Vietnam visit: Anti-American exhibits abound, but people are friendly

[gambit]

Economic depression? Vietnam is now the 24th fastest growing economy in the world and has just entered its period of acceleration. In addition, HDI has improved in Vietnam since 1975. When Chinese investment pours into Vietnam and Vietnam hits 9% growth rates I wonder who will be the jealous loser sitting in the dust?

And was this time necessary? The fact that both China and Viet Nam took so long is testament to the epic folly of both countries. Not counting political and human rights oppression. All crimes against humanity. And thanks to China for co-starting the Vietnam War.

 

[gambit]

Its much better than means justifying nothing which what Americans demonstrated perfectly after bombing the crap out of Vietnam and then just leaving Vietnamese to clean it up.

Good...Now we know that for the Chinese boys here the end does justify the means. Thanks for the clarity.

 

[below_freezing]

I hate to say this but the word "millions" have been abused and used too much for the civilian casualties in the war. Million is simply too much of an exaggeration.

Let's take a look at the Christmas bombing campain in 1972. That's the heaviest bombing campaign ever over a stretch of 11 days. Bombs were dropped on North Viet Nam in general and on the two most densely populated cities of Ha Noi and Hai Phong. It is said the the tonnages were 5 times more than those were dropped in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The result: 1100 civilian deaths in 11 days, that's an average of 100 per day on areas of heavily packed civilians.

Now the war started from 1965-1972; that's close to 3000 days and the Vietnam War is not a war that is being fought on a daily basis, the intensity of the war is nowhere near the 1968 Tet Offense or the 1972 Christmas bombing occasion. Now people are talking about millions of deaths due to bombing?? Even the NVA and VC did not die by the millions despite the fact that they were the primary targets of the bombing campaign and now people are talking about civilians died by the millions? Such a joke

My prediction for the # of civilians that died due to the U.S bombing campaign over the stretch of that 3000 days is about less than 10,000.

Operation Rolling Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The CIA estimated on 1 January 1968 that damage inflicted in the north totaled $370 million in physical destruction, including $164 million worth of damage to capital assets (such as factories, bridges, and power plants). The agency also estimated that approximately 1,000 casualties had been inflicted on the North Vietnamese population per week, or approximately 90,000 for the 44-month period, 72,000 of whom were civilians.[107] Due to combat and operational circumstances, 506 U.S. Air Force, 397 Navy, and 19 Marine Corps aircraft were lost over or near North Vietnam.[108][109] During the operation, of the 745 crewmen shot down, the U.S. Air Force recorded 145 rescued, 255 killed, 222 captured (23 of whom died in captivity), and 123 missing.[110] Figures on U.S. Navy and Marine Corps casualties were harder to come by. During the 44-month time frame, 454 Naval aviators were killed, captured, or missing during combined operations over North Vietnam and Laos.[111]

Agent Orange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US began to target food crops in October 1962, primarily using Agent Blue. In 1965, 42 percent of all herbicide spraying was dedicated to food crops.[4] Rural-to-urban migration rates dramatically increased in South Vietnam, as peasants escaped the destruction and famine in the countryside by fleeing to the U.S.-dominated cities. The urban population in South Vietnam more than tripled: from 2.8 million people in 1958, to 8 million by 1971. The rapid flow of people led to a fast-paced and uncontrolled urbanization; an estimated 1.5 million people were living in Saigon slums, while many South Vietnamese elites and U.S. personnel lived in luxury.[10]

According to Vietnamese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 4.8 million Vietnamese people were exposed to herbicides, resulting in 400,000 people being killed or maimed, and 500,000 children born with birth defects.[11]

 

[below_freezing]

And was this time necessary? The fact that both China and Viet Nam took so long is testament to the epic folly of both countries. Not counting political and human rights oppression. All crimes against humanity. And thanks to China for co-starting the Vietnam War.

See the other half. There has been no US occupied nation that was undeveloped and dependent on tech imports in 1960, that is independent of tech imports today, absolutely not one. Phillipines? Thailand? South Korea? All need to import machine tools. All the developed nations in 1920 are still developed nations in 1960 and are still developed nations in 2011.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

See the other half. There has been no US occupied nation that was undeveloped and dependent on tech imports in 1960, that is independent of tech imports today, absolutely not one. Phillipines? Thailand? South Korea? All need to import machine tools. All the developed nations in 1920 are still developed nations in 1960 and are still developed nations in 2011.

