Vietnam visit: Anti-American exhibits abound, but people are friendly

[below_freezing]

From the severe damage Agent Orange caused in South Vietnam, we must be forgiving to those born in the 1960-1980 period. Agent Orange is a very potent developmental poison and neurotoxin. While high concentrations cause gross birth deformities, lower ones may cause decreased IQ and brain capacity.

 

[scuthan]

I played tourist in East Berlin when it existed. What a dump that was. I have always laughed at any communist regime that attached the label 'Democratic' to its name. So tell me, would you rather live in 'Democratic' North Korea or 'democratic' South Korea?

it is unfair to compare North Korea with South Korea. North Korea was a very fairly industrialized and a successful developing country in 1980s by whatever criteria. standard of living was better than south Korea before early 1980s. after 1990, because the econmoy and trade system of east block collape, so did North Korea. the sanctions by the US made the situation far worse. its industry dropped by 90% and millions were starved in those days. Actually US should be primarily responsible for this humanitarian crisis. if china had sanction on South korea for a single year, 80% of its population would die, cuz its food is only 20% self-supplied.

Personally if i were a bottom class citizen, I prefer to live in North korea than India. North Korea's literate rate is 99.9% while india is 60%. Everyone is employed and receive free education, free healthcare. There is extremely low crime rate and very high level of social morality in North Korea. In comparison, today young people in Shanghai, Hongkong, Tokyo, Seoul can barely feed themselves desipte hard work. A ordinary workers or dustman's family in pyingrong can lived in a 75-120 square apartment provided the government, and raise 2.08 childern and let them receive decent education.

 

[gambit]

it is unfair to compare North Korea with South Korea. North Korea was a very fairly industrialized and a successful developing country in 1980s by whatever criteria. standard of living was better than south Korea before early 1980s. after 1990, because the econmoy and trade system of east block collape, so did North Korea. the sanctions by the US made the situation far worse. its industry dropped by 90% and millions were starved in those days. Actually US should be primarily responsible for this humanitarian crisis. if china had sanction on South korea for a single year, 80% of its population would die, cuz its food is only 20% self-supplied.

But if there were trade partners besides the US, then the sanctions excuse is no excuse. Trade is a privilege, not a right. I only have the right to initiate trade, but not the right to force you to trade with me. So there is nothing to prevent other countries from trading with NKR. Other countries' economies did just fine without trading with NKR. That mean the fault of the economic problems lies within communism itself, not with other countries.

Personally if i were a bottom class citizen, I prefer to live in North korea than India. North Korea's literate rate is 99.9% while india is 60%. Everyone is employed and receive free education, free healthcare. There is extremely low crime rate and very high level of social morality in North Korea. In comparison, today young people in Shanghai, Hongkong, Tokyo, Seoul can barely feed themselves desipte hard work. A ordinary workers or dustman's family in pyingrong can lived in a 75-120 square apartment provided the government, and raise 2.08 childern and let them receive decent education.

A 'class' of citizen? I thought under communism there is no such thing as 'class'. Still, despite what 'class' you are right now, there is nothing to prevent you from living in NKR. Other than cowardice from living up to your claim.

 

[Obambam]

No...King was wrong when he said the US government gave Viet Nam back to France. It was Ho Chi Minh who gave Viet Nam back to France...

Ho

Do you dispute this historical fact? Be brave and say if you do.

"On February 16th, 1945 Ho Chi Minh wrote a letter to President Truman asking for American assistance in gaining Vietnamese freedom. The letter closed with the remarks:

Dear Mr. President

We ask what has been graciously granted to the Philippines. Like the Philippines our goal is full independence and full cooperation with the UNITED STATES. We will do our best to make this independence and cooperation profitable to the whole world.

Respectfully Yours,

Ho Chi Minh"

The Declaration of Independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam starts:

"All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; among these are Liberty, Life and the pursuit of Happiness."

This immortal statement appeared in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. In a broader sense, it means: all the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live and to be happy and free.

The Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen, made at the time of the French Revolution, in 1791, also states: "All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights."

Those are undeniable truths.

Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French imperialists, abusing the standard of liberty, Equality and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow-citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice.

Politically: they have deprived our people of every democratic liberty…

Due to the fact that Ho had tried every conceivable way to cooperate with both the French and Americans in gaining Vietnamese independence, and all of those efforts had been fruitless, Ho turned to the Communists for help."

"The US generally took an approach of non-involvement in the issue of Vietnamese and French conflict, and in doing so supported French colonialism."

So yes Ho never wanted Vietnam to be colonized and wrote to America for support. America took no action, which in a sense, is supporting the French colonization of Vietnam.

"The Ho–Sainteny agreement was an agreement made March 6, 1946 between Ho Chi Minh, President of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, and Jean Sainteny, Special Envoy of France. It recognized Vietnam as a "Free State" within the French Union, and permitted France to continue stationing troops in North Vietnam until 1951."

Notice the part "permitted France to stationing troops in North Vietnam until 1951"? His intention was never meant for the French to colonalize them, but rather to open up an option and give them the incentive to leave.

Wrong...The refugee flow began even BEFORE the war when the Viet Minh started prosecuting religious leaders, particularly Catholics and Buddhists, for their objections to communism. Are you going to deny the flight of the Montagnards during the war or the 'boat people' after unification??

"Originally inhabitants of the coastal areas of the region, they were driven to the uninhabited mountainous areas by invading Vietnamese and Cambodians beginning prior to the 9th century AD.

Although French Catholic missionaries converted some Degar in the nineteenth century, American missionaries made more of an impact in the 1930s, and many Degar are now Protestant. Of the approximately 1 million Degar, close to half are Protestant, while around 200,000 are Catholic. This made Vietnam's Communist Party suspicious of the Degar, particularly during the Vietnam War, since it was thought that they would be more inclined to help the American forces (predominantly Christian—mainly Protestant).

In 1950, the French government established the Central Highlands as the Pays Montagnard du Sud (PMS) under the authority of Vietnamese Emperor Bảo Đại, whom the French had installed as nominal chief of state in 1949 as an alternative to Ho Chi Minh's Democratic Republic of Vietnam. When the French withdrew from Vietnam and recognized a Vietnamese government, Degar political independence was drastically diminished.

The Degar have a long history of tensions with the Vietnamese majority. While the Vietnamese are themselves heterogeneous, they generally share a common language and culture and have developed and maintained the dominant social institutions of Vietnam. The Degar do not share that heritage. There have been conflicts between the two groups over many issues, including land ownership, language and cultural preservation, access to education and resources, and political representation.

The 1960s saw contact between the Degar and the U.S. military, as American involvement in the Vietnam War escalated and the Central Highlands emerged as a strategically important area, in large part because it included the Ho Chi Minh trail, the North Vietnamese supply line for Viet Cong forces in the south. The U.S. military, particularly the U.S. Army's Special Forces, developed base camps in the area and recruited the Degar, roughly 40,000 of whom fought alongside American soldiers and became a major part of the U.S. military effort in the Highlands."

I don't deny the war between Ho and the Montagnards since there has been disagreements prior to the war involving the Americans. So when Americans came in, they see even more reasons to support the west in its struggle against the north.

So are you saying that South Viet Nam was looking for American colonialism??

You said it yourself here:

The implication here is that South Vietnam turned to America and therefore the South Vietnamese was seeking American colonialism. Not talking about France by this time.

Democracy by its nature of allowing competition and compromises is naturally evolutionary. Do you have a problem with that?

Democracy indeed allows competition by nature, but not the version adopted west. It only gives you freedom if you do as you are told and compete according to their own sets of rule (dirty underarm tactics alert), so what freedom is there if it is hindered by their version of rules? So if it gives so much freedom to compete, then why not let Communism compete with it on equal grounds? Why sanction or wage war on communsm? Contradicting? yes, and I do have problems with that.

 

[Obambam]

Sure it 'could have'...

Yes and it could have indeed.

That sanctions canard again? A sanction is not a blockade, which is an act of war. What is preventing China or Cuba or Russia or Iran from doing business with North Korea? What make you believe anyone is 'entitled' to other people's goods? South Korea and Japan defied the US and invested in Viet Nam long before President Clinton lifted the trade embargo. This is a tired argument in trying to defend the epic failure of communism throughout the world.

Notice they were all communist ran countries? Yes it is in a war. A political war.
Americans used its power and formed a pact against the North Koreans and you call that fair? It is it not, it is also inhumane and not being anti competitve. What kind of democracy is that? I guess if China was to stop the flow of rare earth shippments to the US? That would be deemed as being democractic too by offering the same competitiveness? it's playing by the same rules of US democracy isn't it? sure, it's not a blockade and they can mine them too.

 

[Black Widow]

Recently I was watching Kevin Costner, Tommy lee johns starer movie, named JFK... It is such a good movie... People must watch it to see the how America was divided on Vietnam issue... While the common public was with Vietnam and JFK, the CIA was batting on other pitch...

There were famous dialogue at the end of movie, Kevin said "Now its proved that no one in America can question the CIA" and "Its need only one Brutus to kill ceaser, you need not to have all traitors to kill JFK"

American Public were empathic towards Vietnam///

 

[scuthan]

But if there were trade partners besides the US, then the sanctions excuse is no excuse. Trade is a privilege, not a right. I only have the right to initiate trade, but not the right to force you to trade with me. So there is nothing to prevent other countries from trading with NKR. Other countries' economies did just fine without trading with NKR. That mean the fault of the economic problems lies within communism itself, not with other countries.


A 'class' of citizen? I thought under communism there is no such thing as 'class'. Still, despite what 'class' you are right now, there is nothing to prevent you from living in NKR. Other than cowardice from living up to your claim.

Few companies in the world including chinese companies dare to have trades with North korea . once you have trade with north Korea, you are on the blacklist of USA and you are prevented from doing business with USA. the US can convict you by their law

Yes there was no class in socialist country. speak of bottom people, i meant the hardworking people but underpaid in most society, sale girls, waitors, dustmen, some industry workers. i am a man of integrity and have professional skills i can lead a better standard of living in China than North korea so i wont go to NK. I currently live in US for a while, i failed to see the old people who collect food from garbage bin in the street live a better life than North Korea though overwheming majority american live a better a better life in US. the people typically don't have a privildege to choose where they work and live.

 

[Black Widow]

Yes and it could have indeed.



Notice they were all communist ran countries? Yes it is in a war. A political war.
Americans used its power and formed a pact against the North Koreans and you call that fair? It is it not, it is also inhumane and not being anti competitve. What kind of democracy is that? I guess if China was to stop the flow of rare earth shippments to the US? That would be deemed as being democractic too by offering competitiveness? it's playing by the same rules of US democracy isn't it? sure, it's not a blockade and they can mine them too.

I slightly Disagree with you... Though Democracy has many flaws but there is no substitute for it... We Indian have seen communist rule in two province , and believe me Its like hell.... communism is widely used as a tool to kill own people... Lot of ppl claiming that USA is worst abuser of Human right, but they know to save their own people... while most of the communist state kill their own people..

 

[gambit]

Man..oh...man...Talk about getting desperate to save some face for China...

Due to the fact that Ho had tried every conceivable way to cooperate with both the French and Americans in gaining Vietnamese independence, and all of those efforts had been fruitless, Ho turned to the Communists for help."

"The US generally took an approach of non-involvement in the issue of Vietnamese and French conflict, and in doing so supported French colonialism."

In other words, doing nothing constitute doing something. But here is another uncomfortable fact for you...

Pentagon Papers, Gravel Edition, Summary and Chapter I

I saw Halifax last week and told him quite frankly that it was perfectly true that I had, for over a year, expressed the opinion that Indo-China should not go back to France but that it should be administered by an international trusteeship. France has had the country-thirty million inhabitants for nearly one hundred years, and the people are worse off than they were at the beginning.

As a matter of interest, I am wholeheartedly supported in this view by Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and by Marshal Stalin. I see no reason to play in with the British Foreign Office in this matter. The only reason they seem to oppose it is that they fear the effect it would have on their own possessions and those of the Dutch. They have never liked the idea of trusteeship because it is, in some instances, aimed at future independence. This is true in the case of Indo-China.

Each case must, of course, stand on its own feet, but the case of IndoChina is perfectly clear. France has milked it for one hundred years. The people of Indo-China are entitled to something better than that.

