Vietnam Defence Forum

[jhungary]

It is worthless to discuss over and over again who wins the Vietnam war. The yellow flag does not fly over Vietnam...but in some countries like Australia. Cheers.

@jhungary

View attachment 406296

lol, It wasn't me who brought this topic up, and I am just saying what I thought about the war. The outcome of the war is hazy at best, many Military Scientist believe the result of the war is not very clean cut as it was said by most of almost everyone... Whether they had involved in the war or not.

I think for Vietnam in regards to a possible south china sea conflict, their air force would be just as important as their navy. I'm not sure whether maritime patrol aircrafts and ASW aircrafts would be operated by their navy or air force, but regardless they offer capabilities that are very important in maritime environment if Vietnam wants to restrict China in SCS. Upgrades to C4ISR and with AWAC aircrafts from their air force would give Vietnam the ability to see and shoot from various air (fighters armed with anti ship missile, asw aircraft etc..) and sea platforms( frigates, corvettes and submarines), a capability which is currently non existent in their armed force. By having the airforce work with the navy it's like a force multiplier, which is good for Vietnam because it's navy will never match PLAN in regards to it's size. Modern militaries need their military branches operating together and not separately.

If we have to look at a SCS conflict, the war would most likely decided at sea. The Airpower of Vietnam is multi-fold weaker than the Chinese (even with only South Military Command against the whole Vietnamese Air Force, on a standalone engagement, Vietnam Airforce would probably got wipe out pretty soon, as the war start and China will gain Air Superiority in the opening hours. And with Air Force gone, Vietnam Navy would be a sitting duck without Air Cover, especially so now China have 2 Aircraft Carrier. Unless Vietnam can achieve 2 things in a battle with China..

1.) They can lure the Chinese Air Force out of the ocean and into Vietnam Airspace, which combine with SAM and other Air Defence System, there may be a chance, but that would totally depends on the Chinese.

2.) Combine Service Warship and Air Power to make a stance, which effectively Combine the Navy and the Air Force and form an Advance Air Defence System that way.

That would mean the Air Force would have been playing a secondary role where surface ship would act as Radar Warning system, directing the Air force plane to intercept the incoming air threat, the Navy could also thin out the air threat a bit, which mean you will need Air Warfare Destroyer/Frigate, and Duel Role fighter (along the line of F-16, F-2, Su-24 or Su-34.)

Would Strongly not recommend buying any AWACS until you have enough resource to make sure they are staying alive in battle, otherwise it would have been a moot point because Land Base Radar would have already cover the range out to the sea already.

Well, If as you said, a navy and I think you mean a surface navy is of the utmost importance for Vietnam, then you need to address the issue of how its going to survive against the PLAN. Putting money into ships that will have to stay in the ports in case of conflict is not a wise decision other than having the minimum of ships that are needed for peacetime patrol roles. And on top of that, now there are 3 chinese bases with airfields in the Spratleys plus the upcoming chinese carriers.

Why you need surface ships?

The problem for a VN/CN engagement would mean an almost total destruction with all Vietnamese Naval Asset in the region, thus all naval base will be attacked by the Chinese by both air and sea.

Problem with Submarine is that submarine cannot stay long underwater and cannot chase down modern warship (which are doing well over 30 knots) and cannot stay underwater for a long period, basically you can stay as long as the provision allowed, and then you either need to tend to them or have to port, which is hard because almost all Naval Base are within Striking range from China. Unless you can dealt with the PLAN within a month or so before your provision ran out, you are not going to do much with a full submarine force.

On the other hand, Vietnam Air Force is not a remote match for PLAAF, that mean you either need to draw them close to Vietnam soil which they can be engaged by advance ADS deployed all over Vietnam or you will have to go up and fight them air-air, which is bad.

The only way you can remotely win a war with China is to use an Air/Sea Battle Concept developed by the United States Marine Corp which detail how a small force with limited air and sea power can engage and win a A2AD war with a near peer or better enemy.

What Air/Sea Doctrine present is that a war can be fought with a connection between Air and Sea power, which you uses your air force to support your navy and uses your navy to support the Air Force. And you cannot do that with most of your ship are sub. You can't use them to support the airforce. That's why you are going to need surface ship..

 

[TenLua]

lol, It wasn't me who brought this topic up, and I am just saying what I thought about the war. The outcome of the war is hazy at best, many Military Scientist believe the result of the war is not very clean cut as it was said by most of almost everyone... Whether they had involved in the war or not.



