Vietnam Defence Forum

[Thao Nguyen]

The Gepards are not worth it unless they are an advance version. There are many models of the Gepards, but the version that Vietnam ordered is actually the worse one.

when Vietnam first order Gerpads, this model have just a few ship in Russian Navies, after selling to Vietnam, they start to modenize these model, after that this model get better, you can see that 3rd and 4th gerpad become better with torpedo, may be 5th and 6th can more advanced

 

[frequency]

when Vietnam first order Gerpads, this model have just a few ship in Russian Navies, after selling to Vietnam, they start to modenize these model, after that this model get better, you can see that 3rd and 4th gerpad become better with torpedo, may be 5th and 6th can more advanced

It's just money grabber. That's why Vietnam should develop its own.

 

[Thao Nguyen]

Việt Nam nhận 'ngựa thồ quân sự' C-295M thứ hai
Second C-295 start delivery to Vietnam, well come home

 

[Carlosa]

when Vietnam first order Gerpads, this model have just a few ship in Russian Navies, after selling to Vietnam, they start to modenize these model, after that this model get better, you can see that 3rd and 4th gerpad become better with torpedo, may be 5th and 6th can more advanced

Actually, the first Gepard for Russia had a Shtil 12 cell VLS and they already had a number of variants. I think Vietnam went for a simple one because they were afraid of making a mistake as with the BPS-500 so they bought the cheapest one to reduce the risk. It would it have been better to start earlier with the Sigmas and not to spend years negotiating the contract. The Gepard is quite inferior to the Sigma in many aspects and the information that I have is that the navy is not happy with it because of the same reasons. If the only difference in the second batch is just the ASW package, then that will be another disappointment.

 

[Viet]

I hope so bro, I'm looking forward to find out the details of the offer.

do you know why we have chosen a modernized version su-30 (sm) instead of su-35?

 

[Aqsuperman]

do you know why we have chosen a modernized version su-30 (sm) instead of su-35?

Personally i think that while the Su-35 is quite advanced its only have 1 crew , so he must pilot the plane and control the weapon systems at the same time which will put enormous stress on lengthy misson , the Su-30SM otherwhile have 2 crew , 1 pilot and 1 WSO , will have a better efficentcy plus its have plenty of new toys on it compare to older variant , so when it come to a fight it will perform rather well even with the Su-35 ..............but of course maybe we cant purchase Su-35 right now because of the limited budget and some funds are already relocate to some other Western aircraft ? :v

 

[Viet]

Personally i think that while the Su-35 is quite advanced its only have 1 crew , so he must pilot the plane and control the weapon systems at the same time which will put enormous stress on lengthy misson , the Su-30SM otherwhile have 2 crew , 1 pilot and 1 WSO , will have a better efficentcy plus its have plenty of new toys on it compare to older variant , so when it come to a fight it will perform rather well even with the Su-35 ..............but of course maybe we cant purchase Su-35 right now because of the limited budget and some funds are already relocate to some other Western aircraft ? :v

that makes sense considering the operating and maintenance cost would be higher if we opted for su-35 instead.
however I see as a critical point about the relative high cost of the su-30sm version. unless we get the new planes with weapons, trainings, service packets included.

su-30sm

Actually, the first Gepard for Russia had a Shtil 12 cell VLS and they already had a number of variants. I think Vietnam went for a simple one because they were afraid of making a mistake as with the BPS-500 so they bought the cheapest one to reduce the risk. It would it have been better to start earlier with the Sigmas and not to spend years negotiating the contract. The Gepard is quite inferior to the Sigma in many aspects and the information that I have is that the navy is not happy with it because of the same reasons. If the only difference in the second batch is just the ASW package, then that will be another disappointment.

my point is that to convince russia to give us the license and technology to manufacture the next frigates and subs by ourselves. the gepard may be not the most advanced ship, but if we can build it that will advance our navy defence industry.

 

[Carlosa]

do you know why we have chosen a modernized version su-30 (sm) instead of su-35?

As Aqsuperman said, the 2 pilots is a very important issue for Vietnam. India likes that too.

the SU-35 is actually more expensive than the SU-30SM.

that makes sense considering the operating and maintenance cost would be higher if we opted for su-35 instead.
however I see as a critical point about the relative high cost of the su-30sm version. unless we get the new planes with weapons, trainings, service packets included.

su-30sm
View attachment 211092


my point is that to convince russia to give us the license and technology to manufacture the next frigates and subs by ourselves. the gepard may be not the most advanced ship, but if we can build it that will advance our navy defence industry.

