Vietnam builds military muscle to face China

[beijingwalker]

Mongols by the time they reached Southern part of South China were already way over stretched. You can't expand endlessly or your will stretch yourself too thin. So India and South eastern Asia jungles were not their priorities, there is nothing there for them to loot and plunder.

 

[Viet]

Mongols by the time they reached Southern part of South China were already way over stretched. You can't expand endlessly or your will stretch yourself too thin. So India and South eastern Asia jungles were not their priorities, there is nothing there for them to loot and plunder.

You are very clueless. The Mongol knew controlling Vietnam equals controlling SE Asia landmass and the seas. It's more than looting money. The Mongol aren't pirates. They wanted to establish an Empire.

Look, America didn't bother lifting a finger when Japan invaded China. But for America the red line was crossed when Japan invaded Vietnam, or Indochina. Anyway, why I need to tell you it, as all chinese dynasties put all efforts to retake the control over Vietnam.

 

[beijingwalker]

You are very clueless. The Mongol knew controlling Vietnam equals controlling SE Asia landmass and the seas. It's more than looting money. The Mongol aren't pirates. They wanted to establish an Empire.

Look, America didn't bother lifting a finger when Japan invaded China. But for America the red line was crossed when Japan invaded Vietnam, or Indochina. Anyway, why I need to tell you it, as all chinese dynasties put all efforts to retake the control over Vietnam.

Mongols knew nothing about SE Asia, they only cared about looting and plundering, that;s why they only went after rich and developed civilizations where they could get immense spoils, they wouldn't go to Siberia or SE Asian jungles.

 

[Viet]

Mongols knew nothing about SE Asia, they only cared about looting and plundering, that;s why they only went after rich and developed civilizations where they could get immense spoils, they wouldn't go to Siberia or SE Asian jungles.

Not the Mongol but there were enough Chinese slaves in service of the Mongolian government. The Mongol army intended to further advance and conquer the kingdom of champa after defeating Dai Viet. Champa was rich and powerful, controlling the commercial sea lanes from Japan to China to Vietnam to India. Taking champa, that was actually the goal of the Mongol army when they started the military campaign against Vietnam. You obviously know nothing.

 

[beijingwalker]

SE Asia was mainly jungles region back then ,not very developed with not much wealth to distribute. don't fool yourself. And Mongols already stretch themselves too thin. If Vietnam is next to Mongolia like China is and defeated them, that would be another story.

 

[applesauce]

It is crap.

No Soviet pilot was joined to fighting with US jets in Vietnam war. It was unnecessay and Soviet Union didn't like to involeve directly in to Vietnam war. We had enough pilots whose were trained in Soviet Union in this time.

One thing I can say here, some North Korean pilots were joined in training in North Vietnam in this time, based on requet of leader of North Korea we let them joined to airfighting. They were shoot down by US airforce, so the request of North Korea was stopped.

right, because you are a more authoritative source than actual soviet veterans

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Same place as it is now, but in that time, China was slowly absorbing the Mongols. Look at the power dynamics of Mongolia vs China today lol. What about Manchu? Well, they are fully sinicized and are Chinese now. Not too bad if I must say so myself!

brief correction:

we were never able to absorb the Mongols. Instead we rose up and militarily defeated them.

 

[Aepsilons]

brief correction:

we were never able to absorb the Mongols. Instead we rose up and militarily defeated them.

Brief correction:

Mongolia was never fully able to contain the Chinese, the Chinese civilization outlived and absorbed the foreign barbarian invaders.

*By the end of the Yuan dynasty, Mongol rulers were completely and utterly Sinicized, just as the Manchu later on.*

PS: The reason for this was because the Mongol and Manchu barbarians were never immersed in Confucian ideology or Confucian lit , unlike the Japanese and Koreans who were Confucian civilizations. This is why the latter two were able to resist total assimilation with the Chinese and formed their own identity and civilization, with the Japanese being the most militant and aggressive.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Brief correction:

Mongolia was never fully able to contain the Chinese, the Chinese civilization outlived and absorbed the foreign barbarian invaders.

*By the end of the Yuan dynasty, Mongol rulers were completely and utterly Sinicized, just as the Manchu later on.*

It was only 90 years. For comparison, the only successful sinicization that occured is the Xianbei. That took 200+ years and was an active campaign on part of the Xianbei elite. For the Mongols didn't matter that they were sinicized - they were still considered barbarian outsiders that the Ming then conquered and destroyed. Manchu were *already* partially sinicized before the establishment of the Qing.

 

[Aepsilons]

It was only 90 years. It didn't matter that they were sinicized - they were still barbarian outsiders that the Ming then conquered and destroyed. Manchu were *already* partially sinicized before the establishment of the Qing.

I know the specifics, i took graduate level east asian history courses at UC Berkley, lol. And even some doctoral level classes at Rutgers New Brunswick , lol.

Just saying, mon ami. The Mongols were unable to truly subdue the Chinese. Culturally , per se.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I know the specifics, i took graduate level east asian history courses at UC Berkley, lol. And even some doctoral level classes at Rutgers New Brunswick , lol.

Just saying, mon ami. The Mongols were unable to truly subdue the Chinese. Culturally , per se.

Of course they weren't. Nobody was. But they did not lose only culturally. They lost militarily. There is a reason Mongolia never became a world power after the 14th century - Yongle Emperor's northern expeditions broke their backbone in half.

 

[Aepsilons]

Of course they weren't. Nobody was. But they did not lose only culturally. They lost militarily. There is a reason Mongolia never became a world power after the 14th century - Yongle Emperor's northern expeditions broke their backbone in half.

Mongolia actually was a global military power. The reason for their eventual failure was due to the loose based relations of their power base structure. Division and rivalry within the regional empire(s).

There was , in the end, no central administrative system.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Mongolia actually was a global military power. The reason for their eventual failure was due to the loose based relations of their power base structure. Division and rivalry within the regional empire(s).

There was , in the end, no central administrative system.

they were in the 13th century but in the 14th and 15th they fell.

Yongle Emperor's campaigns against the Mongols - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[war&peace]

China-Vietnam, even the comparison is ridiculous. Taiwan still has a great computer industry but still nothing in comparison to a rising super power of China.

 

[Aepsilons]

they were in the 13th century but in the 14th and 15th they fell.

Yongle Emperor's campaigns against the Mongols - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The reason for this is because their electoral process was archaic if not ineffective. If the Great Khan died, all generals of blood relations had to return back from their campaigns to take part in the election of the new leader. Again, the way the Mongols managed (micromanaged, macromanaged) their newly gained empire was similar as if they were ruling the steppes. This was , ultimately, the prescription for their ultimately undoing due to the cultural varieties of their subject peoples.

Kurultai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia