US will not recognize China's air defence zone, Biden tells Xi

[xunzi]

It is laughable that you think that was the gist of my argument. But then difficulties of comprehension of complex arguments seems to be normal for the Chinese members here anyway.

Like I said, an ADIZ is a declaration of increased and exceptional authority and controls of an area of international airspace. This declaration treads the fine line between excising this area from international airspace and make it an extension of one's own territorial airspace. When the US did it for North America, of course there were anxieties from other countries precisely because of that fear, but the US and Canada made clear the limits, area and rules wise, plus every country realize that given the geography of the Western Hemisphere countries, it is easy to enter Central and South American countries without even touching the North American ADIZ.

It goes this way: An ADIZ is not a mandatory thing to have but if a country decides to create and maintain one, prior to the creation of such, extensive analyses must be done to see if one's proposed ADIZ intrudes into foreign territorial airspace and/or existing ADIZ, analyses of air traffic corridors and potential deviations within, the rules and their scope of the new ADIZ, the response capabilities, and finally, how about a simple gesture of courtesy to the neighbors?

Chinese decision on ADIZ not a wise course of action: Hagel | Business Standard

This was sheer incompetence and disrespect to international courtesy from China.

Sheer bullshit. When the US created Japan ADIZ, did they consult us? That is a question you need to answer in itself. In fact, China and Russia never recognized Japan ADIZ.

As a matter of fact, there was report from Korea that prior to our creation of ADIZ, we did consult South Korea a few week earlier and our ADIZ establishment paper got its way to Japan.

As far over overlapping, Japan unilaterally extending of its ADIZ overlapping with Taiwan ADIZ in 2012, did the world make a big fuss over it? No. So now why all of a sudden we did and they start crying? You see, playing this double-game ain't working with us. If you want to be objective, act like one. Then we might "reconsider" our approach to international courtesy.

Answer the question: Is this China's first ADIZ or not?

Irrelevant question. It will be the first and won't be the last.

Even if there was an ADIZ back then, the US would still be within international laws and rights since the recon flights were conducted in international airspace. The most China could have done was to escort the EP-3 while it conduct its mission, no different than what we did with the Soviet bombers outside Alaska. But from the way you talk, you already consider an ADIZ territorial airspace. Congratulations on your feeble understanding of the issue.

As we have said and it's time you need to get through your thick brain. We consider an ADIZ an extension to monitor and protect our national airspace and never consider it a sovereign airspace. What we will do if an unidentified plane in our ADIZ zone depends on the threat perception, the same as what the US would do.

My prediction is that despite obedience to the ADIZ rules, there will be a measure of incompetence and arrogance on the Chinese part that will result in a tragedy. If the Chinese members here is a reflection of China, there will be a tragedy.

Unfortunately, tragic happens when one country playing a double-game is not obeying the same rule they are set out to preach. My friend, you see... we always consider all strategic option to limit you and your ally advantage in our space.

 

[gambit]

Sheer bullshit. When the US created Japan ADIZ, did they consult us? That is a question you need to answer in itself.

The Japanese ADIZ was created shortly after WW II when the US occupied and effectively controlled Japan. There were flights in/out of Japan and Japan, despite the devastation of war, was an established aviation power. China was not.

In fact, China and Russia never recognized Japan ADIZ.

If China refuse to acknowledge the Japanese ADIZ, then do not demand Japan to recognize China's.

As a matter of fact, there was report from Korea that prior to our creation of ADIZ, we did consult South Korea a few week earlier and our ADIZ establishment paper got its way to Japan.

As far over overlapping, Japan unilaterally extending of its ADIZ overlapping with Taiwan ADIZ in 2012, did the world make a big fuss over it? No. So now why all of a sudden we did and they start crying? You see, playing this double-game ain't working with us. If you want to be objective, act like one. Then we might "reconsider" our approach to international courtesy.

Pay attention, this is going to be detailed and involve critical thinking and I cannot dumb it down further...

We have three flights: A, B, and C.

Given geographical layout of the entire Western Hemisphere, and we shall look at the US for now, the only way to enter US domestic airspace is to pass through the ADIZ, as in flight A. You would have to file a flight plan and once you are inside the ADIZ, you have to obey ADIZ rules.

If you are flight C, there is nothing for you to do. You do not even enter the ADIZ.

But if you are flight B, there are questions and issues. Since the only way to enter US domestic airspace is thru the ADIZ...

1- Where is your flight plan?

2- If you did not file a flight plan, then what are you doing inside the ADIZ in the first place?

3- If you did filed a flight plan, assuming to enter US domestic airspace, why are you deviating from your stated intention?

All three questions warrant interceptions. Look at the ADIZ themselves on both coasts. Do flights need to enter them in order to get to Central or South America? No. You can fly from Europe straight to Mexico or Brazil without coming close to the American East Coast ADIZ. You can fly from China to Mexico or Chile without coming close to the American West Coast ADIZ.