Well, Vietnam will build the Sigmas and they have a better modular concept for building them, so that will be a better learning experience.

that makes sense considering the operating and maintenance cost would be higher if we opted for su-35 instead.
however I see as a critical point about the relative high cost of the su-30sm version. unless we get the new planes with weapons, trainings, service packets included..

Its too early to talk about the money, we don't know what is included, what type of weapon systems, etc.

Personally i think that while the Su-35 is quite advanced its only have 1 crew , so he must pilot the plane and control the weapon systems at the same time which will put enormous stress on lengthy misson , the Su-30SM otherwhile have 2 crew , 1 pilot and 1 WSO , will have a better efficentcy plus its have plenty of new toys on it compare to older variant , so when it come to a fight it will perform rather well even with the Su-35 ..............but of course maybe we cant purchase Su-35 right now because of the limited budget and some funds are already relocate to some other Western aircraft ? :v

I would also like to see the SU-34 in the VPAF.

 

[Viet]

As Aqsuperman said, the 2 pilots is a very important issue for Vietnam. India likes that too.

the SU-35 is actually more expensive than the SU-30SM

Well, Vietnam will build the Sigmas and they have a better modular concept for building them, so that will be a better learning experience.

Its too early to talk about the money, we don't know what is included, what type of weapon systems, etc.
I would also like to see the SU-34 in the VPAF.

hm...I think we shall be able to manufacture both at home, sigma and gepard. considering we pay the same price for gepard and sigma: $600M for 2 pieces, then indeed sigma is a better deal.

by the way, what is your opinion of the visit of the communist party chief to china? I wonder why he does it now, and well before he makes the trip to america. since the oil rig provocation, for nearly a year, vietnam and chinese commie comrades don´t talk to each other. why now?

 

[BoQ77]

1. Su-30SM, developed from Su-MKI ... so development cost is Low, stability... the manufacture cost is cheap.
So Vietnam should push Russia to provide at low price.

2. Sigma is not the first ship built based on modular design, but the first ship would be integrated with Western weapons, radars...
Integration is the harder job to learn. All expensive, including training cost.

3. Gepard is the known design, with known weapons, weapons could be considered to be easy to integrate and cheap.
Agree that when Vietnam has first experience with Sigma, then the decision at that time would show which is preferable.

As my remind, schedule of building Sigma doesn't depend on Vietnam or Damen but USA.

Just few points in my opinion.

 

[Viet]

interesting event: a C-130 hercules transport aircraft of the US airforce in Danang

 

[Viet]

cool pic man

guided missile destroyer USS Fitzherald is enroute to the city, too. for a 5 day visit.

and this nice ship as well: littoral combat ship USS Forth Worth

 

[cnleio]

2015.04.02 Vietnam military officers visited PLAAF JH-7A bomber/fighter

 

[Carlosa]

As my remind, schedule of building Sigma doesn't depend on Vietnam or Damen but USA..

Do you know what elements in the Sigma ships require American permission?

1. Su-30SM, developed from Su-MKI ... so development cost is Low, stability... the manufacture cost is cheap.
So Vietnam should push Russia to provide at low price.

2. Sigma is not the first ship built based on modular design, but the first ship would be integrated with Western weapons, radars...
Integration is the harder job to learn. All expensive, including training cost.

3. Gepard is the known design, with known weapons, weapons could be considered to be easy to integrate and cheap.
Agree that when Vietnam has first experience with Sigma, then the decision at that time would show which is preferable.

As my remind, schedule of building Sigma doesn't depend on Vietnam or Damen but USA.

Just few points in my opinion.

Another way to go is to build a customized version of the Gepard with western weapon systems and radars. Russia already offers that in the Tornado class ships.

 

[BoQ77]

Do you know what elements in the Sigma ships require American permission?

Let's see the cases.

Six DHC-6-400 will be the first aircraft to patrol the West produced for the Army in Vietnam and was put on the payroll Brigade Naval Aviation 954



May 4/2010: Contract signed for 6 planes, 3 of which will be the Guardian maritime patrol variant.

Deliveries will take place from 2012 – 2014. All technical and flight training, from initial pilot qualification through to DHC-6 amphibious float operating experience, will be provided by Viking’s Pacific Sky Aviation, based at Victoria International Airport. In addition to Viking Air as a spares supplier, Team JAS in Jacksonville, FL and Universal Avionique Inc. in Miami, FL have become the first factory-endorsed component centers for Viking’s aircraft

Nov 23/2011: Training. Viking Air says that flight training has now begun in Victoria, B.C. for the first contingent of Vietnam Navy pilot delegates. It’s part of a 17-month course that includes English as a Second Language training at Camosun College, followed by flight and technical training at Viking’s sister organization, Pacific Sky Aviation.