The US never had any intention of being uninvolved as indicated by Roosevelt's comment about France's colonialism. War time necessities pushed his idea into the background, of course, and despite Roosevelt's death, Truman had no reason to abandon the idea. Ho's history with communism was already known to the US via his association with the American OSS during WW II so Truman's reluctance to accept Ho's pleas was legitimate because he knew of other non-communist allied Vietnamese nationalists. It is only a stretch of the imagination that there was malice from the US regarding Viet Nam and Ho Chi Minh's letter.

So yes Ho never wanted Vietnam to be colonized and wrote to America for support. America took no action, which in a sense, is supporting the French colonization of Vietnam.

"The Ho–Sainteny agreement was an agreement made March 6, 1946 between Ho Chi Minh, President of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, and Jean Sainteny, Special Envoy of France. It recognized Vietnam as a "Free State" within the French Union, and permitted France to continue stationing troops in North Vietnam until 1951."

Notice the part "permitted France to stationing troops in North Vietnam until 1951"? His intention was never meant for the French to colonalize them, but rather to open up an option and give them the incentive to leave.

That is an absurd argument. You are arguing that for a colonial power that seeks to reclaim what was lost, France would be satisfied with only a few years worth of occupation? The worst that could be laid at America's feet were ineptitude, ignorance, and even indifference. It was only after the US was appraised of this agreement that the US, through SecState James Byrne, conceded. To be a 'free state' within the French Union is to be subjected to colonialism. Ho then used French military forces to slaughter non-communist nationalists who opposed his agreement. France had no choice but to go along out of the same colonialist interests.

I don't deny the war between Ho and the Montagnards since there has been disagreements prior to the war involving the Americans. So when Americans came in, they see even more reasons to support the west in its struggle against the north.

There were no more bombings after 1975. So if you doubt the fact that there were North to South refugees during the war, you need to explain the panic after 1975 that gave us the 'boat people'. Can you do that?

You said it yourself here:

That was not my implication but that I said it was you boys' that South Viet Nam was seeking American colonialism.

Democracy indeed allows competition by nature, but not the adopted western. It only gives you freedom if you do as you are told and compete according to their own sets of rule, so what freedom is there if it is hindered by rules? So if it gives so much freedom to compete, then why not let Communism compete with it on equal grounds? Why sanction or wage war on communsim? Contradicting? yes, and I do have problems with that.

Give me a break. What 'rules' are you talking about? Where is it that communism is not allowed to compete? You mean this...

VIDEO: Communist Party Convention Kicks Off » cpusa

The CPUSA's convention was in New York City. In every democracy, the burden is upon YOU, the proponent of an ideology to convince people to support you, to come to your side, and eventually to join your side. If communist ideas failed to take root in America, whose fault is that when the CPUSA is allowed to have a convention opened to the public?

 

[gambit]

Yes and it could have indeed.



Notice they were all communist ran countries? Yes it is in a war. A political war.
Americans used its power and formed a pact against the North Koreans and you call that fair? It is it not, it is also inhumane and not being anti competitve. What kind of democracy is that? I guess if China was to stop the flow of rare earth shippments to the US? That would be deemed as being democractic too by offering the same competitiveness? it's playing by the same rules of US democracy isn't it? sure, it's not a blockade and they can mine them too.

There was also something called 'The Warsaw Pact', remember? Nothing to prevent China and NKR to create another alliance.

 

[gambit]

Few companies in the world including chinese companies dare to have trades with North korea . once you have trade with north Korea, you are on the blacklist of USA and you are prevented from doing business with USA. the US can convict you by their law

Japan and South Korea traded and invested in Viet Nam before President lifted the trade embargo.

Yes there was no class in socialist country. speak of bottom people, i meant the hardworking people but underpaid in most society, sale girls, waitors, dustmen, some industry workers. i am a man of integrity and have professional skills i can lead a better standard of living in China than North korea so i wont go to NK. I currently live in US for a while, i failed to see the old people who collect food from garbage bin in the street live a better life than North Korea though overwheming majority american live a better a better life in US. the people typically don't have a privildege to choose where they work and live.

