***** USA This is the Wrong Time to Physically Confront China Now *****

[HRM YANG]

Ni Hao Ma @HRM YANG ,

Thanks for your analysis. Let me give an objective evaluation of the ROC military capability so we can best analyze the situation on ground.

The Republic of China’s armed forces number approximately 290,000, with 130,000 in the army, 45,000 in the navy and marine corps, and approximately 80,000 in the air force. Traditionally the army has been the dominant service, but that has shifted over the years. Taiwan’s military doctrine states that as much of any fighting that occurs should take place as far from population centers as possible. The army is only relevant once the enemy lands on the island, while the navy and air force can range over the strait.

The Republic of China Navy (RoCN) has transitioned from the most neglected arm of the Taiwanese military to the most important. The RoCN alone can defeat an invasion fleet at sea. Sinking amphibious transports not only takes a large ground force out of action, but also permanently degrades the enemy’s amphibious capability.

The RoCN has 26 large surface combatants, all of which have a potent anti-ship capability. The largest ships in the fleet are the four Kee Lung-class guided-missile destroyers, formerly the U.S. Kidd class destoyers.

At about10,000 tons, each destroyersports two Mk.26 twin surface to air missile (SAM) launch systems armed with Standard SM-2 Block IIIA surface-to-air missiles, two Mk. 45 127mm guns, four Harpoon Block II anti-ship missiles and has a helicopter flight deck and hangar.

The remaining large surface vessels are a mixture of American and French designs.

The eight Cheung Kung class of guided missile frigates are a modified version of the long-hull Oliver Hazard Perry class. The class is armed with a Mk.13 missile launcher forward, capable of firing SM-1MR surface-to-air and Harpoon anti-ship missiles, and a 76mm Oto Melara gun amidships.

The frigates also carry 8 Hsiung Feng II anti-ship missiles, giving the small ships a powerful anti-ship capability. Each carries an S-70 Thunderhawk helicopter, an export variant of the SH-60B Seahawk.

Taiwan has eight frigates of the former U.S. Knox class destroyers, now the Chi Yang class. The ships mount the original armament of one Mk. 45 127mm gun and one ASROC launcher. The Chi Yang class has also been retrofitted with ten SM-1MR surface-to-air missiles in external canister launchers. The ships each carry one MD-500 ASW helicopter.

Rounding out large surface combatants are the Kang Ting-class frigates. A modification of the La Fayette design, the Kang Ting frigates mount one 76mm gun and a navalized Chaparral missile launcher for air defense. 8 Hsiung Feng anti-ship missiles are carried, and typically one S-70 Thunderhawk helicopter.
Taiwan has made a significant investment in small, fast missile patrol craft designed to take on much larger Chinese surface and amphibious ships. Twelve missile patrol combatants of the Jing Chiang class were built — each 680 tons fully loaded — with a 76mm gun and mine-laying racks.

There are also 34 smaller ships of the 150 ton Kung Hua VI project. Ships of both classes are each equipped with 4 Hsiung Feng anti-ship missiles. This diminutive fleet collectively weighs just over 13,000 tons but altogether packs a total of 184 anti-ship missiles.

Now what about ROC's Air Denial Capability? Oh its impressive !


The Republic of China Air Force (RoCAF) is optimized for air superiority. China could not successfully invade without seizing air superiority, and as a result Taiwan’s air force is seen as one of the primary deterrents to Chinese military action. Taiwan’s fighters were state of the art in the 1990s, when most of the aircraft were purchased. Time and China’s air power buildup have eroded their technological edge — opening up the possibility that China could successfully contest air superiority over the island.

The RoCAF currently has 146 F-16 A/B Block 20 multirole fighters, armed with AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles. It also operates 55 Mirage 2000 multirole fighters, armed with Magic air-to-air missiles. Rounding out Taiwan’s main fighter inventory are 126 Ching-kuo Indigenous Fighters, armed with locally developed Sky Sword II air-to-air missiles.

