usa makes war with pakistan?

[Always Neutral]

First of all as i have noticed most people here really really exaggerate the capabilites of the US and really underestimate of what pakistan can and cannot do. Saying so does not mean that i doubt the US war waging capabilities.
QUOTE]

Firstly I don't think Pakistan is in any danger of any attack from anybody. The top leadership (both civilian as well as military) have excellant relationships with the USA. The only scenarios I forsee of a hypothetical attack will be in the following scenarios

a. Some misguided elements in the Pakistan Army launch an attack on US interests in Afghanistan as retaliation for the FC incident.

b. There is coup in Pakistan la Zia style with it the nuclear button passing onto unreliable / Islamist hands.

The US campaign will be sudden and most probably India co-ordinated. If that happens the PNavy and P Af will most probably be decimated on ground or in harbor. What ever assets which survive will most certainly not have safe harbors or airports to land onto.

However the Pakistan Army will be a different ball game and I don't think the US will attempt to engage them on the ground.

All in All I doubt it will happen as that would be final nail in the coffin of world peace.

Regards

 

[IceCold]

The US campaign will be sudden and most probably India co-ordinated. If that happens the PNavy and P Af will most probably be decimated on ground or in harbor. What ever assets which survive will most certainly not have safe harbors or airports to land onto.

AN what makes you come to this conclusion that PAF and PN will decimated on grounds and harbors? What makes you think that we will not put up a fight just because we are up against USAF or USAN? I already mentioned this point in my previous post, that do not mistake pakistan for iraq where migs were flying towards the opposite direction of their enemy or were buried in the sand. My friend this isnt gonna happen. I've already mentioned the reason why. PAF is not an iraqi style rag tag airforce, be smaller in size, it will give US a piece of its mouth before US is able to neturalize it inorder to maintain complete air superiority over pakistan.
Also If india decides to join in the conflict, obiviously from pakistan's point of view it will be suecidal to wait and watch and get destroyed in the process, it will become obivious for us that if india attacks pakistan with US coordination we will retaliate with Nuclear. The logic is simple, if we go down and that too because of india we will take india down with us.

One more thing be it Zia style government or anyone else, its the decision that is made by the people of pakistan and which will have to be accepted by the West. If west considers it a threat, then so be it but we ant gonna vote someone in or out according to the likes and dislikes of the US. Having said so from the election being held in pakistan and the government being formed as a direct result of it, it should be evident now that pakistanies are not extremist and we believe in living and letting others live too and there is no room for extremist left in the pakistani society.

 

[Tang0]

If the president gave the order, within a week from today 8 b-2 bombers, a dozen f-22's, and 200-300 cruise missiles could be on their way to just about any target in the world. No nation in the world has any credible defense against those weapons, the US included. Combined those weapons have enough destructive capacity to take out the majority of the fighting capacity of the PAF. That is just the first wave, the US could simply use its conventional fighters/bombers to screen against offensive action by the PAF, and in the BVR world, Pakistan does not stand a chance. The US could place 3 aircraft carriers in the Indian ocean within the same time frame, who combined could probably equal the capability of the PAF. If the US military gets to choose the time and place of a battle, it will win it. If of course, the US is dragged into a conflict before it is prepared, well, that is a different story is it not?

If those figures don't convince you, then nothing will, so I rest my case.

Also, this is just silly "armchair warrior" stuff at this point, so I will shut up now.

 

[xishan786]

If the president gave the order, within a week from today 8 b-2 bombers, a dozen f-22's, and 200-300 cruise missiles could be on their way to just about any target in the world. No nation in the world has any credible defense against those weapons, the US included. Combined those weapons have enough destructive capacity to take out the majority of the fighting capacity of the PAF. That is just the first wave, the US could simply use its conventional fighters/bombers to screen against offensive action by the PAF, and in the BVR world, Pakistan does not stand a chance. The US could place 3 aircraft carriers in the Indian ocean within the same time frame, who combined could probably equal the capability of the PAF. If the US military gets to choose the time and place of a battle, it will win it. If of course, the US is dragged into a conflict before it is prepared, well, that is a different story is it not?