If we have to look at a SCS conflict, the war would most likely decided at sea. The Airpower of Vietnam is multi-fold weaker than the Chinese (even with only South Military Command against the whole Vietnamese Air Force, on a standalone engagement, Vietnam Airforce would probably got wipe out pretty soon, as the war start and China will gain Air Superiority in the opening hours. And with Air Force gone, Vietnam Navy would be a sitting duck without Air Cover, especially so now China have 2 Aircraft Carrier. Unless Vietnam can achieve 2 things in a battle with China..

1.) They can lure the Chinese Air Force out of the ocean and into Vietnam Airspace, which combine with SAM and other Air Defence System, there may be a chance, but that would totally depends on the Chinese.

2.) Combine Service Warship and Air Power to make a stance, which effectively Combine the Navy and the Air Force and form an Advance Air Defence System that way.

That would mean the Air Force would have been playing a secondary role where surface ship would act as Radar Warning system, directing the Air force plane to intercept the incoming air threat, the Navy could also thin out the air threat a bit, which mean you will need Air Warfare Destroyer/Frigate, and Duel Role fighter (along the line of F-16, F-2, Su-24 or Su-34.)

Would Strongly not recommend buying any AWACS until you have enough resource to make sure they are staying alive in battle, otherwise it would have been a moot point because Land Base Radar would have already cover the range out to the sea already.




Why you need surface ships?

The problem for a VN/CN engagement would mean an almost total destruction with all Vietnamese Naval Asset in the region, thus all naval base will be attacked by the Chinese by both air and sea.

Problem with Submarine is that submarine cannot stay long underwater and cannot chase down modern warship (which are doing well over 30 knots) and cannot stay underwater for a long period, basically you can stay as long as the provision allowed, and then you either need to tend to them or have to port, which is hard because almost all Naval Base are within Striking range from China. Unless you can dealt with the PLAN within a month or so before your provision ran out, you are not going to do much with a full submarine force.

On the other hand, Vietnam Air Force is not a remote match for PLAAF, that mean you either need to draw them close to Vietnam soil which they can be engaged by advance ADS deployed all over Vietnam or you will have to go up and fight them air-air, which is bad.

The only way you can remotely win a war with China is to use an Air/Sea Battle Concept developed by the United States Marine Corp which detail how a small force with limited air and sea power can engage and win a A2AD war with a near peer or better enemy.

What Air/Sea Doctrine present is that a war can be fought with a connection between Air and Sea power, which you uses your air force to support your navy and uses your navy to support the Air Force. And you cannot do that with most of your ship are sub. You can't use them to support the airforce. That's why you are going to need surface ship..

Nevermind the fact that the chinese military has only ever used, and is only good at one tactic; the human meat shield.

I've never seen more assumptions masquerading as facts in one post.

 

[yugocrosrb95]

@Viet

R95-300

Good enough for several thousand kilometers, maybe Beijing in range.

 

[Viet]

@Viet

R95-300

Good enough for several thousand kilometers, maybe Beijing in range.

ha ha ha...nice stuff. Maybe I will write later a bit of Vietnam military doctrine and strategy that have not changed much since centuries. ok since we can´t avoid of talking on China, Vietnamese response to the threat is probably one of the most complex, most outsiders will never understand, because it requires a deep understanding of the Chinese psychology to predict how and what they will behave in certain situations.

 

[jhungary]

Nevermind the fact that the chinese military has only ever used, and is only good at one tactic; the human meat shield.

I've never seen more assumptions masquerading as facts in one post.

Nobody ever replied to you for a reason.

And yes, the People Republic of only know how to do human wave tactics. Even for their Navy and Air Force. And they are still staying in 50s, 60s and 70s Nam era mindset.

But then wasn't this is the BIGGEST assumption of them all?

 

[Viet]

Nobody ever replied to you for a reason.

And yes, the People Republic of only know how to do human wave tactics. Even for their Navy and Air Force. And they are still staying in 50s, 60s and 70s Nam era mindset.

But then wasn't this is the BIGGEST assumption of them all?

No the PLA fighting force today is 180 u-turn from the Mao area. More dangerous more modern weaponry more professional. They learned a biter lesson from the war against Vietnam in 1979.

 

[yugocrosrb95]

@Viet
I wonder if your military is aware of such potential for research and development to yield such detterence.

 

[Viet]

@Viet
I wonder if your military is aware of such potential for research and development to yield such detterence.

Yes we know, more weapons more investments more men more R&D more everything can help. However there shouldn't be an illusion as we are talking about an opponent that can field at least 10 times more men and resources in a direct encounter.

 

[jhungary]

No the PLA fighting force today is 180 u-turn from the Mao area. More dangerous more modern weaponry more professional. They learned a biter lesson from the war against Vietnam in 1979.

lol, I was being sacarastic

 

[Nike]

lol, It wasn't me who brought this topic up, and I am just saying what I thought about the war. The outcome of the war is hazy at best, many Military Scientist believe the result of the war is not very clean cut as it was said by most of almost everyone... Whether they had involved in the war or not.



If we have to look at a SCS conflict, the war would most likely decided at sea. The Airpower of Vietnam is multi-fold weaker than the Chinese (even with only South Military Command against the whole Vietnamese Air Force, on a standalone engagement, Vietnam Airforce would probably got wipe out pretty soon, as the war start and China will gain Air Superiority in the opening hours. And with Air Force gone, Vietnam Navy would be a sitting duck without Air Cover, especially so now China have 2 Aircraft Carrier. Unless Vietnam can achieve 2 things in a battle with China..

1.) They can lure the Chinese Air Force out of the ocean and into Vietnam Airspace, which combine with SAM and other Air Defence System, there may be a chance, but that would totally depends on the Chinese.

2.) Combine Service Warship and Air Power to make a stance, which effectively Combine the Navy and the Air Force and form an Advance Air Defence System that way.

That would mean the Air Force would have been playing a secondary role where surface ship would act as Radar Warning system, directing the Air force plane to intercept the incoming air threat, the Navy could also thin out the air threat a bit, which mean you will need Air Warfare Destroyer/Frigate, and Duel Role fighter (along the line of F-16, F-2, Su-24 or Su-34.)

Would Strongly not recommend buying any AWACS until you have enough resource to make sure they are staying alive in battle, otherwise it would have been a moot point because Land Base Radar would have already cover the range out to the sea already.




Why you need surface ships?

The problem for a VN/CN engagement would mean an almost total destruction with all Vietnamese Naval Asset in the region, thus all naval base will be attacked by the Chinese by both air and sea.

Problem with Submarine is that submarine cannot stay long underwater and cannot chase down modern warship (which are doing well over 30 knots) and cannot stay underwater for a long period, basically you can stay as long as the provision allowed, and then you either need to tend to them or have to port, which is hard because almost all Naval Base are within Striking range from China. Unless you can dealt with the PLAN within a month or so before your provision ran out, you are not going to do much with a full submarine force.

On the other hand, Vietnam Air Force is not a remote match for PLAAF, that mean you either need to draw them close to Vietnam soil which they can be engaged by advance ADS deployed all over Vietnam or you will have to go up and fight them air-air, which is bad.

The only way you can remotely win a war with China is to use an Air/Sea Battle Concept developed by the United States Marine Corp which detail how a small force with limited air and sea power can engage and win a A2AD war with a near peer or better enemy.

What Air/Sea Doctrine present is that a war can be fought with a connection between Air and Sea power, which you uses your air force to support your navy and uses your navy to support the Air Force. And you cannot do that with most of your ship are sub. You can't use them to support the airforce. That's why you are going to need surface ship..

the proximity of Vietnam near Chinese, in which most of Chinese heavy units and combat group is situated near the regions (aka Southern Commands) in which comprised of South Sea Fleets (the most powerful ones) and Southern theater Commands. This is, not to mention the current intelligent gathering the Chinese do in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. I am assumed there is always little chance for Vietnam Navy and Air Forces to survive the ordeal and possible onslaught of the Chinese.

The only chance for the Vietnam to inflict heavy losses on Chinese sides and prolong the war is by investing heavily in Army/Ground units. Investing in access denial weaponry like S300, Buk M and Bastion missile is a good go. And replacing the obsolote anti armor weapons system like Sagger and Spigot with the newer ones like Metis M, Kornet, Spike is actually should be priority. Vietnam should too trying to open and invest heavily in ports in Southern region besides Cam Ranh Bay (in which must be one of the most sought target after by PLA).

 

[Carlosa]

the proximity of Vietnam near Chinese, in which most of Chinese heavy units and combat group is situated near the regions (aka Southern Commands) in which comprised of South Sea Fleets (the most powerful ones) and Southern theater Commands. This is, not to mention the current intelligent gathering the Chinese do in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. I am assumed there is always little chance for Vietnam Navy and Air Forces to survive the ordeal and possible onslaught of the Chinese.

The only chance for the Vietnam to inflict heavy losses on Chinese sides and prolong the war is by investing heavily in Army/Ground units. Investing in access denial weaponry like S300, Buk M and Bastion missile is a good go. And replacing the obsolote anti armor weapons system like Sagger and Spigot with the newer ones like Metis M, Kornet, Spike is actually should be priority. Vietnam should too trying to open and invest heavily in ports in Southern region besides Cam Ranh Bay (in which must be one of the most sought target after by PLA).

Your analysis of the threat is good in general, I keep saying the same thing in particular about the surface navy, I give it zero chance of being able to do anything, like I said, they'll be busy hiding and trying to survive. Submarines are the big equalizer for Vietnam when it comes to naval assets.

The air force has a better chance and they do have a lot of anti ship missiles. It is still worth it to boost the air force because most likely, a conflict will be in the open seas and China will probably avoid attacking the mainland. Its highly unlikely that China will attempt a land attack. Of course all of that changes if China does attack the mainland in which case the fighter jets have to be dispersed and have to try to hide them which of course is not easy. As I understand, some fighter jets have already been moved to secondary airports.

So from my perspective, the emphasis should be on more subs, keep boosting the air defense network and of particular importance would be to boost the ballistic missile forces and to deploy ground to ground cruise missiles. Those 2 elements can cause heavy damage and can actually destroy the chinese islands as well as the base in Hainan island. Of course coastal anti ship batteries such as Brahmos and Bal-E are a must. Vietnam need to also improve the remote targeting capabilities, C4ISR.

 

[Viet]

lol, I was being sacarastic

Yes I knew

 

[Viet]

Belarus, Vietnam move towards strategic partnership
President 27.06.2017 | 12:49
http://eng.belta.by/president/view/belarus-vietnam-move-towards-strategic-partnership-102790-2017/

MINSK, 27 June (BelTA) – Belarus and Vietnam move towards the establishment of strategic partnership. This is envisaged in the joint statement of Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko and Vietnam President Tran Dai Quang on the all-round and advanced development of partnership between the two countries. The document was signed after the official negotiations at the Palace of Independence, BelTA has learned.


The joint statement reflects similar positions of the two sides on the international and bilateral cooperation issues. The sides reaffirmed the commitment to the consistent development and enhancement of traditionally friendly ties between Belarus and Vietnam. It is remarked that the sides have similar approaches to the key global and regional problems. They expressed readiness to maintain close cooperation in international organizations.

On the whole, the sides expressed satisfaction with the constructive nature and progressive development of the Belarusian-Vietnamese cooperation, active exchange of visits at the top and high level in recent years. All that stabilizes existing interstate ties, helps deepen them in all fields.

The sides have reaffirmed mutual interest in the intensification of the trade and economic cooperation, mentioned its huge potential taking into account the enforcement of the free trade agreement between the EEU states and Vietnam on 5 October 2016.

The parties agreed to develop and deepen cooperation in transport machine building, agriculture, petrochemistry, light industry, information and banking technologies, electronics, mining, processing of sea and farm products, other branches of the economy.

The presidents also welcomed the establishment of the joint venture MAZ Asia for the assembly of Belarusian freight vehicles on the territory of Vietnam and expressed readiness to create favorable conditions for its work.

It was mentioned that the implementation of cooperation projects will help localize the manufacture of Belarusian hi-tech products in Vietnam, including for the joint export of equipment to the member states of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, create new jobs and raise the qualification of Vietnamese workers.

Besides, the parties pointed out broad opportunities and a resolution to take a more active part in state programs, infrastructure, energy and other projects of Belarus and Vietnam, including the projects to build the metro system, tunnels, the National Library, explore oil and other deposits in Vietnam, projects in agribusiness, communications, industrial cooperation and tourism in Belarus.

In the joint statement the presidents also mentioned the Belarusian-Vietnamese military and security cooperation, interaction in science and technology, education, healthcare, culture, sport, and tourism. Special attention was drawn to the intensification of interregional cooperation.

The sides reaffirmed the commitment of Belarus and Vietnam to international integration. The Vietnamese side confirmed its readiness to support Belarus' resolution to advance multilateral cooperation with Southeast Asian countries. The Belarusian side, in turn, is ready to provide assistance in the development of mutually beneficial cooperation of Vietnam with the EEU and CIS countries.