The air force also operates the nationwide air defense network, with 11 early warning sites overall. Main air defense is provided by Taiwan’s indigenously produced TIEN KUNG II surface-to-air missiles. Radar guided, Tien Kung II has a range of 125 miles and is deployed at six bases, four on Taiwan and two on nearby island groups.

Each base includes 80 missiles in underground silos and two target illumination radars. A range of 125 miles means Tien Kung missiles could theoretically engage targets over the mainland.




I think it is important for all relevant members here, my friend, to evade in generalizing what they think the United States may or may not do. It was the height of arrogance that the Imperial Military Command of the Japanese Empire thought that the United States would be unable to penetrate the Japanese Empire's Vast Territorial Defense , specifically its island defense strategy in the Pacific. Japanese commanders, then of course, believed that the United States would sue for peace after being forced to take Japanese-held islands in the Pacific. Lo and behold the Imperial Military Command did not believe or comprehend that the United States would utilize an assymetric warfare doctrine known as 'Island Hopping', specifically bypassing largely well defended and well fortified island fortifications such as Rabaul, Taiwan etc. The United States were also capable of launching the largest naval invasion to retake territory (The Philippines) from the 14th Area Imperial Japanese Army Command.

At the time, the Philippines was occupied by the 14th Area Imperial Japanese Army , with a force of over 450,000 battle hardened soldiers, a division of Imperial Guards, several divisions of Rikusentai (Imperial Naval Marines). The United States had mobilized the 8th and 6th United States Armies to retake the Philippines, supported by the several Divisions of United States Marine Corp --- totalling an invasion force of over 1,200,000. Their Pacific Fleet had engaged the Combined Imperial Fleet and fought with us in the largest naval battle known in the history of man. In the Battle of Leyte Gulf, Battle of Lingayen Gulf, Battle of Surigao Straits.

It is foolish, my friend, in trying to predict what the United States is willing to do when push comes to shove. A mistake that had been a costly one for the Japanese Empire, The German Third Reich, and the Fascist Italy.

Never , Ever, Ever, underestimate the American Resolve. And I say this out of sincere respect.

@SvenSvensonov @Transhumanist ---- your input? Thoughts ?

こんにちは! Yes I have viewed them on Wikipedia for many times. Taiwan defense can be considered sizable, but related to DPRK or Philippine.
Apart from this, Taiwanese can't sustain 100% condition when facing PLA's offense, so many things need to be take account of. We CHINESE believe:不做则已，做则做绝。In English: If we have decided to do something, we will be well prepared and with with elaborated plan, back up by unbreakable resolution and never give in until victory comes. If we have to take action to TW, their logistic and command system will be paralyzed in advance... I am not sure whether TW army will consider those are just ignorable harassments and just affect a fraction, but they are not 100% when the exhaustive war begins which I can pledge.
Hey, mister, don't stay up late for so frequent, not good for your health

 

[Huan]

The United States can be said as the re-manifastation of Rome. By all measures, she is a Republic like Rome, she is Multicultural like Rome, she is a Hegemon like Rome, a democracy like Rome. No power on earth , bar none, has this much global clout as the United States.

The United States is not something that should be ignored, my Taiwanese friend. By ignoring and pretending that the United States does not exist will not remove her existence. Remember the mistake of the Ming Dynasty (and to an extent the Tokugawa Bakufu) in closing the doors to the west, pretending that the foreign powers were ignorable , abominable inferior peoples and worthy of ignoring. Lo and behold in the 200 years of such closed door policy, the West conquered the world , Asia-specifically.

The Americans have a ravenous military culture, and a military command that can wreck havoc if ever unleashed. Shakespeare said it best, 'Let loose the dogs of war'. Well that's what will happen in a war with the United States.

@Nihonjin1051 my friend, how much of American military capabilities will be intact after a full war with China? We have to keep in mind that Russia under Putin would be waiting to stab us in the back after the event. On top of that, both China and Russia have nuclear armaments. Too darn risky.

