Vietnam visit: Anti-American exhibits abound, but people are friendly

[scuthan]

Just as I expected -- more tap-dancing. The question remain: Why a war against South Viet Nam when North Viet Nam was already independent when, as you claimed that China was assisting North Viet Nam towards independence? Why did China urged that war?

china wanted help Vietnamese people to build a real independent countries rather than a imperial puppet, that's the reason why china support north Vietnam to unify vietnam. China never acknowledged south vietnam government and thus didn't declared a war against southvietnam. you have no situational awareness of 1960's international politics, at which time socialist camp spare no effort to independence of third world like religious piousness. Not only did china help vietnam, but also selfless support to Tanzania, cuba, algeria, and many African and Asian countries.

China sincerely want vietnamnese people to gain independence and had no intention to control it. did you see china control north korea?

 

[scuthan]

Just as I expected -- more tap-dancing.

is that really your perception of why china "invaded" your homeland in 1979?
I don't think history of this event is a mystery. its your hatre against chinese people make you so blind

 

[gambit]

Don't know Vietnam was one of the shorter paragraphs in the book. It was also a bit glossed over in class.

Because the Chinese government wanted to gloss over the fact that China was a co-instigator of the Vietnam War with no just cause.

Urging perhaps but in the end North Vietnamese has to take responsibility. In the end it was a civil war that neither America or China should have gotten involved in.

If China did not assured Ho that China would provide material support, NVN would be far more hesitant in starting a war because the Viet Minh knows that even with no external assistance, it would have been a bloody and long war. China's assistance offer and urging convinced NVN that shedding fellow Vietnamese blood was worth it in the name of communism.

Communism is a part of China. Denying that is pointless. However Chinese are only loyal toward China and not some ideology. You are a traitor because you have despised Vietnam simply because it is communist.

Wrong...And that continues the 'false dichotomy'. I do not hate Viet Nam. I hate the communist government that strangled a people for decades. So for you Chinese boys who wish to hide the fact that China started the Vietnam War for no just cause, that false dichotomy and its accompanying cheap and personal insults are necessary.

Use of "you boys" is getting tiresome even for you don't you think?

Not to me.

 

[Obambam]

Liberation from what? North Viet Nam was under communist control, thanks to China. South Viet Nam resisted and wanted partition. Do you not respect the will of the people?

Liberated the 80% of Vietnamese who was going to vote for Ho Chi Minh anyway until US of A got in the way and stopped the vote. That was the will of the people. That 80% against 20% is a huge numerical difference. Democratically speaking, that would have landed Vietnam into the hands of Ho Chi Minh anyway.

The French tried to fight for control but failed miserabily so Americans came over to lend a hand but suffered the same fate. It was seen as an unnecessary war by the majority of the US population and it was hugely unpopular. So running up to the 1968 American presidential election they finally bowed to the will of the people and pulled out of the war.

In the end it was a Win-Win for both Americans and the Vietnamese people. No more widespread demonstrations against the Vietnam War, no more needless bloodshed and a free country.

 

[gambit]

is that really your perception of why china "invaded" your homeland in 1979?
I don't think history of this event is a mystery. its your hatre against chinese people make you so blind

Am talking about the Vietnam War prior to 1975. Stop your tap-dancing and answer the question as to why China started it.

 

[gambit]

Liberated the 80% of Vietnamese who was going to vote for Ho Chi Minh anyway until US of A got in the way and stopped the vote. That was the will of the people. That 80% against 20% is a huge numerical difference. Democratically speaking, that would have landed Vietnam into the hands of Ho Chi Minh anyway.

Wrong...That was a flawed understanding of the situation back then. The argument and comparison was bettween Ho and Bao Dai. And even if Diem decided not to go through with the election, and he did so decided, what gave China the authority meddle in Viet Nam in the first place? Your canned answer does not explain why, if the South Vietnamese was so supportive of Ho, did they not rise against the South Vietnamese government during the 1968 Tet Offensive? Instead, after the failed campaign, the people turned against the VC with a vengeance and almost wiped them out.

The French tried to fight for control but failed miserabily so Americans came over to lend a hand but suffered the same fate. It was seen as an unnecessary war by the majority of the US population and it was hugely unpopular. So running up to the 1968 American presidential election they finally bowed to the will of the people and pulled out of the war.

In the end it was a Win-Win for both Americans and the Vietnamese people. No more widespread demonstrations against the Vietnam War, no more needless bloodshed and a free country.