No...You are a coward who does not live up to his words. If you are so concerned with the inequality in wherever you live then regardless of your skills you should pack up and move to NKR. The fact that you want a 'better life' betrayed your cowardice because despite all the supposedly 'good' things in NKR, you deemed those things inadequate. You are an intellectually inconsistent and dishonest person.

 

[Obambam]

I slightly Disagree with you... Though Democracy has many flaws but there is no substitute for it... We Indian have seen communist rule in two province , and believe me Its like hell.... communism is widely used as a tool to kill own people... Lot of ppl claiming that USA is worst abuser of Human right, but they know to save their own people... while most of the communist state kill their own people..

It is unerstandable as they cannot both co-exist within one country. You can only have one or the other. Communism isn't about killing its own people. This only happens in the early stages of communism. China has been there as well. No doubt some of the things democracy value are a good things. Democracy was given the time to mature and modernize into the democracy it is today.
Democracy too has its share of bad history such as slavery and racism which were once common and considered a norm.

 

[redfox]

Do you dispute the historical account that Ho Chi Minh INVITED France back into Viet Nam?

This is not about you. This is about information presented to a public wanting to know all sides of a historical event.

Incorrect. Communism was in China, but the ideology was not dominant. It was a competitor to other factions.

Why?

A meaningless argument. France, as a colonial power, was on the way out. WW II ensured that. But guess who brought France back in.

You were probably US borned, therefore your life has nothing to do with Viet Nam. The money I have been sending back to VN all these decades done more for VN than your convenient and shallow 'patriotism' will ever can. It helped them buy black market food and medicines. It helped with the inevitable bribes to get anything done to improve their neighborhood.

When my family name was finally removed from the communist blacklist, and yes, young one, there was such a list, I was finally able to go back for a visit, my status as an active duty US military member back then offered some additional protection. The people were miserable, hateful of the communists, but were to afraid to speak up. They do not care for the name 'Ho Chi Minh City'. It was 'Saigon' and just like how Leningrad was erased off the map, HCM City will be so and in YOUR lifetime at that.

If you care about the birth country of your parents, stop your blind support for the current government there. Do whatever you can to change its evolution into a more democratic entity and keep the pressure to maintain that course.

Your credibility is getting very slim. For a 'Nam' you claim to be and having to use information provided else where about our history is more than

disgraceful. Start learning our history from within. Don't spread information which you might not know anything about and can not be accountable for. I

suggest you start this soon!

 

[Obambam]

There was also something called 'The Warsaw Pact', remember? Nothing to prevent China and NKR to create another alliance.

The modern Chinese system doesn't agree with the santioning system which is often used as a tool to opress the smaller nations. Just like how China was against the santioning of Iran, Cuba and Zimbabwe etc. Americans seems to think it is humane to make innocent people suffer because of their selfish own interest. If democractic values hold true then they shouldn't be toying around with such a dangerous tool. I thought human rights and equality was part of the values which the system cherishes? If that is the case, then what the west is adapting to isn't the true form of democracy.

 

[Obambam]

Man..oh...man...Talk about getting desperate to save some face for China...

Man oh man..talk about desperacy to save the American and Vietnam's face. China needs not worry about its face. We have been there and did what we needed to do and peed around the false flag democracy that was one present there. We have nothing to do with your Vietnamese people now. Your country was left for your people to deal with. You have only yourselves to blame if you cannot stand up by yourselves.

Who was there to hold China's hand when we went through the hardships? It was non other than ourselves through sacrifice and determination. We are not the sour grapes here, in fact we are proud of what we Chinese people have achieved.

In other words, doing nothing constitute doing something. But here is another uncomfortable fact for you...

Pentagon Papers, Gravel Edition, Summary and Chapter I

The US never had any intention of being uninvolved as indicated by Roosevelt's comment about France's colonialism. War time necessities pushed his idea into the background, of course, and despite Roosevelt's death, Truman had no reason to abandon the idea. Ho's history with communism was already known to the US via his association with the American OSS during WW II so Truman's reluctance to accept Ho's pleas was legitimate because he knew of other non-communist allied Vietnamese nationalists. It is only a stretch of the imagination that there was malice from the US regarding Viet Nam and Ho Chi Minh's letter.