If those figures don't convince you, then nothing will, so I rest my case.

Also, this is just silly "armchair warrior" stuff at this point, so I will shut up now.

Well Tango let me tell you few more things though, people above have must cleared your mind but still I would like to add few things.

Air force, Army and Navy , you could see them seperate forces , calculae their strengths and plan for their destruction-- Plan-- but brother all these force combine to form national defence and these forces work in conjuction with each other for a single purpose - defence of pakistan-

If U move a level up we have Jiont directorate which is being strengthened more and more,along with three forces it has with its power nukes and accessoriries we have our own thinks tanks and if i ma not wrong even GHQ has this one seperate cell they call startegic pallning divison whose sole work is to plan startegically - not millitarilly.

Now thoese fans of american powers tell me if an attack is in progress and we come to know-- yes we have aour own intelligence clintons attck on taliban pakis were aware of it- coming to pointdo u think we will spare thoese countries which will allow their air space to be used? just a lttle hint how about USA would all that fire in it (*( when a dozen nuke caped missile heading toward Israil?? then maybe moving these missiles to Iran and firing it toward Major European capitals. -- this is what they call strategic thinking and just imagine if it is pre- emptive???

by the way even[ALLAH Forbid] if u wipe out the whole national defence what do u think peopleof pakistan would put garland in your necks?? we are martial races and belive me you will find a suice bomber ready to send American in hell on every inch of this sacred land.


but Death before disgrace

 

[Tang0]

xishan786: Read my statements carefully in context, I was just talking about the PAF and PN, not about an invasion.

 

[Always Neutral]

Well Tango let me tell you few more things though, people above have must cleared your mind but still I would like to add few things.


by the way even[ALLAH Forbid] if u wipe out the whole national defence what do u think peopleof pakistan would put garland in your necks?? we are martial races and belive me you will find a suice bomber ready to send American in hell on every inch of this sacred land.


but Death before disgrace

Dear X and IC,

Both of your are going overboard on bravado and short on commansense.

US attack is highly unlikely unless Pakistan plunges into a civil war and US interests are directly threatened.

Why I gave PA a better chance than the PN and PAF was not because they are bad but because unlike the PA the PN and PAF can only operate from airfields and harbours which will be the first targets of the cruise missile attacks.

You still donot have a credible missile defence system for that.

Also in the event of a civil war (i know its hypothetical) the US assets will be aimed against the precieved enemy (in this case the rebel force) of Pakistan and not against Pakistani people so the crossing of the nuclear threshold is unlikely.

Regards

Regards

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Also in the event of a civil war (i know its hypothetical) the US assets will be aimed against the precieved enemy (in this case the rebel force) of Pakistan and not against Pakistani people so the crossing of the nuclear threshold is unlikely.

Not true.

A US attack on the military will only occur in the worst case scenario. If it were to happen, it would be a safe assumption that the US would be looking to completely destroy Pakistan's conventional and nuclear military capability.

That indirectly meets the criteria of Pakistan's supposed nuclear doctrine, since a destruction of Pakistan's military would leave Pakistan completely vulnerable to India, and hence would be a potential crossing of the nuclear threshold.

 

[Always Neutral]

Not true.

A US attack on the military will only occur in the worst case scenario. If it were to happen, it would be a safe assumption that the US would be looking to completely destroy Pakistan's conventional and nuclear military capability.

That indirectly meets the criteria of Pakistan's supposed nuclear doctrine, since a destruction of Pakistan's military would leave Pakistan completely vulnerable to India, and hence would be a potential crossing of the nuclear threshold.

Again I think you are wrong. US will only attack targets which threaten its forces not Pakistani people or all military targets. Infact the operations will be in support of the Pakistani forces not against them. Nor will the USA allow India to harm Pakistan as an unstable Pakistan is in no ones interest.

Regards

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Again I think you are wrong. US will only attack targets which threaten its forces not Pakistani people or all military targets. Infact the operations will be in support of the Pakistani forces not against them. Nor will the USA allow India to harm Pakistan as an unstable Pakistan is in no ones interest.

Regards

Why on earth would the US attack "select Military targets"?

It will either be selective targets like what you have now, or it will be an all out assault against the Pakistani military.

The only "select targets" I can think of would be Pakistan's nuclear assets, and considering the fact that Pakistan considers them its guarantee against Indian aggression, why would it hesitate to threaten to cross the nuclear threshold were those assets to be attacked?

Also remember that those assets are widespread, so attacking them will involve a very extensive military assault - it will be considered a declaration of war against Pakistan by the US, and it will be a war Pakistan will not win, so threatening the nuclear option would be its only option to prevent such an assault.

 

[Always Neutral]

Why on earth would the US attack "select Military targets"?

It will either be selective targets like what you have now, or it will be an all out assault against the Pakistani military.

The only "select targets" I can think of would be Pakistan's nuclear assets, and considering the fact that Pakistan considers them its guarantee against Indian aggression, why would it hesitate to threaten to cross the nuclear threshold were those assets to be attacked?

Also remember that those assets are widespread, so attacking them will involve a very extensive military assault - it will be considered a declaration of war against Pakistan by the US, and it will be a war Pakistan will not win, so threatening the nuclear option would be its only option to prevent such an assault.

There is no possible scenario after 9/11 which will pit USA vs Pakistan on opposite sides of the table. 9/11 was wisely diffused by Gen M without any short term harm to Pakistan.

As regards selected military targets I have said the same in context to the two scenarios I have stated in my first post for eg. Due to another FC type incident a small group of misguided people may use PA assets to threaten the US and the US maynot have the time to get the PA to bring these radicals under control in that event onlu will the US attack such elements. All out war against the nation of Pakistan will not only be foolish but totally counterproductive. The world has accepted the fact that not much can be done about Pakistan's and India's nukes and thats that.

Regards

 

[IceCold]

If the president gave the order, within a week from today 8 b-2 bombers, a dozen f-22's, and 200-300 cruise missiles could be on their way to just about any target in the world. No nation in the world has any credible defense against those weapons, the US included. Combined those weapons have enough destructive capacity to take out the majority of the fighting capacity of the PAF. That is just the first wave, the US could simply use its conventional fighters/bombers to screen against offensive action by the PAF, and in the BVR world, Pakistan does not stand a chance. The US could place 3 aircraft carriers in the Indian ocean within the same time frame, who combined could probably equal the capability of the PAF. If the US military gets to choose the time and place of a battle, it will win it. If of course, the US is dragged into a conflict before it is prepared, well, that is a different story is it not?

If those figures don't convince you, then nothing will, so I rest my case.

Also, this is just silly "armchair warrior" stuff at this point, so I will shut up now.

Tango you are right and here no one is doubting US capabilities. I already mentioned it in my first post that no one doubts US war waging capabilities. But having said so, i was resting my case on a totally different base. You see unlike in Iraq where jets were burried in sands, we donot have any sands for this job, also you mentioned the B-2 bombers, yes certainly they are the main threat as they cannot be picked up by radars, however in a likely conflict when the air space of pakistan will be closed and all PAF assets will be on patrol to monitor the airspace, how likely it would be for a B-2 to skip the watchful naked eye of the PAF and attack. F-22 yes another threat and a very serious one, we certainly have no answer to it but saying that in the BVR world pakistan does not stand a chance, is simply very much underestimating of the PAF capabilities. BVR isnt some magic science that we cant master, and if you are talking about a conventional fight with your F-18s, F-15s against our F-16s, JF-17 and FC-20, i dare say you will know for the first time what is it to be up against a professional air force. F-22 is an altogether different story and certainly although not proven in actual combact, it can take things out before anyone will know it.
For the cruise missle thing yes certainly, as we donot have any creditable deterrence against it but then again is there any deterrence at all. I also mentioned the same thing, How would US stop pakistani cruise missiles, yes you guys do have a capability but that is not 100% which means that any likely chance your anti system fails, you can predict the results whether its a battle group or areas in afghanistan.
But then again having said so, i have absolutely no reason to believe that US will attack Pakistan at anytime soon( reasons i mentioned in my first post, oil being the top) and turn an ally into a foe over nothing.

 

[IceCold]

Dear X and IC,

Both of your are going overboard on bravado and short on commansense.

US attack is highly unlikely unless Pakistan plunges into a civil war and US interests are directly threatened.

Why I gave PA a better chance than the PN and PAF was not because they are bad but because unlike the PA the PN and PAF can only operate from airfields and harbours which will be the first targets of the cruise missile attacks.

You still donot have a credible missile defence system for that.

Also in the event of a civil war (i know its hypothetical) the US assets will be aimed against the precieved enemy (in this case the rebel force) of Pakistan and not against Pakistani people so the crossing of the nuclear threshold is unlikely.

Regards

Regards

Not true AN infact you have completely underestimated PAF. If you read my first post, what i wrote i backed it up with facts. There was no aerial fight at all during all the conflicts and therefore maintaining complete air superiority was no big deal. I just said that this will not happen with Pakistan, reason being that PAF is not an air force that would hide its tail between its legs and run away. That's not going to happen.

 

[araz]

My 2 paisas worth is as follows.
America has yet to attack a nation which can respond to it in equal manner. Our response will be short lived but it will send a feww bady bags back, which is something they cannot tolerate. So on balance they wioll choke us first by sanctioning us and putting financial pressure on us. If it comes to war, and I hope to God there is no war, it would have devastating short and longterm consequences for Pakistan . However, what would America do if we Nuked its fleet in the indian ocean? Bomb us with Nukes and start the 3rd World war? So I think this willl be awar won by a combination of sanctions and installing a puppet regime rather than an outright military adventure.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[cactuslily58]

My 2 paisas worth is as follows.
America has yet to attack a nation which can respond to it in equal manner. Our response will be short lived but it will send a feww bady bags back, which is something they cannot tolerate. So on balance they wioll choke us first by sanctioning us and putting financial pressure on us. If it comes to war, and I hope to God there is no war, it would have devastating short and longterm consequences for Pakistan . However, what would America do if we Nuked its fleet in the indian ocean? Bomb us with Nukes and start the 3rd World war? So I think this willl be awar won by a combination of sanctions and installing a puppet regime rather than an outright military adventure.
WaSalam
Araz

Though a situation like this will never arise, just to take the discussion fwd :

1. USA has already attacked parts of Pakistan more than once.

2. If things come to a head, why should it attack Pakistan when sanctions will do the trick. Unlike Iraq, there is no oil to sell , nor can Pakistan expect aid / help from either of its neighbors.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Though a situation like this will never arise, just to take the discussion fwd :

1. USA has already attacked parts of Pakistan more than once.

2. If things come to a head, why should it attack Pakistan when sanctions will do the trick. Unlike Iraq, there is no oil to sell , nor can Pakistan expect aid / help from either of its neighbors.

The US has only attacked AQ/Taliban targets - and most analysts assume with the implicit approval of the GoP.

What we are referring to is an attack on Pakistani Government assets - the military, nuclear facilities etc. That is a threshold the US is not close to crossing.

Even in the bombing of the FC post, the US has gone out of its way to state that it did not deliberately target the post, and has initiated a joint investigation into the incident and argued for better communication to avoid such incidents - indicating IMO that it is not a line it wants to cross at this point.

As far as sanctions go, what exactly will they accomplish?