Yup...When all else failed, just open up a can of communist propaganda.

 

[scuthan]

Am talking about the Vietnam War prior to 1975. Stop your tap-dancing and answer the question as to why China started it.

start what? i answered in preivous post. China never acknowledged south Vietnam and view it no more than a imperial puppet. thus china didn't declared war against a unacknowledged country. but china fully supported north viet to unify vietnam as independent country.

 

[Obambam]

Am talking about the Vietnam War prior to 1975. Stop your tap-dancing and answer the question as to why China started it.

Watch the documentary. China didn't start it. It all started with the French and Ho Chi Minh. China was only there to help. Just like the American did for the French. However, China did better and helped Vietnam gain independence. No more leash and more smiley people.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Because the Chinese government wanted to gloss over the fact that China was a co-instigator of the Vietnam War with no just cause.

As I've already mentioned I got my education in America.

If China did not assured Ho that China would provide material support, NVN would be far more hesitant in starting a war because the Viet Minh knows that even with no external assistance, it would have been a bloody and long war. China's assistance offer and urging convinced NVN that shedding fellow Vietnamese blood was worth it in the name of communism.

Hesitant perhaps but he was would've have done it with or without Chinese support. Would have resulted in more casualties as well without fear of Chinese intervention keeping American troops from crossing the 17th.

Wrong...And that continues the 'false dichotomy'. I do not hate Viet Nam. I hate the communist government that strangled a people for decades. So for you Chinese boys who wish to hide the fact that China started the Vietnam War for no just cause, that false dichotomy and its accompanying cheap and personal insults are necessary.

Well Vietnam is still communist and probably will stay that way for a long time. Thats reality. Again you state China started the Vietnam war. At worse China along North Vietnam, South Vietnam, and America started the war. Don't try to put all the blame on us.

Not to me.

Well if you want to sound like a broken clock than thats up to you.

 

[gambit]

china wanted help Vietnamese people to build a real independent countries rather than a imperial puppet, that's the reason why china support north Vietnam to unify vietnam.

But North Viet Nam was China's puppet.

China never acknowledged south vietnam government and thus didn't declared a war against southvietnam.

If that is the argument, then what gave China the moral authority to declare which government is legitimate? If the will of the people matter, which we know in communist regimes they do not, then South Viet Nam's resistance should loud enough of a declaration.

you have no situational awareness of 1960's international politics,...

Better than you do. Am willing to be that you are borned after the collapse of the USSR. Or at least too young to understand what was going on. On the other hand, I lived through the Vietnam War and the Cold War.

...at which time socialist camp spare no effort to independence of third world like religious piousness. Not only did china help vietnam, but also selfless support to Tanzania, cuba, algeria, and many African and Asian countries.

Selfless? May be. But why does that gave China the moral authority to meddle in other countries' affairs?

China sincerely want vietnamnese people to gain independence and had no intention to control it. did you see china control north korea?

Utter BS. And yes, China does control North Korea.

 

[below_freezing]

We didn't start it but ended it. The puppet regime anyways. China never had ambitions to control any other country. We fully occupied North Korea for all 3 years of the Korean War and at Kim's request, up to 1956. During that time, the PVA could have crushed the KPA like a bug and turned North Korea into a province or at least install a pro-China dictator. Instead, here's what actually happened:

in 1956 Kim requested the Chinese army to leave. We did so in 3 months.
then he rounded up his Chinese and Soviet military consultants and either shot them or deported them along with their Korean supporters.

If we wanted to control Vietnam, it would've been far easier than controlling North Korea.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Watch the documentary. China didn't start it. It all started with the French and Ho Chi Minh. China was only there to help. Just like the American did for the French. However, China did better and helped Vietnam gain independence. No more leash and more smiley people.

American documentaries are Chinese propaganda.

 

[gambit]

start what? i answered in preivous post. China never acknowledged south Vietnam and view it no more than a imperial puppet. thus china didn't declared war against a unacknowledged country. but china fully supported north viet to unify vietnam as independent country.

Now that is a gem...!!! The US was a fool. All we had to do is refuse to acknowledge Afghanistan and Iraq and all these charges of 'imperialism' and 'war for oil' would vanish.

