Vietnamese conquest of Muslim/Hindu Cham and their current situation

[LiberalAtheist]

I see.... let's kill den, 39 % of entire population on earth , to make a better earth right?

JUST STFU IF U HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO SPEAK.
ppl like u sink the name of Hindu. you ancestors are Zionist or atheist for sure

anyway, reported, waiting for ur ban

Stupid smelly Indian. nothing wrong in being atheist and who the hell are you to judge people based on what they believe religiously?

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Cantonese and Mandarin are both Sinitic (Chinese) languages in the same language family, while Vietnamese is an entirely unrelated mon khmer language. Both Cantonese and Mandarin are descended from Old Chinese. Cantonese language and Mandarin both originated from old and middle Chinese in northern China, Cantonese is entirely unrelated to minority languages in the same arealike Zhuang.

I do not quite agree with this statement. Vietnamese is very Sino-Tibetan. The Kinh languages has a Austroasiatic base, but the question is, whether Vietnamese still preserve its Austroasiatic enough to be called a Austroasiatic languages. I have studied Japanese languages and I am fairly fluent in it. I studied briefly the structure of Korean. Both still retain a high degree of Japonic and Koreanic linguistic feature like extensive use of suffixes to modify a word. I do not consider them Sino Tibetan.

Vietnamese as I did my brief study (I could not possibly have time to do detail study on every languages), have a fair similarilty in sentence construct to South Sinitic lects. Vietnanese indeed has a Austroasiatic base, but question is whether this Austroasiatic base got so diluted that it is no longer Austroasiatic anymore. Not to mention an overwhelming lexicon are borrowed from Southern Chinese.

I know my opinion will make many people mad. And many cultural elites in Vietnam that correspond to me online are actually "Chinese Vietnamese". Studying in Chinese schools and Chinese characters have allowed Chinese Vietnamese access to classical Vietnamese, that are inaccessible to Kinh Vietnamese today.

And these Chinese Vietnamese do not support China. They support Vietnam.

The few Cham photo posted on this forum look similar to my cousin, friends and family. I feel a lot of affinity to Kinhs and Chams even though I am a Southern Chinese. Similarly I feel comfortable in Thailand. I like Taiwan, but I feel Zhejiang and North are different.

BTW, EastSea are you a Chinese?

 

[EastSea]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...dea-asian-peace-treaty-fly-6.html#post4527013

Cantonese and Mandarin are both Sinitic (Chinese) languages in the same language family, while Vietnamese is an entirely unrelated mon khmer language. Both Cantonese and Mandarin are descended from Old Chinese. Cantonese language and Mandarin both originated from old and middle Chinese in northern China, Cantonese is entirely unrelated to minority languages in the same arealike Zhuang.

read again your post, kid.

Originally Posted by Wholegrain View Post
Cantonese are descended from northern Chinese paternally. Many Vietnamese nationalists try to claim Cantonese are sinicized Yue, but the Cantonese are descended only maternally from the Yue. Their patrilineal line from their fathers is northern Chinese. Cantonese are descended from northern Chinese settling in Guangdong and marry Yue women. That is why they have northern Chinese Y chromosome from their father's side but mitochondrial DNA on their mother's side from the Yue.

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/...r (2004).pdf

Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

Cantonese still call themselves people of Tang after the Tang dynasty because alot of their ancestors were northerners who fled to Guangdong during the Tang dynasty.

Many northern Chinese fled to southern China in ancient times

In the Shadow of the Han: Literati Thought and Society at the Beginning of ... - Charles Holcombe - Google Books

A History of Chinese Civilization - Jacques Gernet - Google Books

Their is a saying in Taiwan, "mainland grandfather no mainland grandmother" 有唐山公無唐山媽 because Han men from mainland would marry Aboriginal Taiwanese women.

If you keep repeating the same crap I will post the same response debunking it.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...-their-current-situation-9.html#ixzz2Zs8r7JvY

 

[Wholegrain]

read again your post, kid.

Do you know the difference between language and genetics?

Hispanics are descended from Spanish people on the patrilineally line and native Amerindians like the Aztecs, Mayans and Incans on the maternal line. They are descended from Spanish men marrying native women. They all speak Spanish and don't speak Nahuatl (Aztec), Mayan, or Quecha (Incan). Only pureblooded Nahuatl Aztecs, Mayans and Quecha speak their own languages.