He obviously likes to forget that China and Vietnam were both dirt poor before communism along with human rights violations.

 

[gambit]

See the other half. There has been no US occupied nation that was undeveloped and dependent on tech imports in 1960, that is independent of tech imports today, absolutely not one. Phillipines? Thailand? South Korea? All need to import machine tools. All the developed nations in 1920 are still developed nations in 1960 and are still developed nations in 2011.

This is a strawman argument.

 

[gambit]

He obviously likes to forget that China and Vietnam were both dirt poor before communism along with human rights violations.

Nothing wrong with being poor as long as you are free. But as you finally admitted that the end justified the means I guess it is fine for China to pull other countries in the communist hellhole just to see if the experiment works.

 

[ViXuyen]

Operation Rolling Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The CIA estimated on 1 January 1968 that damage inflicted in the north totaled $370 million in physical destruction, including $164 million worth of damage to capital assets (such as factories, bridges, and power plants). The agency also estimated that approximately 1,000 casualties had been inflicted on the North Vietnamese population per week, or approximately 90,000 for the 44-month period, 72,000 of whom were civilians.[107] Due to combat and operational circumstances, 506 U.S. Air Force, 397 Navy, and 19 Marine Corps aircraft were lost over or near North Vietnam.[108][109] During the operation, of the 745 crewmen shot down, the U.S. Air Force recorded 145 rescued, 255 killed, 222 captured (23 of whom died in captivity), and 123 missing.[110] Figures on U.S. Navy and Marine Corps casualties were harder to come by. During the 44-month time frame, 454 Naval aviators were killed, captured, or missing during combined operations over North Vietnam and Laos.[111]

Agent Orange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US began to target food crops in October 1962, primarily using Agent Blue. In 1965, 42 percent of all herbicide spraying was dedicated to food crops.[4] Rural-to-urban migration rates dramatically increased in South Vietnam, as peasants escaped the destruction and famine in the countryside by fleeing to the U.S.-dominated cities. The urban population in South Vietnam more than tripled: from 2.8 million people in 1958, to 8 million by 1971. The rapid flow of people led to a fast-paced and uncontrolled urbanization; an estimated 1.5 million people were living in Saigon slums, while many South Vietnamese elites and U.S. personnel lived in luxury.[10]

According to Vietnamese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 4.8 million Vietnamese people were exposed to herbicides, resulting in 400,000 people being killed or maimed, and 500,000 children born with birth defects.[11]

Please, you give us the same source(s) for the "millions" again. I stand by what I said, look up the civilian casualties during the Christmas bombing of the most densely populated areas of North Viet Nam in 11 days in 1972 and make your own judgement about how many civilians could have died over 3000 days

 

[below_freezing]

No it is not. You tried to imply that communism makes countries poor. I argue the opposite. It's the fast track to industrialization. Under ludicrous free market rules, "every nation plays to its comparative advantage" so in the end, poor 3rd world countries in Africa that have a comparative advantage in agriculture due to a backwards industrial base are ludicrously told, "don't develop your technology, keep farming instead, just import our technology"!

In fact, it is the free market forced onto developing countries too early by the West that keeps them poor.

 

[below_freezing]

Please, you give us the same source(s) for the "millions" again. I stand by what I said, look up the civilian casualties during the Christmas bombing of the most densely populated areas of North Viet Nam in 11 days in 1972 and make your own judgement about how many civilians could have died over 3000 days