 

[Aepsilons]

Than let us not forget today Rome is nothing but reduced to few old buildings and an extinct language spoken by few people for academic purpose only. Every empire sooner or later will come down, its only a matter of time. Its highly unlikely that American Empire will exist even 1/10th of time as Roman Empire did. The history repeats itself, every empire thinks its different from the one before but its not. All shall meet the same fate.

You usher truth in that all empires rise and fall, but it is the civilization upon which that empire created is the basis and legacy that outlives imperial dynasties. Yes? Take for example, Japan. The Japanese Civilization of today exists, it is a continuation of the great Yamato Civilization of the early Japanese Empire. Japanese society, Japanese civilization is unbroken with the same hereditary family on the throne for over 27 centuries (older than Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, btw). However, the Japanese Empire no longer 'exists', since it collapsed in 1945. However, the civilization that it created does.

I can say the same for let's say in Southeast Asia. The Mon Khmer Empire existed almost 1500 year ago, and produced the basis of Indic culture in South East Asia, brought in the concept of Deva Raja into the land , imbued all localities from the Chao Praya river basin of present day Thailand, to the Mekong Delta of present day Viet Nam to the Vieng Chang basin in present day Laos with Mon-Khmer writing, Mon-Khmer words, Mon-Khmer dance styles (Reamkear in Khmer, and the Thais would refer to it as Ramakien; its based on the Hindu epic Ramayana). Tho the Mon Khmer Empire would collapse with the arrival of the Tais from Southern China, create new empire civilizations known as Siam (Ayudhaya, Pitsunalok, Sri Chiang Rai), create new civilzations known as Sri Champa (present day South Vietnam), as well as the arrival of the Burmese dynasties (Tongoo, Bauyinaug) --- the civilizations of these successor states maintained the Mon-Khmer link. You see how civilization outlasts the progenitor Empire?

The same an be said, my friend of Rome. Rome as an Empire collapsed, but the civilization that it founded, Western Civilization, is well alive and 'tickin', lol. The United States, for all tense and purposes, is an extension, a re-manifestation of Pax Romana. Actually. It is a Western Civilization, a Roman calculation.



Even the symbolism is of Roman Origin...

 

[TheTruth]

The United States can be said as the re-manifastation of Rome. By all measures, she is a Republic like Rome, she is Multicultural like Rome, she is a Hegemon like Rome, a democracy like Rome. No power on earth , bar none, has this much global clout as the United States.

And they will collapse on their own sins like Rome.

No one in China ignores the United States. They are dangerous, murderous savages who must be watched carefully. Don't confuse base opportunism with bravery or principles.

You're not going to win any sort of history wars with China. Keep in mind what happens to all of China's enemies in the long run. They are absorbed and assimilated or exterminated without mercy.

Even the symbolism is of Roman Origin...

In history we should distinguish true historical heirs from risible pretenders. All the little boys in Europe playing Czar and Kaiser certainly were no Romans.

 

[macnurv]

You usher truth in that all empires rise and fall, but it is the civilization upon which that empire created is the basis and legacy that outlives imperial dynasties. Yes? Take for example, Japan. The Japanese Civilization of today exists, it is a continuation of the great Yamato Civilization of the early Japanese Empire. Japanese society, Japanese civilization is unbroken with the same hereditary family on the throne for over 27 centuries (older than Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, btw). However, the Japanese Empire no longer 'exists', since it collapsed in 1945. However, the civilization that it created does.

I can say the same for let's say in Southeast Asia. The Mon Khmer Empire existed almost 1500 year ago, and produced the basis of Indic culture in South East Asia, brought in the concept of Deva Raja into the land , imbued all localities from the Chao Praya river basin of present day Thailand, to the Mekong Delta of present day Viet Nam to the Vieng Chang basin in present day Laos with Mon-Khmer writing, Mon-Khmer words, Mon-Khmer dance styles (Reamkear in Khmer, and the Thais would refer to it as Ramakien; its based on the Hindu epic Ramayana). Tho the Mon Khmer Empire would collapse with the arrival of the Tais from Southern China, create new empire civilizations known as Siam (Ayudhaya, Pitsunalok, Sri Chiang Rai), create new civilzations known as Sri Champa (present day South Vietnam), as well as the arrival of the Burmese dynasties (Tongoo, Bauyinaug) --- the civilizations of these successor states maintained the Mon-Khmer link. You see how civilization outlasts the progenitor Empire?