 

[Obambam]

Wrong...That was a flawed understanding of the situation back then. The argument and comparison was bettween Ho and Bao Dai. And even if Diem decided not to go through with the election, and he did so decided, what gave China the authority meddle in Viet Nam in the first place? Your canned answer does not explain why, if the South Vietnamese was so supportive of Ho, did they not rise against the South Vietnamese government during the 1968 Tet Offensive? Instead, after the failed campaign, the people turned against the VC with a vengeance and almost wiped them out.

It wasn't flawed understanding, it was even documented in the documentary. Ho was the one requested for help and gave Chinese the green light to enter Vietnam yes? Just like how the south, clearly has no backbone, asked for themselves to be colonized some more and seeked help from the Americans. They both are in need of a strong ally, that was their vip ticket to Vietnam. Hence China and America both get to meddle in Vietnam.

Yup...When all else failed, just open up a can of communist propaganda.

It was a propaganda extravaganza either way. False flag democracy that went against the will of its people against communist who wanted to help free the leash to create its own set of rules for its people.

 

[gambit]

As I've already mentioned I got my education in America.

Now you are better educated about the Vienam War. And from a Viet at that. Feel better?

Hesitant perhaps but he was would've have done it with or without Chinese support. Would have resulted in more casualties as well without fear of Chinese intervention keeping American troops from crossing the 17th.

No...Ho would not have started the war if he was convinced that China would not supported such an endeavor. The Soviets once proposed that both Vietnams be admitted to the UN as full members. Ho nearly panicked because such a status would give South Viet Nam the moral legitimacy of a genuine state. Ho appealed to Mao and both managed to convince the Kremlin to withdraw such a proposal.

As for China willing to get into a fight against US troops, that is another propaganda line popular with the brainwashed. Here is a repost from an earlier debunking...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...e-indias-ins-vikramaditya-14.html#post1462700

Between 1962 and 1965, there were several meetings between NVN and China on the degree of China's military involvement in the Vietnam War. In May 1963, Liu Shaoqi told Ho Chi Minh that while Ho could count on China for support, such support would be that of a 'strategic rear', whatever that meant, and that China's support would be limited, whatever 'limited' mean would be up to China. There was also the on-going Sino-Soviet split at the same time and some PLA generals worried that there could be war between the Soviet Union and China. Mao could not ignore this potentiality and despite his assurance to Ho in Apr 1965 that China would escalate involvement to match America's, two crucial events made China backed off that promise.

The first crucial event was Ho's insistent on neutrality regarding the Sino-Soviet split. Mao knew that members of the NVN's Politburo were advocating that Ho should make overtures to the Soviets.

The second crucial event was after Mao and Ho negotiated some degree of Chinese military involvement where Chinese 'advisors' would build roads and assorted infrastructures and provide anti-aircraft direct support, meaning it would Chinese gunners who would be doing the shooting. The NVN's Politburo was overwhelming opposed to any Chinese military activities that would involve weapons controls. The Viet Minh was willing to put up with Chinese 'advisors' during the fight against France, but not to the degree that there would be active Chinese combat engineers battalions on Vietnamese soil. Mao conceded that North Vietnamese pilots could launch and retreat to Chinese air bases to protect them from American fighters.

Upon arrival in NVN, there were tensions between the two armies. The Chinese were better equipped and armed so there were many instances of theft by the inferior NVN troops. In return, the Chinese troops became abusive and that raised the memories of many who remembered how Chinese troops behaved towards Vietnamese peasants during the disastrous land reforms of the 1950s. Ho wanted the US to know that NVN could wield an effective air defense and that it was with Chinese help. He ordered their use at US bombers before the Chinese engineers could secure and shelter their guns. The result was that when the Americans responded, there were both high Chinese and North Vietnamese casualties as well as much destruction of valuable anti-aircraft batteries of all types.

After this disaster and Ho's ambivalence towards China regarding the Sino-Soviet split, China no longer wanted to involve China in any direct confrontation with the US military even if the SVN/US alliance cross the 17th parallel. China will continue to provide arms, training, and rear support, but not in direct combat actions. China gambled correctly that the SVN/US alliance was not interested in unification but partition and that made rhetorics credible.

Still think China would fight?

Well Vietnam is still communist and probably will stay that way for a long time. Thats reality. Again you state China started the Vietnam war. At worse China along North Vietnam, South Vietnam, and America started the war. Don't try to put all the blame on us.

Indeed I can put the blame on China. The evidences are overwhelming and least of all is the fact that China was in Viet Nam long before the US.