmed khan is famous because he challenged mullahs of his time on interpretation of the quran. They called him kafir but were unable to refute him.

Iqbal followed his foot steps and gave us idea that islam as it was deconstructed by muslim imperialists can be reconstructed again. He too was condemned for a while but survived. Ghulam ahmed parwez took this traditon further and produced an interpretation that is still chalenging mullahs but condemn they must rather than learn some sense.

The real scholars of islam always kept door of criticism of islam and muslims opened so that we learn from our mistakes and correct ourselves but they were forced into silence because as kings used to dictate in the past what islam is today ruling elite and mullahs work together to push out anyone who disagrees with them. Still cannot face the challenges though.

Today things are a bit different ie education is spread around the world and a lot more people criticise mullahs so they are dragged along. This will continue till mullahs give up or education again becomes thing of the past which is unlikely because jinn is out of the bottle.

I rather have mullahs being beaten sense into them than left alone to cause mischief.

Pakistan is fully in control of ruling elite and mullahs and they are helping each other to keep it that way. Masses deserve what they are getting because if anyone tells them what is right for them they go for him and protect those very people who use and abuse them.

They keep voting into office the very people who are ruining the country. Until people learn to stick together and support each other in getting rid of top lot from all the positions of power regardless army or civil service and make changes to the system to stop abuse and corruption nothing will change in pakistan.

Only islam has the answer and that islam is not islam of mullahs but of founder of pakistan.

Mullahs' islam is all about pagdi, kurta, pajaama and daadhi. If you don't have daadhi you are not an islamic scholar or even a muslims according to some of them.

They do not take daadhiless man as muslims leader. They need to be and should be educated out of their make beleif islam.

I wonder if any mullahs is able to define sunnah of the prophet. I have not come across even a single one. Why not educate me about it if anyone knows what sunnah is?

For nonmuslims, please learn islam from the quran yourselves and don't listen to mullahs regarding islam because their interpretation of islam is incorrect.

For muslims, please question your make beliefs, you will find no evidence for believing what you believe islam to be on the basis of mullahs. They have no understanding of islam at all and they are misleading you as well. Start learning the quran yourselves, you owe it to yourselves.

Surah Al Nuh, not noor as labelled by mistake.



‪aamirkhanbaba1947's Channel‬‏ - YouTube
 
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Islam-ism is a defeated, immoral idea which does not have the support of the people - because in reality it's a totalitarian ideology, barbarous and murderous in it's ethic - and so people are really afraid of it - after all, look at the example of the promoters of Islami-ism on the thread, murder and killing is what they imagine is Islam, can they be right?

Unfortunately Muslims of Pakistan do not yet have the confidence to answer this question in the negative?
 
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