Vietnam acknowledged Chinese sovereignty over South China Sea in 1958

[Đảo Bạch Long Vỹ]

When did US claim South Vietnam, Peter? Never heard.

 

[Peter]

When did US claim South Vietnam, Peter? Never heard.

It is a figure of speech that between Gambit and I. So, you've never heard of it. That's fine. How's about this... do you know that South Vietnam was and never a sovereignty state, instead South Vietnam was a US's puppet?

 

[Peter]

How is assistance qualify as a denial of sovereignty? Show everyone a credible legal source for international affairs to support this argument.

How is assistance of US as to murder the very President Ngo Dinh Diem that US put him in power in the first place? You are in a denial, kiddo ... that South Vietnam was never really a sovereign state.

 

[gambit]

How is assistance of US as to murder the very President Ngo Dinh Diem that US put him in power in the first place? You are in a denial, kiddo ... that South Vietnam was never really a sovereign state.

Good...Then we say that North Viet Nam also was never a sovereign state because China helped put the Viet Minh in power. That mean North Viet Nam could not give anything to China.

 

[Luftwaffe]

How is assistance of US as to murder the very President Ngo Dinh Diem that US put him in power in the first place? You are in a denial, kiddo ... that South Vietnam was never really a sovereign state.

He is an old old man not kiddo. But girlie inside and you know men don't like to argue with girlies let girlie go my friend.

 

[Peter]

Now that is an absolutely stupid and irrelevant question. What reasons were there for South Viet Nam to engage in a war against China?

Didn't you say South Vietnam has sovereignty over the two archipelgos Paracel and Spratly? China took your two largest islands Phu Lam (Woody Is.) and Linh Con from Paracel archipelgo by force in 1956 - wasn't it an act of invasion that required no Declaration of War against China then?

If South Viet Nam was a puppet to America, then North Viet Nam was a puppet to the Soviets and China. Remember, China was in North Viet Nam long before the US was in South Viet Nam.

So what, China was helping North Vietnam to get independent from France and later to drive US out of South Vietnam ... What is the point here? What had US done for South Vietnam?

China was already pulling the political strings on the Viet Minh to the point where Chinese imposed land reform program created a famine in North Viet Nam. Cannot get any more being a puppet than that. The 'kiddo' here is YOU, kid.

It was about the Communist movement and that had nothing to do as of pulling the political strings like you said. You are confused between a movement versus being pull of political strings, dude. I guess the philosophical and politcal distinctions are too difficult for you to grasp.

Really? Here it is...

China and the United Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the PRC can be accepted as a UN member with 2/3 votes, then South Viet Nam can be accepted as a sovereign state by 10, 20, 30, or 87 other countries. You have proven yourself to be woefully ignorant and inept at research so I am going to leave you hanging in the wind just for kicks. What a funny kid you are.

You are missing the point and have not read what I asked you carefully. What did I ask you? Read again ...

So, if it is true then it must have a record of it; thus, you would have no problem to provide me the list of 87 nations that recoginized sovereignty of South Vietnam, right!? hahahhehehe...

Was it the main point when you threw out the "as did some eighty-seven other nations" recognized the sovereignty of South Vietnam?

I already read that part from Wikipedia about China and didn't I say I did not care if it was 2/3 or 3/3 because the main point was to determine if South Vietnam had had sovereignty or not ... You're not focus on the point of argument here kiddo!

And equally sad was that even after reunification, Viet Nam continued to received assistance from BOTH the Soviets and China. Am willing to bet you did not know that either.

Of course, I knew it. What is so sad about it? Receiving assistance to rebuild a country after the war is not okay? hahahehehe...

However, what is you just comment has anything to do with these exchanges:

Gambit: So was North Viet Nam without the assistance of the Soviets and China: Nothing.
Peter: This is the SAD part: So was South Viet Nam with the assistance of the United States: Nothing.

??

Dang...Talk about a sorry understanding of military affairs. The point was that just as South Viet Nam received aid from the US, North Viet Nam received aid from the Soviets and China. If you are trying to disqualify South Viet Nam as a sovereign state, then the same disqualification applies to North Viet Nam. Have any sense of logical thought process?