I do not quite agree with this statement. Vietnamese is very Sino-Tibetan. The Kinh languages has a Austroasiatic base, but the question is, whether Vietnamese still preserve its Austroasiatic enough to be called a Austroasiatic languages. I have studied Japanese languages and I am fairly fluent in it. I studied briefly the structure of Korean. Both still retain a high degree of Japonic and Koreanic linguistic feature like extensive use of suffixes to modify a word. I do not consider them Sino Tibetan.

Vietnamese as I did my brief study (I could not possibly have time to do detail study on every languages), have a fair similarilty in sentence construct to South Sinitic lects. Vietnanese indeed has a Austroasiatic base, but question is whether this Austroasiatic base got so diluted that it is no longer Austroasiatic anymore. Not to mention an overwhelming lexicon are borrowed from Southern Chinese.

I know my opinion will make many people mad. And many cultural elites in Vietnam that correspond to me online are actually "Chinese Vietnamese". Studying in Chinese schools and Chinese characters have allowed Chinese Vietnamese access to classical Vietnamese, that are inaccessible to Kinh Vietnamese today.

And these Chinese Vietnamese do not support China. They support Vietnam.

The few Cham photo posted on this forum look similar to my cousin, friends and family. I feel a lot of affinity to Kinhs and Chams even though I am a Southern Chinese. Similarly I feel comfortable in Thailand. I like Taiwan, but I feel Zhejiang and North are different.

BTW, EastSea are you a Chinese?

Cantonese language is much closer to Mandarin, look at the lexicon and grammar. If you compare Cantonese, Mandarin, and Vietnamese (written in Chu Nom) characters, Cantonese and Mandarin will share more words and sentence structure. If Vietnamese has heavy sino tibetan influence that means they borrowed alot.

I am southern Chinese too and I am descended from Han in the paternal line. But now you keep on pressing on with this brotherhood nonsense with Vietnamese, I will show concern for my Miao (Hmong) brothers in Vietnam since I share maternal ancestry (mtdna) with the Miao.

UNPO: Report on the 20th session of the Working Group on Indigenous Populations (Second day - Afternoon)

Chang Yang, Hmong International Human Rights Watch
This is our fifth time to testify at WGIP. We ask for two things

1) Stop ethnic cleansing of Hmong in Laos.
2) Give access to refugees in Laos and Thailand.

The Hmong capitol has disappeared. When the Laos and Vietnamese community captured the Hmong, they would cut off the penis off and place in the mouth. For the women captured, they are raped and killed. All have sharp object shoved from the vagina to the chest cavity. For children captured, they have toes cut off and also head bashed on trees. Mr. Chair, this is a new century.

Vietnam is a member of the family of nations. We have picture of top Vietnamese General and his officers killed in 1998. They came to kill the Hmong people. I have pictures of the innocent people slaughtered by Vietnamese government. The people are coming to kill the Hmong people. The Hmong refugee that live in Laos and Thailand should be granted refugee status.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Cantonese, Mandarin and Min Nan (my lect) are lects of Sino Tibetan. I am not disputing an iota. I am putting forward that, Vietnamese is more Sino-Tibetan than Austroasiatic.

I am not convinced base on grammatical or lexical evidence that Vietnamese is Austroasiatic. I speak Min Nan and Cantonese. The Sino Xenic Vietnamese sounds very similar to Cantonese and I would say I can pick up Vietnamese after 3 month of immersion in Vietnam.

I was shown a Chu Nom passage, and I can read 98% of the character, but later, I found that due to the Vietnamese meaning is quite different, and I rate my real understanding of passage as 60%.

BTW, wholegrain, what is your original Sinitic lect?

 

[EastSea]

Do you know the difference between language and genetics?

Hispanics are descended from Spanish people on the patrilineally line and native Amerindians like the Aztecs, Mayans and Incans on the maternal line. They are descended from Spanish men marrying native women. They all speak Spanish and don't speak Nahuatl (Aztec), Mayan, or Quecha (Incan). Only pureblooded Nahuatl Aztecs, Mayans and Quecha speak their own languages.



Cantonese language is much closer to Mandarin, look at the lexicon and grammar. If you compare Cantonese, Mandarin, and Vietnamese (written in Chu Nom) characters, Cantonese and Mandarin will share more words and sentence structure. If Vietnamese has heavy sino tibetan influence that means they borrowed alot.

I am southern Chinese too and I am descended from Han in the paternal line. But now you keep on pressing on with this brotherhood nonsense with Vietnamese, I will show concern for my Miao (Hmong) brothers in Vietnam since I share maternal ancestry (mtdna) with the Miao.

UNPO: Report on the 20th session of the Working Group on Indigenous Populations (Second day - Afternoon)

Cantonese language is much differed from Mandarin,

Although Cantonese shares much vocabulary with Mandarin Chinese, the two languages are not mutually intelligible because of pronunciation, grammatical, and also lexical differences. Sentence structure, in particular the placement of verbs, sometimes differs between the two languages. The use of vocabulary in Cantonese also tends to have more historic roots. One of the most notable differences between Cantonese and Mandarin is how the spoken word is written; with Mandarin the spoken word is written as such, whereas with Cantonese there may not be a direct written word matching what was said.[3][4] This results in the situation in which a Mandarin and Cantonese text almost look the same, but both are pronounced differently.

Cantonese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Viet]

Cantonese and Mandarin are both Sinitic (Chinese) languages in the same language family, while Vietnamese is an entirely unrelated mon khmer language. Both Cantonese and Mandarin are descended from Old Chinese. Cantonese language and Mandarin both originated from old and middle Chinese in northern China, Cantonese is entirely unrelated to minority languages in the same arealike Zhuang.

Actually Vietnam not only adopts Chinese cultures and custom, but borrows a lot of Chinese language. Like Mandarin and Cantonese, Vietnamese is a tonal language, the tone makes the meaning, different tone means different meaning.

Is Austroasiatic a tonal language?

 

[Lux de Veritas]

As a Southern Chinese, I feel extremely uncomfortable when I see China Chinese bashing Vietnam. In China, there is this word call 愤青 (a derogatory term for patriotic and angry young man). I do not see why the East Asian Civilization should fight. We have our enemies.

Also, as I put it in previous post, Deng Xiaoping and China was at the more wrong side when he started the 1979 Sino Vietnam War.

Also this is what samuel huntington predicted about who is really our enemy.

Also Samuel Hunttington invented a "Japonic civilization". There is no such thing of "Japonic civilization". Japonic is Sinic civilization. Nevertheless, he is also honest to predict that Japan and China will detente. See the image above. In fact, Japan will go back sinosphere.

Like it or not, Vietnamese will realize sooner or later that their core interest lies in China. They are going to realize that USA is unrealiable and only China will be their ultimate backer.

USA stands for the interest of Aryan and will stab Sino Tibetan.

I predict the core Sinic state will be China, Korea, Japan and Vietnam.

The next peripheral will be Mongolia, Thailand, Laos, Myanmar Cambodia, (maybe Bhutan if it can be wring from India).

 

[Lux de Veritas]

The future of Sinic civilization is not China fighting Vietnam. It will go nowhere and it can only screw us all. We are now fighting a civilization war, with Western and Hindic. China and Vietnam should work hand in hand.

1) Singapore (wring it back from USA, and reverse anglicization)
2) Bhutan (wring it back from India)
3) Recover the former Chinese influence in Central Asia. The traditional influence of China go as far as Ferghana valley since Han dynasty, that is to say make Uzbekistan our ally.
4) Build blue water navy that can access 2nd Island chain

There are more to do, but I think the above few are achievable targets.

 

[jhungary]

The future of Sinic civilization is not China fighting Vietnam. It will go nowhere and it can only screw us all. We are now fighting a civilization war, with Western and Hindic. China and Vietnam should work hand in hand.

1) Singapore (wring it back from USA, and reverse anglicization)
2) Bhutan (wring it back from India)
3) Recover the former Chinese influence in Central Asia. The traditional influence of China go as far as Ferghana valley since Han dynasty, that is to say make Uzbekistan our ally.
4) Build blue water navy that can access 2nd Island chain

There are more to do, but I think the above few are achievable targets.

I don't ever see Wholegrain as Han Chinese, he could have been a Chinese but probably of Minority, from what I see and his reply, and his focus of Qing-ROC history suggest he could have been one of those tribe from China North East or North West.

His so-called Chinese History are only limited to Post Qing Dynasty, I have yet to see him comment on anything earlier than that, lack of knowledge on these area suggest a non-Han background.

Actually Vietnam not only adopts Chinese cultures and custom, but borrows a lot of Chinese language. Like Mandarin and Cantonese, Vietnamese is a tonal language, the tone makes the meaning, different tone means different meaning.

Is Austroasiatic a tonal language?