The same an be said, my friend of Rome. Rome as an Empire collapsed, but the civilization that it founded, Western Civilization, is well alive and 'tickin', lol. The United States, for all tense and purposes, is an extension, a re-manifestation of Pax Romana. Actually. It is a Western Civilization, a Roman calculation.



Even the symbolism is of Roman Origin...

My point was never about civilizations but that of empires, although at times empires are the driving vehicle for civilizations. There are other examples as well not only Japan and Rome but how about Persians, Ottoman etc? My point was simple, that every empire that rises one day will fall, but for an empire to claim the whole of a civilization is wrong. America is an empire without a doubt and one that heavily influenced by the romans, but stating whole of western civilization owes its existence to Rome is factually wrong. If any it were the Greeks who can be called as the founders of Western civilization, not the Romans.

 

[Aepsilons]

And they will collapse on their own sins like Rome.

No one in China ignores the United States. They are dangerous, murderous savages who must be watched carefully. Don't confuse base opportunism with bravery or principles.

You're not going to win any sort of history wars with China. Keep in mind what happens to all of China's enemies in the long run. They are absorbed and assimilated or exterminated without mercy.



In history we should distinguish true historical heirs from risible pretenders. All the little boys in Europe playing Czar and Kaiser certainly were no Romans.

They have every right to claim Roman linkage. As they were directly influenced, in genesis, by Roman Empire's calculus.

 

[HRM YANG]

The United States can be said as the re-manifastation of Rome. By all measures, she is a Republic like Rome, she is Multicultural like Rome, she is a Hegemon like Rome, a democracy like Rome. No power on earth , bar none, has this much global clout as the United States.

The United States is not something that should be ignored, my Taiwanese friend. By ignoring and pretending that the United States does not exist will not remove her existence. Remember the mistake of the Ming Dynasty (and to an extent the Tokugawa Bakufu) in closing the doors to the west, pretending that the foreign powers were ignorable , abominable inferior peoples and worthy of ignoring. Lo and behold in the 200 years of such closed door policy, the West conquered the world , Asia-specifically.

The Americans have a ravenous military culture, and a military command that can wreck havoc if ever unleashed. Shakespeare said it best, 'Let loose the dogs of war'. Well that's what will happen in a war with the United States.

I completely realize your stance and......indeed America/American this nation behaves outstanding, if compare with many countries and nations.
Military especially, USArmy is a respectable military, I always believe the victory of USArmy came from not only the advanced weapons but also spirit and sacrifice.
But what is alike, CHINESE means Almost infinity endurance, but not a container of divestment and defiance.
Militarism never diminishes but comes higher, Because we are more proud of our country and we are staying in an erratic world, if someone is keen on devastating our contributions, our outrage will be 100 times higher them before.

 

[TheTruth]

They have every right to claim Roman linkage. As they were directly influenced, in genesis, by Roman Empire's calculus.

Most of these claims are tenuous at best. American society is only superficially related to Rome, and only in the worst ways.

 

[Aepsilons]

My point was never about civilizations but that of empires, although at times empires are the driving vehicle for civilizations. There are other examples as well not only Japan and Rome but how about Persians, Ottoman etc? My point was simple, that every empire that rises one day will fall, but for an empire to claim the whole of a civilization is wrong. America is an empire without a doubt and one that heavily influenced by the romans, but stating whole of western civilization owes its existence to Rome is factually wrong. If any it were the Greeks who can be called as the founders of Western civilization, not the Romans.