Yes in other words the stance America took was obviously not in favour of Vietnam but rather to its NATO ally France.

Here are some more uncomfortable facts for you:

Lessons of the Vietnam War by Sanderson Beck

"In August 1945 when the Japanese surrendered to the Allies, a popular revolution swept Vietnam and placed the Viet Minh in power. Under Ho Chi Minh's chairmanship the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV) was established on September 2, 1945, and the Declaration of Independence, which Ho had written, was announced. He quoted from the American Declaration of Independence and from the French Revolution's 1791 Declaration of Human and Civic Rights in order to appeal to the human rights principles of these two nations. As the Americans had done two centuries before, he listed the grievances the people had suffered under their colonial overlords, in this case the French. The document concludes:

Vietnam has the right to be free and independent
and, in fact, has become free and independent.
The people of Vietnam decide to mobilize
all their spiritual and material forces
and to sacrifice their lives and property
in order to safeguard their right of liberty and independence.1

Although President Roosevelt had wanted to see Vietnam under a United Nations trusteeship to prepare it for independence, at the Potsdam conference President Truman and British prime minister Attlee agreed to divide French Indochina at the sixteenth parallel, leaving China in control in the north and giving the British operational control over southern Vietnam. The DRV accepted this and welcomed British troops into Saigon in September. However, some dissenting Vietnamese Trotskyites were arrested and killed. The British then attacked the independence forces of the Vietnamese in order to restore to power the French colonial government in the south. The United States tacitly accepted French sovereignty over Indochina, and President Truman neglected to respond to several letters of appeal from Ho Chi Minh. Yet General MacArthur complained,

If there is anything that makes my blood boil,
it is to see our Allies in Indochina and Java
deploying Japanese troops to reconquer the little people
we promised to liberate.
It is the most ignoble kind of betrayal."

Context of '1944-1947: Ho Chi Minh Reaches out to US; US Diplomats Note He Has No Direct Ties to Soviet Union'

"1944-1947: Ho Chi Minh Reaches out to US; US Diplomats Note He Has No Direct Ties to Soviet Union Ho Chi Minh is leading the Vietminh—a popular movement of Catholics, Buddhists, small businessmen, communists and farmers—in their fight for Vietnam’s independence from the French. He makes a dozen appeals to US President Roosevelt, Secretary of State Cordell Hull, and the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee for help, insisting he is not a communist and suggesting that Indochina could be a “fertile field for American capital and enterprise.” He even mentions the possibility of allowing a US base in Camranh Bay. Likewise, US diplomats in Vietnam in their communications to Washington note that he has no direct ties to the Soviet Union and that he is a “symbol of nationalism and the struggle for freedom to the overwhelming majority of the population.”

There were no more bombings after 1975. So if you doubt the fact that there were North to South refugees during the war, you need to explain the panic after 1975 that gave us the 'boat people'. Can you do that?

We are discussing about the time when China participated in the war, not after 1975. It was neither the problem of the US nor it was the problem of China after that. It was down to the way your people govern your country.

The boat people were refugees who either left due to political reasons or in the hope for a better living. Majority of them were from the South, although some from the north hopped on to the bandwagon. This was the result of the Vietnam war and Vietnam's revolutionary process, which cannot be blamed on China.

That was not my implication but that I said it was you boys' that South Viet Nam was seeking American colonialism.

Cam on nhieu nhe em Gambit, but nope, it was not what our boys were saying. We were saying that Americans backed the French colonialization and in the end they too wanted to have a piece of the cake. Unlike China, our intention wasn't to colonize Vietnam, we were there to liberate. We assisted and we gave power back to the Vietnamese and North Korean people. Colonizing Korea or Vietnam? I am afraid it never crossed the minds of the Chinese people.

Give me a break. What 'rules' are you talking about? Where is it that communism is not allowed to compete? You mean this...

VIDEO: Communist Party Convention Kicks Off » cpusa

Oh.. that's something new! So America embraces communism too? Thanks for bringing it up. I guess the idea of communism is allowed there but forbidden elsewhere? This goes to show how lovely and hypocritically hypercritical America and the Western democracy really is.