Why do you ask him for, he is not ethnic Chinese

 

[Viet]

As a Southern Chinese, I feel extremely uncomfortable when I see China Chinese bashing Vietnam. In China, there is this word call 愤青 (a derogatory term for patriotic and angry young man). I do not see why the East Asian Civilization should fight. We have our enemies.

he he he...I like your comments. Actually China and Vietnam are closer than one may think. One example: College entrance exams in Vietnam and China (photos). Can you spot differences?

source: VN youth news

Unlike many other countries that recruit students for higher education based mainly on their high school performance, Vietnam and China annually require those bound for college to pass tests in national exams.

Vietnamese students are required to sit for papers on a set of three subjects chosen from math, physics, chemistry, literature, history, geography, biology, and foreign languages to be admitted to the school of their choice.

In China, university aspirants must do mandatory tests on Chinese, math, and a foreign language, usually English, and three other subjects selected from physics, chemistry, biology, history, geography, and political education.

Vietnamese parents are seen nervously waiting for their children outside an exam center in Hanoi on July 4, 2013. Photo: Tuoi Tre

Chinese parents stand outside testing centers while their children take the 2013 gaokao. Photo: Reuters

A Vietnamese student prays for success at the Temple of Literature in Hanoi on July 2, 2013, two days before her college entrance exam. Photo: Tuoi Tre

A Chinese student and her family hold burning incense as they pray for the daughter's success in the national college entrance exam at a Taoist temple in Shenyang, Liaoning Province on June 6, 2012. Photo: Reuters

A mother hugs her daughter in front of Vietnam’s Saigon University after she finishes a math test on July 4, 2013. Photo: Tuoi Tre

A Chinese woman reacts as her son leaves the Shanghai No.1 High School after finishing the first part of the gaokao in Shanghai June 7, 2013. Photo: Reuters

Vietnamese parents are looking anxiously for their children at the Ho Chi Minh City University of Technology on July 4, 2013. Photo: Tuoi Tre

Chinese parents wait as their children take the tough gaokao in Wuhan, central China’s Hubei province on June 7, 2012. Photo: AFP

Also, as I put it in previous post, Deng Xiaoping and China was at the more wrong side when he started the 1979 Sino Vietnam War.

respect. you are the first who dares to say this.

Like it or not, Vietnamese will realize sooner or later that their core interest lies in China. They are going to realize that USA is unrealiable and only China will be their ultimate backer.

USA stands for the interest of Aryan and will stab Sino Tibetan.
I predict the core Sinic state will be China, Korea, Japan and Vietnam.
The next peripheral will be Mongolia, Thailand, Laos, Myanmar Cambodia, (maybe Bhutan if it can be wring from India).

Unrealistic that Vietnam will just become a province, a part of China, like 1,100 years ago. The most realistic scenario is China and Vietnam establish an union of independent states, like the European Union.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Every China Chinese should say sorry to Vietnamese for the 1979 War. Sorry the below passage is Chinese and it clearly explain why Deng Xiaoping start a war with Vietnam. I hope Vietnamese readers repost in their forum and write it in their media to spread the truth. Many China Chinese are increasingly accepting the below version of 1979 Sino Vietnam War. I have posted this earlier.

邓小平知道，要想干掉叶剑英，只能从军权着手。他还清楚，要是在战争年代，没有嫡系没有带兵打仗的经历，叶剑英只好乖乖地把军权交出来。所以，最佳途径就是打仗。跟谁打？当然一举解放台湾最好，只是海军不行，而且还要跟美国对决。北面的老大哥是动不得的，那就只有南边的越南了。打从美国从越南败退，越南就不怎么看得起中国，有点不尊重中国老二哥。但打越南毕竟是对外用兵，国际社会的反应是重中之重。邓小平立刻到美国访问，见到卡特总统后便告诉卡特，中国要教训一下越南，这个小国太猖狂了。当然邓小平认为打越南也是帮美国出出气，算是改善中美关系的礼物。

卡特听后吃惊不已，但考虑到中国和越南都是社会主义大家庭的成员，互相打起来，如同狗咬狗。美国当然不会干涉。那时的中国百废待兴，穷的老农民连棉裤都穿不上，离争霸世界还远着呢。

邓小平回国后立刻做越南在边境挑衅的舆论宣传工作。对越用兵就成了“自卫反击”之战了。有了这个战争性质，华国锋叶剑英即使想到了邓小平要夺军权，也没有办法了。国际上，美国不会出兵干涉，这一点，邓小平跟卡特当面谈好了。国内，老百姓都被忽悠过了，如果有谁阻止“自卫反击”那就是汉 奸行为了。