Europe as a whole has a rich and eclectic cultural legacy of inter-dependency in regards to cultural exchange. The Roman-Greco link definitely is there as Southern Italy was actually a colony of the Hellenistic World. The Etruscans, which were north of what is now present day Rome were a Latin kingdom, but heavily Hellenized. Rome, which conquered Etrusca, as well the Greek colonies of Southern Italy merely incorporated those into its own. So yes, you have a point of the shared legacy between Greece and Rome. Greece initiated some concepts such as democracy, even influenced the early styles of warfare ergo phalanx line, the concept of hammer and anvil tactics used by Prince Philip (father of Prince of Macedon, Alexander the Great). Eventually, the Romans would build more on their cultural contributions and spread not Greco culture, but Latin Culture. Even in modern medicine , modern law, the language of the Romans still ushers forth.

In medicine , when the physician describes the top portion of your skin, specifically the epithelium he will mark the main layers:

1. Stratum Corneum
2. Stratum Granulosum
3. Stratum Lucidum
4. Stratum Spinosum
5. Stratum Basale

These are all Latin words

When you go to your physical therapist , and he or she tells you to flex your arms, he will tell you that you are moving your Biceps Brachialis muscle, or your Triceps. These are latin words.

If you are a lawyer, and you are talking to another councilor asking for aid. He will say to you, "Quid pro quo". A Latin term.

If you go into Medicine, Nursing, Physical Therapy, Health Field , or Law ---- you know as well as i do you will have to know Latin. The Language of the Romans.

Their influence in modern society is felt ---- everywhere.


------

I enjoyed this discussion. But we will have to pick this up again tomorrow. I must get going. Papers to grade !!!!

Best,
@Nihonjin1051

 

[TheTruth]

These are all Latin words

When you go to your physical therapist , and he or she tells you to flex your arms, he will tell you that you are moving your Biceps Brachialis muscle, or your Triceps. These are latin words.

If you are a lawyer, and you are talking to another councilor asking for aid. He will say to you, "Quid pro quo". A Latin term.

If you go into Medicine, Nursing, Physical Therapy, Health Field , or Law ---- you know as well as i do you will have to know Latin. The Language of the Romans.

Their influence in modern society is felt ---- everywhere.

All of it is pretension, reflective of the prestige accorded to law and medicine.

 

[Aepsilons]

All of it is pretension, reflective of the prestige accorded to law and medicine.

No it is not pretension, my friend, it is shear body of knowledge. Let's continue this tomorrow. I really cannot spare anymore time in replies, i have papers to grade. And you know how 'addictive' this site is for me.

So please, save your replies till tomorrow.

I beg you.


Thanks.

 

[TheTruth]

Good night!

 

[Huan]

Most of these claims are tenuous at best. American society is only superficially related to Rome, and only in the worst ways.

We spend an excessive, gigantic amount of money on sports.

 

[TheTruth]

We spend an excessive, gigantic amount of money on sports.

Yes, lots of wasted time and money

 

[terranMarine]

On the contrary, the US will never admit she has too much on her plate because as the world's strongest her judgement is clouded by nationalistic pride. So despite the never ending mess in the Middle East, political turmoil in Afghanistan, Ukraine, Libya or the constant threats from DPRK her eyesight is still set on dealing with the rise of China. While plenty Americans don't think the US government is overstretching herself, recent 180 degrees policy reverse speaks otherwise (Cuba and Iran comes to mind). Playing too many regime change games has only backfired resulting all the chaos we are seeing today. The EU certainly isn't exactly thrilled of the idea of sheltering the huge amount of refugees inflow so to speak (thanks to the US). And with the economic woes still going on in the region it made sense for most of the EU members to join AIIB and start looking out for their own interests thus giving the US outcry the finger.

The US is seeking a direct confrontation with China with slandering news in regards to the land reclamation activities in SCS which she has no business with in the first place as she is not even a stakeholder. Yet all she can do is sending surveillance aircrafts to monitor how China is expanding her islands and telling us to halt the constructions. Sorry to disappoint the US but the rest of the world doesn't seem to care as they are embroiled with their own more pressing matters and China certainly will not obey such ridiculous demand. The time has come for China to make a firm stance and being assertive. The Americans don't have the guts to push a war with Russia or China, who do they think we are? Shepherds armed with AK-47?