Vietnam War casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Viet Cong and upon occasion the North Vietnamese Regulars would often wear civilian clothes. Civilians could thus be mistaken for a being a supporter of one side or the other and be shot. They were also sometimes killed simply for being caught up in a battle. South Vietnam suffered the majority of an estimated[1] 2,000,000 civilians killed this way[4] Rummel's review of the various data led to a mid-level estimate of 843,000 civilian deaths in both North and South Vietnam. The detailed Figures are not complete, but the mid-level R.J. Rummel estimates are that around 391,000 South Vietnamese civilians died. Another 643,000 died as the Communist North Vietnamese consolidated power. Rummel's low-level estimate was 361,000 South Vietnamese civilians and his high-estimate was 720,000.[10] Below is a loose outline of which forces caused these non-uniformed and civilian deaths. The Communist Vietnamese government in 1995 estimated that 2,000,000 Vietnamese civilians on both sides died in the war, but does not allocate these deaths between North and South Vietnam.[4] Rummel estimated (apart from the post 1975 communist power consolidation) that a low-level of 486,000 civilians died; the mid-level was 843,000, with a high level at 1,200,000.[11][4]

R.J. Rummel's mid-level estimated that 65,000 North Vietnamese Civilians died from 1960-1975.[28] Furthermore, he estimates that in the 1957 to 1975 period the North Vietnamese government executed around 50,000 North Vietnamise civilians (most were executed by 1960).[29]

The Vietnamese communist government in 1995 estimated that 2,000,000 Vietnamese civilians on both sides died in the war.[4] Overall figures for North Vietnamese civilian dead range from 50,000[1] to several hundred thousand.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Nothing wrong with being poor as long as you are free. But as you finally admitted that the end justified the means I guess it is fine for China to pull other countries in the communist hellhole just to see if the experiment works.

It was Soviet Union who started spreading communism everywhere. You seem to be obsessed with blaming China for everything.

 

[below_freezing]

Nothing wrong with being poor as long as you are free. But as you finally admitted that the end justified the means I guess it is fine for China to pull other countries in the communist hellhole just to see if the experiment works.

Your irrational hatred of communism is a joke. Stick to a technician's level understanding of radar.

 

[ViXuyen]

Vietnam War casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Viet Cong and upon occasion the North Vietnamese Regulars would often wear civilian clothes. Civilians could thus be mistaken for a being a supporter of one side or the other and be shot. They were also sometimes killed simply for being caught up in a battle. South Vietnam suffered the majority of an estimated[1] 2,000,000 civilians killed this way[4] Rummel's review of the various data led to a mid-level estimate of 843,000 civilian deaths in both North and South Vietnam. The detailed Figures are not complete, but the mid-level R.J. Rummel estimates are that around 391,000 South Vietnamese civilians died. Another 643,000 died as the Communist North Vietnamese consolidated power. Rummel's low-level estimate was 361,000 South Vietnamese civilians and his high-estimate was 720,000.[10] Below is a loose outline of which forces caused these non-uniformed and civilian deaths. The Communist Vietnamese government in 1995 estimated that 2,000,000 Vietnamese civilians on both sides died in the war, but does not allocate these deaths between North and South Vietnam.[4] Rummel estimated (apart from the post 1975 communist power consolidation) that a low-level of 486,000 civilians died; the mid-level was 843,000, with a high level at 1,200,000.[11][4]

R.J. Rummel's mid-level estimated that 65,000 North Vietnamese Civilians died from 1960-1975.[28] Furthermore, he estimates that in the 1957 to 1975 period the North Vietnamese government executed around 50,000 North Vietnamise civilians (most were executed by 1960).[29]

The Vietnamese communist government in 1995 estimated that 2,000,000 Vietnamese civilians on both sides died in the war.[4] Overall figures for North Vietnamese civilian dead range from 50,000[1] to several hundred thousand.

Your numbers still do not make sense for the 1100 civilians died during the 11 days bombing campagin.

 

[Tigershark]

No...It is you Chinese boys who have no shame in trying to deny China's very prominent and pivotal role in the starting the Vietnam War. All this talk about Agent Orange and B-52 strikes are convenient distractors and I will admit they are effective. For the gullible, that is. You want the US to own up to Agent Orange? Then you Chinese boys should have the balls to own up for China's crimes against the Viets.

You forget that communism in Vietnam enjoyed broad popular support. The Vietnamese chose communism, freed their country from French and American imperialism, and now enjoys rapid economic growth and improving living standards. The Vietnamese made their choice and you should be supporting their difficult task of building a modern nation. Instead all you do is complain about China and your own country, sitting on your couch a world away.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Your irrational hatred of communism is a joke. Stick to a technician's level understanding of radar.

No communism is simply an excuse to hate Chinese.