对越“自卫反击”战争，由于军委主席华国锋没有指挥的可能，没有指挥过大兵团作战的叶剑英也只好让位给邓小平了。此时，一野的彭德怀四野的林彪罗荣桓早死了，只剩下二野的邓小平和三野的粟裕了。邓小平不让粟裕参加任何军事指挥，把他凉在一边。等到邓小平在战争中夺取了实际军权后，再逼迫叶剑英交出军权，叶剑英只有点头的份了。到此时，叶剑英才知道邓小平是如此阴狠如此毒辣如此无情。

I will retell the content briefly. Few people are aware that Deng was not the supremo leader of China until after he invaded Vietnam. Then CCP was on the verge of collaspsing and also there are many competitor to top leadership in China.

Deng started the Sino Vietnam war in 1979. By doing so, he consolidated the army in his hand, and use it against political opponents. He purge generals of rival factions. With PLA in his hands, he use it against his party that saw him taking over the leadership.

Also by attack Vietnam, he sucks up USA and white man, freshly kick out of Vietnam. This is one of the reason USA and Europe was giving China generous technology transfer, market access and direct investment from 1979 until 1989. Also this is partly to counter USSR.

 

[asad71]

Muslims of SA and SEA must unite to protect and provide succor to their brethren strewn all along the coastline of the Indian Ocean going into the Pacific. Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia should play a leading role here because they are strong. Insha Allah BD will also join their rank in the near future.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Unrealistic that Vietnam will just become a province, a part of China, like 1,100 years ago. The most realistic scenario is China and Vietnam establish an union of independent states, like the European Union.

I am not saying Vietnam must join China. In fact, its best Vietnam remain independent. A independent Vietnam is more invigorated and preserve a lot of Sinic culture. Meanwhile a lot of Sinic culture were destroyed in China in upheavals like cultural revolution. Also Vietnam's conduct and the warfare of Kinhs with Cham are same as all other tribe of the day. The Thai and Burmese were late comers to Mekong land, migrated from Yunnan. They have no difference in their conduct as Kinhs. In fact, in Chams win, Kinhs would see the same fate as well.

If Kinhs were weak, they will be wipe out by Thai. Thai were extremely aggressive race as well, and they nearly swallow up Cambodia. They conquered Laos. Thai could have descend from Laotian highland and cut Vietnam into half, if Kinhs were not martial race. Those were the times of jungle law.

The ancient people are violent in nature. Islamic conquest of India was far worse.

Indo China at AD1000. Green, light blue, red, are Mon Khmer land. Yellow are Malay land.

Indo China at AD900, red and green Mon Khmer land. Yellow is Malay land. Thai and Burmese are still minorities in Yunnan.

Big loser are Malay and Cambodian. Winners are Viet and Thai.

 

[NiceGuy]

As a Southern Chinese, I feel extremely uncomfortable when I see China Chinese bashing Vietnam. In China, there is this word call 愤青 (a derogatory term for patriotic and angry young man). I do not see why the East Asian Civilization should fight. We have our enemies.

Also, as I put it in previous post, Deng Xiaoping and China was at the more wrong side when he started the 1979 Sino Vietnam War.
.

Bcz they r stupid and brainwashed, they think they r bigger, so they can bully the smaller, but they weren't allow to learn in their history book that their PLA fought like coward in idiot in 1979 and totally was got a humiliate defeated just by VN women militia in few weeks

And of couser, bcz the SCS(east sea) where VN control the biggest and the most important part is a crucial ship lane for China , so they dream that once day, they can kick us out and take control of it, but its just a poor wet dream . IF we feel unhappy , we just simply cover SCS(east sea) by sea mine, then game over for China economy

Also this is what samuel huntington predicted about who is really our enemy.



Also Samuel Hunttington invented a "Japonic civilization". There is no such thing of "Japonic civilization". Japonic is Sinic civilization. Nevertheless, he is also honest to predict that Japan and China will detente. See the image above. In fact, Japan will go back sinosphere.





Like it or not, Vietnamese will realize sooner or later that their core interest lies in China. They are going to realize that USA is unrealiable and only China will be their ultimate backer.

USA stands for the interest of Aryan and will stab Sino Tibetan.

I predict the core Sinic state will be China, Korea, Japan and Vietnam.

The next peripheral will be Mongolia, Thailand, Laos, Myanmar Cambodia, (maybe Bhutan if it can be wring from India).

China bowed down and licked US's boots first, what a shamed !