You're just tryingto deny the fact that aids North Vietnam versus South Viet received from are two distinct senerios. Without US aid to South Vietnam, North Vietnam would have unified the country much earlier than 1975. why, because South Vietnam never was be able to protect herself or to have her sovereignty.

Why couldn't you understand that simple logic, huh kiddo? I know, you just couldn't accept it ... that is SAD.

Wrong. Where did I said that the US 'claimed' South Viet Nam? Making up someone else's words because you are losing the debate by your own ignorance? Assistance does not qualify as a 'claim' of any country. What an illogical mind...

A figure of speech 'claim' has not reflected pretty much how US influenced and decided South Vietnam's fate through the assasination of Ngo Dinh Diem and withdral of US troops leaving remnants of a (defeated) army?

I have provided far more sources to support my arguments than you have for yours.

List of sovereign states in the 1950s - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Both North and South Viet Nams were recognized as independent states in the 1950s.

Have you not quoted Prugh's that South Vietnam "would have been a member of the United Nations itself had it not been for a Soviet veto in 1957"?

That meant, South Vietnam was not a member of the United Nations then ... You see, you think that you are ahead in this debate but you have provided contradicted data.

Why? Because you can't keep up with the TRUTH and don't know what are you talking about either ... hehehee

Yet, you said: "I have provided far more sources to support my arguments than you have for yours." - Nonsense and contradicting sources, instead!

You mocked me? Only in your deluded mind. Heck...You could not even keep track of the debate and cannot see your own illogical arguments.

Yes, I mocked you ... so what! Look at your contradicting sources that you quoted like you know everything - instead, you know jacks hehehhee

Really...??? Here is where I further embarrass you...

The Pentagon Papers, Chapter 5, "Origins of the Insurgency in South Vietnam, 1954-1960"

How!? By quoting the Pentagon Paper written by the United States?? The very country that used South Vietnam as a puppet government for her agenda? Of course, that Pentagon Papers reflected only one sided story that you really bought it whole heartedly, huh poor kiddo Gambit!

Is that clear enough? Am willing to bet that you have never heard of famous 'Pentagon Papers'. In 1957, the Soviets proposed to the UN that both Vietnams be admitted as full UN members. If that actually happened, it would cripple North Viet Nam's war efforts because it would mean North Viet Nam was conducting an aggressor war against another member state. The Soviets and the PRC would be compelled to withdraw support. That was why North Viet Nam had to petition the Soviets to veto what they originally proposed. The Vietnam War had to remain a civil war, not a war between nation-states. You are proven again to be way over your head in this debate.

You see, you LIED again. First of all, in 1954 South Vietnamese Minister of Foreign Affairs - Tran Van Do, whom refused to sign the 1954 Geneva Accords for not wanting partition. You then said, it was the Viet Minh back then, but not until 1957 by the famous Pentagon Paper to fabricate this verse: " Ho Chi Minh, in evident surprise, violently dissented." hihiiihihihi ....

Your patchwork data for the argument is impressive! .... NOT!

If you want to dismiss the UN, then we have every right to dismiss your argument that South Viet Nam was not a sovereign state, as if you had any credible for that to start. So yes, you lose again.

According to the United Nations website: Welcome to the United Nations: It's Your World - UN is an international organization founded in 1945 after the Second World War by 51 countries committed to maintaining international peace and security, developing friendly relations among nations and promoting social progress, better living standards and human rights.

So much of bragging but have you seen the UN done anything in the dispute of two archipelgos Paracel and Spratly between claimant-nations in the area since the day its organiztion was founded in 1945? NIL, dude ...

How hilariously your childish logic was, dear Gambit! Oh, because China did not need UN to say okay or not okay to her claim - then you can dismiss my argument that South Viet Nam was not a sovereign state.

South Viet Nam was not a sovereign state is the fact, needless to argue with what has had happened in Vietnam history since 1954 to 1975.

Moreover, China is one of five permanent members have the power to veto any substantive resolution, so you never win.

SAD, but you have to face it Gambit ...

Another piece of evidence of an illogical mind. The US violated North Vietnamese airspace at will regardless of losses. By your own argument, that mean North Viet Nam did not have control of its territory and therefore was not a sovereign state. Remember, this is the standard you want to apply to South Viet Nam.

In the war, fight back and forth is normal activities. What happen at the end of the war was that South Vietnamese Army surrended to North Vietnam. North Vietnam was never lack of her control of its territory - a sovereign state - to the date she unified Vietnam. Only your illogical mind twisted it to suit your debased needs.

What a sorry line of debate. Again...You asserted that since there were two parties fighting for control of Viet Nam, that disqualify South Viet Nam as possessor of the islands. By the same standard, since the PRC was NOT a UN admitted representative for China because of the civil war between the PRC and ROC, that division disqualified the PRC from making any claim upon the islands. Your illogical mind made you clearly the loser here.

Hahahahha ... you must be still high on drug off the ground of realities, huh Gambit! In 1956, when two largest islands Phu Lam (Woody Is.) and Linh Con had been taken by China, China was done of Civil War. By the way, Civil War in China happened between 1945 through 1949 and that even before the 1954 Geneva Conference also. Have you not taken any classes of history ever in your life, huh kiddo? What claim that China can not make?

You never win, and that is your fate.

Good...Then so far the Chinese have provided no credible evidences that China had CONTINUOUS administrative presence on the islands. Viet Nam does.

Vietnam does what? Vietnam had CONTINUOUS administrative presence on every islands from the two archipelgos? LIE like HELL

Viet Nam does.

Vietnam does what? Vietnam can disclaim what China has under control? Your next life, ...next life ... maybe! hihiihihihi ... Childish talk!

Wrong...I absolutely debunked your arguments left and right, up and down, and inside out. I provided sources for my arguments while you have nothing for yours.

You are good dude. Very good, in fact - you can be a great fiction writer of this forum with you contradicting sources and illogical mind.

Yeah ... ...you have debunked jacks!!!

 

[Peter]

How is assistance of US as to murder the very President Ngo Dinh Diem that US put him in power in the first place? You are in a denial, kiddo ... that South Vietnam was never really a sovereign state.

Good...Then we say that North Viet Nam also was never a sovereign state because China helped put the Viet Minh in power. That mean North Viet Nam could not give anything to China.

Good .. what?

That you are in a denial that China helped North Vietnam to drive US troops out of South Vietnam to unify a country into an Independent Vietnam?

OR

That you are in a denial that US had murdered the very President Ngo Dinh Diem that US put him in power in the first place?

BTW, North Vietnam did give away the islands in exchange for the assistance from China - it is not nothing or couldn't as you said.

 

[gambit]

Didn't you say South Vietnam has sovereignty over the two archipelgos Paracel and Spratly? China took your two largest islands Phu Lam (Woody Is.) and Linh Con from Paracel archipelgo by force in 1956 - wasn't it an act of invasion that required no Declaration of War against China then?

No need to declare war against China. Just evict the few Chinese troops from the islands.

So what, China was helping North Vietnam to get independent from France and later to drive US out of South Vietnam ... What is the point here? What had US done for South Vietnam?

The point here is that using your own standards, any assistance constitute a puppet state. So if China assisted North Viet Nam in anyway, that made North Viet Nam a puppet state to China. Why do you deny your own standards?

It was about the Communist movement and that had nothing to do as of pulling the political strings like you said. You are confused between a movement versus being pull of political strings, dude. I guess the philosophical and politcal distinctions are too difficult for you to grasp.

No, the one who is unable to grasp anything here is YOU. China entered Viet Nam long before the US did. China helped the Viet Minh into power. China forced the Viet Minh into imposing Chinese land reforms that resulted in famine. Movement or not, China was pulling the strings in North Viet Nam. That made North Viet Nam a puppet state to China.

You are missing the point and have not read what I asked you carefully. What did I ask you? Read again ...

Was it the main point when you threw out the "as did some eighty-seven other nations" recognized the sovereignty of South Vietnam?

I already read that part from Wikipedia about China and didn't I say I did not care if it was 2/3 or 3/3 because the main point was to determine if South Vietnam had had sovereignty or not ... You're not focus on the point of argument here kiddo!

It does not matter if you cared or not. What mattered is that if you disqualify South Viet Nam, the same criteria can be used to disqualify China: The number of countries that recognized a country's sovereignty.

Of course, I knew it. What is so sad about it? Receiving assistance to rebuild a country after the war is not okay? hahahehehe...

Yes, it is okay. But going by your standards, that made Viet Nam a puppet state to China, just like how North Viet Nam was a puppet state to China. Remember, I am going by YOUR standards.

You're just tryingto deny the fact that aids North Vietnam versus South Viet received from are two distinct senerios. Without US aid to South Vietnam, North Vietnam would have unified the country much earlier than 1975. why, because South Vietnam never was be able to protect herself or to have her sovereignty.

And without Soviets and Chinese aid to North Viet Nam, South Viet Nam would have unified the country much earlier than 1975. Why? Because North Viet Nam was never able to protect herself or to have her sovereignty. Am going by your arguments.

Why couldn't you understand that simple logic, huh kiddo? I know, you just couldn't accept it ... that is SAD.

What is truly sad is that am using your own standards and arguments against you. Over and over to disqualify North Viet Nam and China.

A figure of speech 'claim' has not reflected pretty much how US influenced and decided South Vietnam's fate through the assasination of Ngo Dinh Diem and withdral of US troops leaving remnants of a (defeated) army?

A 'figure of speech'? What a laugh...!!! You got busted with your own arguments so now you are saying that 'claim' is a 'figure of speech'? Looky here, kid, if assistance qualify the taking of sovereignty, then Soviets and Chinese assistance to North Viet Nam made North Viet Nam a puppet state to those two countries. It mean North Viet Nam was never a sovereign state. Remember, this is YOUR standards.

Have you not quoted Prugh's that South Vietnam "would have been a member of the United Nations itself had it not been for a Soviet veto in 1957"?

That meant, South Vietnam was not a member of the United Nations then ... You see, you think that you are ahead in this debate but you have provided contradicted data.

No contradiction here. But if you want to use this argument, then because the PRC was never a UN member, any PRC claim to the islands are worthless.

Why? Because you can't keep up with the TRUTH and don't know what are you talking about either ... hehehee

Yet, you said: "I have provided far more sources to support my arguments than you have for yours." - Nonsense and contradicting sources, instead!

They are contradicting because you are an illogical person. You cannot keep up with your own arguments, let alone the debate. You are ignorant of many vital facts about the concept of sovereignty and the Vietnam War. Intelligent readers are laughing at you.

How!? By quoting the Pentagon Paper written by the United States?? The very country that used South Vietnam as a puppet government for her agenda? Of course, that Pentagon Papers reflected only one sided story that you really bought it whole heartedly, huh poor kiddo Gambit!

Once again, this shows your ignorance about the subject. The Pentagon Papers is one of the most important document used by Vietnam War critics. So for you to dismiss it shows you are over your head in this subject.

You see, you LIED again. First of all, in 1954 South Vietnamese Minister of Foreign Affairs - Tran Van Do, whom refused to sign the 1954 Geneva Accords for not wanting partition. You then said, it was the Viet Minh back then, but not until 1957 by the famous Pentagon Paper to fabricate this verse: " Ho Chi Minh, in evident surprise, violently dissented." hihiiihihihi ....

Shows you have reading comprehension problem. He objected to UN membership in that passage. Here it is again...

But domestic difficulty was not the only crisis to confront the Lao Dong leaders in early 1957. In January, when the Soviet Union proposed to the United Nations the admitting of North and South Vietnam as separate states, it signalled that the USSR might be prepared in the interests of "peaceful coexistence," to make a great power deal which would have lent permanency to the partition of Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh, in evident surprise, violently dissented.

That was in 1957. The 1954 Geneva Accords was when the country was provisionally partitioned. UN membership would make this partition much more permanent. Learn to read, my friend.

Your patchwork data for the argument is impressive! .... NOT!

And your arguments are impressive...NOT...Especially when your ignorance is obvious.

According to the United Nations website: Welcome to the United Nations: It's Your World - UN is an international organization founded in 1945 after the Second World War by 51 countries committed to maintaining international peace and security, developing friendly relations among nations and promoting social progress, better living standards and human rights.

