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VIEW: Success lies in secularism —Dr Irfan Zafar

TTP are fighting for their Islam and Pounjabi Sepah e Sahaba and Lashkar e Jhangvi and etc ect are all fighting for their islam -- Baloch and Sindhi and so called Mohajir are fighting for what they call "Justice"

All this fighting because Islamist Pakistan is a fundamentally unjust society -- but wait - Is Islam unjust?? No?? Well how come so much injustice in the name of Islam?? remember Tehreek e INSAAF (justice)????

Either ALL are equal or no one is equal, Either all are Pakistani or no one is - this is the message loud and clear, for those who would listen.
 
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This duality arises when religion is followed as a form of governance. Mullah's or priests or bishops, whoever they are will always be human and prone to human follies. Their interpretation of the religion and subsequent imposition of the same on common people is dangerous and can in many cases overpower the authority of civilian elected representatives.

Dear Vibs, islam is anti priestly class as well as anti ruling class, it is all for freedom of individuals to make up their own minds as to how they want to live. It gives principles that in divine wisdom will always prove unchallengeable. Islam is all about freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity for humanity as a whole. It is one standard for all no discrimination on basis of anything else. All laws in any governing system must be subordinate to these principles. Anything else is in clash with islam and unacceptable.

Islam has declared war on anything that divides humanity. If we read the quranic text, the first chapter is called AL_FAATIHA= the proclamation. An agreement between God and humanity. Allah sent his messenger to proclaim to humanity in his name that he is beneficent and merciful. This is very first verse of the very first chapter of the quran.

He further tells his messenger to tell people that sovereignty only and only belongs to Allah because he is the creator and the sustainer of the universe. he then again tells him to say that he is gracious and merciful.

He then tells his messemger to tell people that because Allah is merciful, creator, sustainer and provider for all that he decided to guide humanity therefore he sent his goals and guidelines for humanity to judge all that they do thereby so that everything works out fine for them.

These are first four verses of the quran.

Then he tells people to declare that they will never live by rule of law of anyone other than that of Allah and that they will do all they need to do as guided by Allah.

They must always seek the proper way of doing things by consulting his revelations.

The way it was done by prophet and their faithful followers in the past and that is why they had a great life in this very world.

This is not how mullahs interpret the quran and one can see how big difference the interpretation of the quran makes.

One can see from this very clearly what kind of God Allah is. Why he sent messengers and his messages for mankind and what he want of them.


The 2nd chapter is called AL-BAQARAH=the dissension not cow as ignorantly translated by mullahs.

This surah is all about conflicts between people, it explains terms for living in peace or conflict resolutions if war has broken out. The factions and their reasons for conflicts. In this context the surah brings in stories of past people as to how conflicts arose between them and how they were solved.

Verse two starts with claim, this is the book, in it is no doubt, guidance for those who want to be consistent ie with God and humanity. So long as people are consistent with each other there is no chance of conflict between them. Conflict only begins when one of the parties makes a wrong move against any other.

Verse 3 tells us how they make wrong moves. It says, Consistent are those people who commit to working for peace on behalf of Allah the Unseen, they establish the divine rule of law and keep open for the benefit of all what Allah has provided for them all.

This is all about land and resources, means of production and distribution. If people behave the way Allah tells them they will have no conflict.

Can anyone see where the quran is trying to lead us? This is all changed in the interpretations of mullas because if you interpret the quran this way one cannot be a slave owner nor can have many women as his sex slaves. This is what these muslim kings were doing in the very name of islam. These mullahs provided them with justifications on basis of islam and muslim masses were driven away from proper education of islam and the very family of the prophet was murdered in cold blood by these so called muslims. So we have mullas imperial islam as if it is the real islam. Fortunately we have the quran in its original text with us and we can reconstruct the prophetic islam there from.

This was just to show what muslims themselves did to islam, muslims and nonmuslims.

I also hold nonmuslims responsible for all this because they have been quick on criticising islam but never once thought they too had the responsibility to judge the quran as the divine testimony to them.

The quran has been delivered to all nations by now and it is only fair that people read it for themselves and judge it for themselves. Don't follow what mullahs says because priestly classes always lied to people about God and made fool of the masses. The quran says this about mullas of jews and christians for warning muslims to not to let the same thing happen to them but they did.

Israelite mullas fought with moses, david, solomon and jesus. Hindus and parsies are the same. Pharaohs priest worked for him not for his people. The bible also condemned rabbis and priests. Yet masses do not learn do they?

So it is not fault of God if people behave stupid. The quran is clear that you reap what you sow. Allah does not change people unless they change themselves or he helps only those who help themselves.

regards and all the best
 
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TTP are fighting for their Islam and Pounjabi Sepah e Sahaba and Lashkar e Jhangvi and etc ect are all fighting for their islam -- Baloch and Sindhi and so called Mohajir are fighting for what they call "Justice"

All this fighting because Islamist Pakistan is a fundamentally unjust society -- but wait - Is Islam unjust?? No?? Well how come so much injustice in the name of Islam?? remember Tehreek e INSAAF (justice)????