The sides agreed that the visit of the Vietnamese president has made an important contribution to the strengthening of traditional friendship and is an important step towards the establishment of strategic partnership between Belarus and Vietnam.

Tran Dai Quang invited Alexander Lukashenko to visit Vietnam at any convenient time. The invitation was accepted with gratitude. Concrete terms of the visit will be harmonized.

A number of bilateral documents on the development of cooperation in various fields were signed in the presence of the two leaders. These include a protocol on introducing amendments and addenda to the protocol on the production of motor vehicles on the territory of Vietnam as of 23 March 2016 between the governments of Belarus and Vietnam, a memorandum of understanding on cooperation in geology, an agreement on cooperation in physical education, sport and tourism, a provision on a military and industrial cooperation commission.

The National Academy of Sciences of Belarus (NASB) and the Vietnam Academy of Science and Technology have signed an agreement on scientific and technical cooperation. The NASB and the Vietnam Academy of Social Sciences have signed a memorandum of understanding in academic exchange and cooperation.

Brest Oblast and Lao Cai Province have signed an agreement on trade, economic, scientific and technical cooperation. Vitebsk Oblast and Vietnam's Haiphong have signed a memorandum of cooperation for 2017-2021.

Vietnam/Belarus 3-day Summit (June 26-28) in Minsk

 

[Carlosa]

India, US call for freedom of navigation amid South China Sea disputes

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-us-call-for-freedom-of-navigation-amid-south-china-sea-disputes/articleshow/59333510.cms?from=mdr

WASHINGTON: With an eye on China and the disputes in the South China Sea, Indiaand the US today called for freedom of navigation and resolving of territorial and maritime disputes peacefully in accordance with international law.

"In the Indo-Pacific region, in order to maintain peace, stability and prosperity in the region, this is also another objective of our strategic cooperation," Prime Minister Narendra Modi told reporters at the Rose Garden of the White House after his maiden meeting with President Donald Trump.

Later, a India-US joint statement on the meeting said as responsible stewards in the Indo-Pacific region, Trump and Modi agreed that a close partnership between the United States and India is central to peace and stability in the region.

"Recognising the significant progress achieved in these endeavours, the leaders agreed to take further measures to strengthen their partnership," the joint statement said.

In accordance with the tenets outlined in the UN Charter, they committed to a set of common principles for the region, according to which sovereignty and international law are respected and every country can prosper, the statement said.

To this end, Trump and Modi reiterated the importance of respecting freedom of navigation, overflight, and commerce throughout the region, it said.

The statement comes amid China being engaged in hotly contested territorial disputes in both the South China Sea and the East China Sea. Beijing has built up and militarised many of the islands and reefs it controls in the region.

China claims sovereignty over all of the South China Sea.

Vietnam, Malaysia, the Philippines, Brunei and Taiwan have counter claims.

Modi and Trump called upon all nations to resolve territorial and maritime disputes peacefully and in accordance with international law.

They also called for support in bolstering regional economic connectivity through the transparent development of infrastructure and the use of responsible debt financing practices, while ensuring respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity, the rule of law, and the environment.

Modi and Trump urged other nations in the region to adhere to these principles, the statement said.

They strongly condemned continued provocations by the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK), emphasising that its destabilising pursuit of nuclear and ballistic missile programmes poses a grave threat to regional security and global peace.

The two leaders called on North Korea to strictly abide by its international obligations and commitments.

Modi and Trump pledged to work together to counter the DPRK's weapons of mass destruction programmes, including by holding accountable all parties that support these programmes.

Trump thanked India for joining the US in applying new sanctions against the North Korean regime.

"The North Korean regime is causing tremendous problems, and is something that has to be dealt with, and probably dealt with rapidly," he said.

"Working together, I truly believe our two countries can set an example for many other nations, make great strides in defeating common threats, and make great progress in unleashing amazing prosperity and growth," Trump said.

 

[Aqsuperman]

While the air force and the navy got their priority in equipment and technology, the army got pretty much the leftover of the budget. Yet among the army arsenals that got more than several decades of usage behind them, one weapon remain unique, the Scud (R-17). This make the VPA one of two countries in the SEA region that got ballistic missiles. Operate the D variant, upgraded by North Korea and well maintained, this provides the VPA with a useful tactical weapon on the field .

A clip about the training and maintenance of the Scud