So much of bragging but have you seen the UN done anything in the dispute of two archipelgos Paracel and Spratly between claimant-nations in the area since the day its organiztion was founded in 1945? NIL, dude ...

How hilariously your childish logic was, dear Gambit! Oh, because China did not need UN to say okay or not okay to her claim - then you can dismiss my argument that South Viet Nam was not a sovereign state.

South Viet Nam was not a sovereign state is the fact, needless to argue with what has had happened in Vietnam history since 1954 to 1975.

Moreover, China is one of five permanent members have the power to veto any substantive resolution, so you never win.

But the PRC was not recognized as representative for China back in 1954, 1957, and in 1958. So if you want to disqualify South Viet Nam because the country was not a UN member, then by YOUR standards, both North Viet Nam and China are equally disqualified. You lose, badly.

In the war, fight back and forth is normal activities. What happen at the end of the war was that South Vietnamese Army surrended to North Vietnam. North Vietnam was never lack of her control of its territory - a sovereign state - to the date she unified Vietnam. Only your illogical mind twisted it to suit your debased needs.

Wrong...Going by YOUR standards, the repeated airspace violations of North Viet Nam by the USAF and even occassionally by the South Vietnamese Air Force mean North Viet Nam was never a sovereign state. Airspace is very much territory. More ignorance from you.

Hahahahha ... you must be still high on drug off the ground of realities, huh Gambit! In 1956, when two largest islands Phu Lam (Woody Is.) and Linh Con had been taken by China, China was done of Civil War. By the way, Civil War in China happened between 1945 through 1949 and that even before the 1954 Geneva Conference also. Have you not taken any classes of history ever in your life, huh kiddo? What claim that China can not make?

Sorry...But this is about the PRC. The ROC was recognized by the UN as representative for China. So going by YOUR standards, the lack of UN membership means lack of legitimacy. That mean the PRC's claim to the islands is worthless.

You never win, and that is your fate.

I won a long time ago. Thanks to your ignorance, which is obvious. And thanks to your illogical mind, which is equally obvious.

 

[gambit]

Good .. what?

That you are in a denial that China helped North Vietnam to drive US troops out of South Vietnam to unify a country into an Independent Vietnam?

OR

That you are in a denial that US had murdered the very President Ngo Dinh Diem that US put him in power in the first place?

BTW, North Vietnam did give away the islands in exchange for the assistance from China - it is not nothing or couldn't as you said.

Good that we can go by YOUR standards that assistance equal to being a puppet state. So if South Viet Nam was a puppet state to the US, then North Viet Nam was a puppet state to the Soviets and China.

Good that if we go by YOUR standards, if South Viet Nam was not a sovereign state, then neither was North Viet Nam and China.

This is double jeopardy for you, kid. An illegitimate claimant -- the PRC -- received a confirmation from an equally illegitimate partner -- North Viet Nam.

 

[happycanuck]

Peter :
keep on weaving your own web to get trapped. You have got a formiddable opponent in gambit.

 

[Peter]

Good that we can go by YOUR standards that assistance equal to being a puppet state. So if South Viet Nam was a puppet state to the US, then North Viet Nam was a puppet state to the Soviets and China.

Good that if we go by YOUR standards, if South Viet Nam was not a sovereign state, then neither was North Viet Nam and China.

You can't even repeat my standards correctly and truthfully, kiddo ...

Let I set it up correctly so that you can follow from now on - okay.

Not A Puppet State - Assistance but not to murder your President/Leaders once he is not agree to your plan; your sovereignty remain even after no more assistance is receivced.

A Puppet State - Assistance as long as your President/Leaders obey else murder your President/Leaders once he is not agree to your plan; your puppet sovereignty gone once no more assistance is receivced.

Now, go apply to what you have learned from my instruction to see if you can do this homework right .... okay Gambit

This is double jeopardy for you, kid. An illegitimate claimant -- the PRC -- received a confirmation from an equally illegitimate partner -- North Viet Nam.

PRC claimed and took what her wants at the same time and Vietnam can't do nothing about it.