Either ALL are equal or no one is equal, Either all are Pakistani or no one is - this is the message loud and clear, for those who would listen.

Sorry Sir Islam is Islam and Islam will be implemented Islamic Economic and political system will be implemented and only those right will be give which Islam allows no other rights will be given
 
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Sorry Sir Islam is Islam and Islam will be implemented Islamic Economic and political system will be implemented and only those right will be give which Islam allows no other rights will be given

very well, now please explain to me how will it be implemented?
 
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You won't get answers from the Islamicans to that question -- if they answered truthfully, they would reveal themselves as enemies of the very idea of Pakistan.

To implement would mean they would have to come to political power since being voted into power would reveal their ideology as hypocritical - it really leaves to ways, either destroy Pakistan or subvert the Pakistan army - either way, destroy Jinnah's Pakistan.
 
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very well, now please explain to me how will it be implemented?

It will come through people revolution all these corrupt politicians will be thrown out and this corrupt democratic system will end Interest based economy will be slowly finished leadership will be chosen with a different process than this corrupt system of elections all the laws will be made purely based on Quran and Sunnah their will be no political parties in Islam because it creates divide among Muslims
 
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You won't get answers from the Islamicans to that question -- if they answered truthfully, they would reveal themselves as enemies of the very idea of Pakistan.

To implement would mean they would have to come to political power since being voted into power would reveal their ideology as hypocritical - it really leaves to ways, either destroy Pakistan or subvert the Pakistan army - either way, destroy Jinnah's Pakistan.

Sir Jinnah never called for Secular Pakistan and for Muslims more important than Jinnah are the orders of ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW even I accept your view that Jinnah wanted Secular Pakistan still I can't betray Islam for the thoughts of Jinnah who was a simple human but in my view he wanted to build a country based on Islamic Principals and Sir Iqbal who chose Iqbal was a Islamist and also the one who gave the idea of Pakistan has always criticized Secularism
 
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Sir Jinnah never called for Secular Pakistan and for Muslims more important than Jinnah are the orders of ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW even I accept your view that Jinnah wanted Secular Pakistan still I can't betray Islam for the thoughts of Jinnah who was a simple human but in my view he wanted to build a country based on Islamic Principals and Sir Iqbal who chose Iqbal was a Islamist and also the one who gave the idea of Pakistan has always criticized Secularism

wow what a patriotic person you are, you insult your nations father and say that he can not be followed, he demanded a seperate Pakistan during partition keeping in mind that Muslims in unified India will not be given importance and he thought a state of Pakistan where majority of Muslims can live together in peace with the rest of the religion, if he had been alive today he would have by now realized that he made the biggest mistake of all.
 
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It will come through people revolution all these corrupt politicians will be thrown out and this corrupt democratic system will end Interest based economy will be slowly finished leadership will be chosen with a different process than this corrupt system of elections all the laws will be made purely based on Quran and Sunnah their will be no political parties in Islam because it creates divide among Muslims

And you say that once you achieve this in your home land you will start conquring the rest of the world and forcefully impose your religion on the rest of the world as you did during your invasion by your mughal emperors on India. Good luck mate. if you are given the highest post of governing a nuclear state such as pakistan, you will be the next hitler to start WW3.
 
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You may be right in your opinion but, your answer seems flawed and wrong to me personally ... I do not follow ISLAM, so what ever is said in quran will never appeal to me or others like me.. And forcing people to follow things which they dont believe in will always lead to chaos...
Secularism is the ONLY way forward..

Muslims do not believe in Hinduism neither such agnostisism or your version of secularism where you can abuse Islam so what makes you justify forcing your belief of majority Muslims in India by imposing a flawed notion of secularism ?
 
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Dear Vibs, islam is anti priestly class as well as anti ruling class, it is all for freedom of individuals to make up their own minds as to how they want to live. It gives principles that in divine wisdom will always prove unchallengeable. Islam is all about freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity for humanity as a whole. It is one standard for all no discrimination on basis of anything else. All laws in any governing system must be subordinate to these principles. Anything else is in clash with islam and unacceptable.

Islam has declared war on anything that divides humanity. If we read the quranic text, the first chapter is called AL_FAATIHA= the proclamation. An agreement between God and humanity. Allah sent his messenger to proclaim to humanity in his name that he is beneficent and merciful. This is very first verse of the very first chapter of the quran.

He further tells his messenger to tell people that sovereignty only and only belongs to Allah because he is the creator and the sustainer of the universe. he then again tells him to say that he is gracious and merciful.

He then tells his messemger to tell people that because Allah is merciful, creator, sustainer and provider for all that he decided to guide humanity therefore he sent his goals and guidelines for humanity to judge all that they do thereby so that everything works out fine for them.

These are first four verses of the quran.

Then he tells people to declare that they will never live by rule of law of anyone other than that of Allah and that they will do all they need to do as guided by Allah.

They must always seek the proper way of doing things by consulting his revelations.

The way it was done by prophet and their faithful followers in the past and that is why they had a great life in this very world.

This is not how mullahs interpret the quran and one can see how big difference the interpretation of the quran makes.

One can see from this very clearly what kind of God Allah is. Why he sent messengers and his messages for mankind and what he want of them.


The 2nd chapter is called AL-BAQARAH=the dissension not cow as ignorantly translated by mullahs.

This surah is all about conflicts between people, it explains terms for living in peace or conflict resolutions if war has broken out. The factions and their reasons for conflicts. In this context the surah brings in stories of past people as to how conflicts arose between them and how they were solved.

Verse two starts with claim, this is the book, in it is no doubt, guidance for those who want to be consistent ie with God and humanity. So long as people are consistent with each other there is no chance of conflict between them. Conflict only begins when one of the parties makes a wrong move against any other.

Verse 3 tells us how they make wrong moves. It says, Consistent are those people who commit to working for peace on behalf of Allah the Unseen, they establish the divine rule of law and keep open for the benefit of all what Allah has provided for them all.

This is all about land and resources, means of production and distribution. If people behave the way Allah tells them they will have no conflict.

Can anyone see where the quran is trying to lead us? This is all changed in the interpretations of mullas because if you interpret the quran this way one cannot be a slave owner nor can have many women as his sex slaves. This is what these muslim kings were doing in the very name of islam. These mullahs provided them with justifications on basis of islam and muslim masses were driven away from proper education of islam and the very family of the prophet was murdered in cold blood by these so called muslims. So we have mullas imperial islam as if it is the real islam. Fortunately we have the quran in its original text with us and we can reconstruct the prophetic islam there from.

This was just to show what muslims themselves did to islam, muslims and nonmuslims.

I also hold nonmuslims responsible for all this because they have been quick on criticising islam but never once thought they too had the responsibility to judge the quran as the divine testimony to them.

The quran has been delivered to all nations by now and it is only fair that people read it for themselves and judge it for themselves. Don't follow what mullahs says because priestly classes always lied to people about God and made fool of the masses. The quran says this about mullas of jews and christians for warning muslims to not to let the same thing happen to them but they did.

Israelite mullas fought with moses, david, solomon and jesus. Hindus and parsies are the same. Pharaohs priest worked for him not for his people. The bible also condemned rabbis and priests. Yet masses do not learn do they?

So it is not fault of God if people behave stupid. The quran is clear that you reap what you sow. Allah does not change people unless they change themselves or he helps only those who help themselves.

regards and all the best

I agree with you on Islam. My problem is with the people who implement the Islamic system. Unfortunately not everyone interprets the Quran like you do.
 
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Muslims do not believe in Hinduism neither such agnostisism or your version of secularism where you can abuse Islam so what makes you justify forcing your belief of majority Muslims in India by imposing a flawed notion of secularism ?

How is secularism imposed on Muslims? Secularism is not what individuals practice, it is just that the state is not run on religious grounds and no religion or belief system is given primacy over any other. Hindus are Hindus & Muslims are Muslims but the state of India is neither. The state does not bar anyone from occupying a high post, constitutional or otherwise because of their religion. That is the definition of secularism that we are speaking about.
 
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Secularism has failed in India too. its not about Pakistan or Islam. this concept of "Secularism" is flawed in itself which discriminates against only Muslims.

Period

if the european notions of 'secularism' are true secularism, then yes it has indeed failed.......

I personally like the Turkish model. Officially they are secular, but in PRACTICE --people openly practice their faith free of any problems. You see on one side of the road someone drinking a beer at a cafe; and down the road there are faithful people going to offer prayers. Nobody bothers eachother. Maybe deep down inside they may have different views and different ideologies but everyone lives and lets live. A Muslim majority country with some other sects as well.


whereas in europe, they simply just ban religious symbols --and it is usually Muslims the first one they have in their cross-hairs


as for india and secularism --well! They have a LONGGGGG way to go, so no need to even talk about india
 
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wow what a patriotic person you are, you insult your nations father and say that he can not be followed, he demanded a seperate Pakistan during partition keeping in mind that Muslims in unified India will not be given importance and he thought a state of Pakistan where majority of Muslims can live together in peace with the rest of the religion, if he had been alive today he would have by now realized that he made the biggest mistake of all.



And Pakistanis are so freaking confused that they actually allow this stuff to be broadcast for the whole world - so that the minority can express their opinion, you see -- No matter what the content of that freaking opinion -- any wonder why Pakistan is in the mess it is in -- Right the equal not the opposite of wrong, bad the equal not the opposite of good, this is the post modern ethic of middle class Pakistan - Some question whether such a ethic deserves to survive, after all, US can't fight all your battles and be blamed for doing so.

The enemies of Pakistan say openly to Pakistanis that they are Muslims and those Pakistanis who will not submit are kafirs, after all, if you live in Kufr, you are a Kafir -- yet even this cannot budge the Pakistanis from the spell he is under. Say what you will, the Islamist enemy knows his mind, the ordinary Pakistani doesn't.
 
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