If they run into any problems, Canada has a large Vietnamese community, especially on the west coast, so help is close at hand. Sources: Viking Air, Nov 23/11 release

July 10/2013: Training. The 1st contingent of Vietnam Navy pilot delegates graduate flight and maintenance training for the Viking Guardian 400. They represent 8 of 37 total Vietnam People’s Navy students enrolled in the program.

The program clocked about 500 flight hours and 350 cycles on runway, soft field, and water-based operations, with 6 weeks of mechanical training for the technicians. Viking Air Field Support Representatives will be based in Vietnam as a supplement. Sources: Viking Air, June 18/13 and July 10/13 releases.

Sept 5/2013: Vietnamese Navy chief of staff Vice Admiral Pham Ngoc Minh leads a ceremony in the northern city of Haiphong, forming the VPN’s DHC-6 seaplane squadron.

July 14/2014: 1st Guardian MPA. Ikhana Aircraft Services in Murrieta, CA congratulates Viking Air Ltd. and Israel’s IAI and ELTA Systems Ltd. on the delivery of Vietnam’s 1st DHC-6-400 “Guardian 400″ Twin Otter maritime patrol aircraft. Ikhana handled the conversion from DHC-6-400, using expertise from their RWMI DHC-6-300RG/-400RG™ Supplemental Type Certificate to increase maximum take-off weight, and adding internal systems along with IAI ELTA’s ELM-2022A maritime radar and day/night sensors.

When asked, Ikhana said that the other 2 Guardian 400s would be delivered by the end of the summer. Sources: Ikhana, “IKHANA Aircraft Services Congratulates Viking Air Ltd, ELTA, and the Vietnam People’s Navy for DHC-6-400 Twin Otter Guardian Delivery”.
4:28 PM - 22 Sep 2014

David C. Curtis ‏@DHC6Otter Sep 24
@vikingtwinotter Fantastic news regarding the second group of Vietnam Navy Twin Otter pilots! Congratulations!

IKHANA Aircraft ‏@IKHANAaircraft Sep 25 2014
Congrats to the team at @vikingtwinotter and the Vietnam Navy


The CN-295 case:

Venezuela

Spain went ahead with the sale of patrol ships and corvettes, but was blocked by Washington from selling Caracas C-295 transport planes and patrol aircraft because they used sophisticated US electronics, eliciting a complaint by Spain's foreign minister cited in a cable from the US ambassador in January 2006, the Post said.

• 
  

  [*]in 2006, the U.S. Government refused to authorize the sale of C-295 transport and maritime patrol aircraft manufactured by the Spanish aircraft manufacturer, EADS-CASA, to Venezuela because the aircraft included US-origin avionics and engine components controlled under the USML. As a consequence, EADS-CASA was forced to cancel a €500M contract with Venezuela; and
  [*]in 2006, Embraer of Brazil was also prevented from selling Super Tucano aircraft to Venezuela by the U.S.

Vietnam

In 2006, Washington approved non-lethal military sales to Vietnam

The commodities included in license application number 050204437 -- yoke balls and pins used to assemble electric motor pumps that are subsequently installed on C-295 aircraft -- are part of a an as-yet unsigned contract with the Vietnamese Marine Police, related to which the Department is already in possession of the end-use certificate for the pumps.

Nonetheless, he confirmed the bona fides of the potential sale of five C295s which do contain ITAR-controlled equipment to end-user Vietnamese Air Force for the stated end use of transport and passenger carriers.

This is the subject of General Correspondence 2821-09 from November 2009

According to de Teran, EADS decided to send the General Correspondence based on the fact that the planes incorporate U.S.-origin ITAR-listed items and knowing that USG policy toward Vietnam is to approve such export licenses on a case-by-case basis.

================================
Jon Grevatt, Bangkok - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
22 July 2014
The three C295 transport aircraft that Vietnam has ordered from Airbus Defence and Space (DS) are scheduled to enter service with the Vietnamese air force from 2015, IHS Jane's understands.

The purchase contract - thought to be secured in 2013 at a cost of about USD100 million - also includes the supply of spares, maintenance, and training to the air force, which is expected to take delivery of the aircraft at intervals of about six months.

It is also understood that the aircraft are being sold to Vietnam in a basic transport configuration with no additional mission systems included. Airbus DS's production of Vietnam's first C295 aircraft, which is currently under way in Seville, Spain, was revealed by IHS Jane's in June, although contract details have not previously been disclosed.

==================================

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So this one could be in the list, even after the lifting of arm sale ban last year:
MBDA Exocet MM40 Block 3

MBDA is a missile developer and manufacturer with operations in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom and the United States