If you are flying inside the American ADIZ but you did not come from the outside, then you departure point must be from the inside, correct? And if your departure point is already inside the ADIZ, then you must have a filed flight plan and have to obey the ADIZ rules regardless of final destination, which may be Mexico or further south.

Geography is why we said that if you are inside our ADIZ, you must have a filed flight plan because we are quite certain either you departed from the interior or you came from the outside with the intention of entering domestic US soil as final destination.

Geography is why we said we do not apply our ADIZ rules to flights that have no intention of entering domestic US airspace simply because you can go to our neighbors without even coming close to an ADIZ, let alone the territorial 12 mile limit.

Here is an exercise for you...

Route Map | Jetstar

Plug in Japan and Taiwan and see the path a Jetstar flight must fly. Now see if you research the air corridors in that area for ALL carriers. There are many flights that do not enter Chinese domestic airspace but NOW they will enter a Chinese ADIZ. The Chinese rules are clear enough: All must file flight plans regardless of intention.

This is why you cannot -- or rather SHOULD NOT -- take the American ADIZ rules and use it for China without consulting neighbors who have been using these corridors FOR DECADES without molestation, and for those same decades, China have been getting by just fine with all those traffic without an ADIZ. This is far more about territorial dispute than about national security concern and this is why Japan expanded her ADIZ. And this is not going to bode well for China in the long term.

The Chinese members here have effectively said tens of thousands of aviation professionals, from pilots to attorneys to administrators, are stupid.

Irrelevant question. It will be the first and won't be the last.

It is not irrelevant. It begs the question of competency.

As we have said and it's time you need to get through your thick brain. We consider an ADIZ an extension to monitor and protect our national airspace and never consider it a sovereign airspace. What we will do if an unidentified plane in our ADIZ zone depends on the threat perception, the same as what the US would do.

The way the PLAAF flew against our EP-3, China considered that airspace at that time, to be territorial airspace. Here is what you, someone who probably at most been in the air as cargo, do not understand. There are actually equal restraints in international airspace just as in domestic airspace, especially when there are other flyers around. Before the US engage in exercises in international waters or airspace, we do extensive reconnaissance and send out much notifications to give others alert on what may be going on inside the area, and we do not engage in maneuvers outside the boundaries we set for ourselves.

So when the PLAAF intercepted our EP-3, the way the Chinese pilots flew gave notice to the world that China viewed the surrounding international airspace pretty much territorial airspace. The Chinese pilots revealed they have poor air discipline. This is not about merely flashing hand gestures or girlie pictures at other flyers. The Chinese pilots flew too close to the larger EP-3 too often and the odds finally tragically caught up to Cdr Wang. If that was in international airspace, who know how discipline the Chinese pilots flew in domestic airspace where China have no private aviation to speak of and to worry about.

Unfortunately, tragic happens when one country playing a double-game is not obeying the same rule they are set out to preach. My friend, you see... we always consider all strategic option to limit you and your ally advantage in our space.

Complete nonsense. Looks like you did not research KAL 007.

 

[jhungary]

The Japanese ADIZ was created shortly after WW II when the US occupied and effectively controlled Japan. There were flights in/out of Japan and Japan, despite the devastation of war, was an established aviation power. China was not.


If China refuse to acknowledge the Japanese ADIZ, then do not demand Japan to recognize China's.


Pay attention, this is going to be detailed and involve critical thinking and I cannot dumb it down further...

We have three flights: A, B, and C.

Given geographical layout of the entire Western Hemisphere, and we shall look at the US for now, the only way to enter US domestic airspace is to pass through the ADIZ, as in flight A. You would have to file a flight plan and once you are inside the ADIZ, you have to obey ADIZ rules.

If you are flight C, there is nothing for you to do. You do not even enter the ADIZ.

But if you are flight B, there are questions and issues. Since the only way to enter US domestic airspace is thru the ADIZ...

1- Where is your flight plan?

2- If you did not file a flight plan, then what are you doing inside the ADIZ in the first place?

3- If you did filed a flight plan, assuming to enter US domestic airspace, why are you deviating from your stated intention?

All three questions warrant interceptions. Look at the ADIZ themselves on both coasts. Do flights need to enter them in order to get to Central or South America? No. You can fly from Europe straight to Mexico or Brazil without coming close to the American East Coast ADIZ. You can fly from China to Mexico or Chile without coming close to the American West Coast ADIZ.

If you are flying inside the American ADIZ but you did not come from the outside, then you departure point must be from the inside, correct? And if your departure point is already inside the ADIZ, then you must have a filed flight plan and have to obey the ADIZ rules regardless of final destination, which may be Mexico or further south.

Geography is why we said that if you are inside our ADIZ, you must have a filed flight plan because we are quite certain either you departed from the interior or you came from the outside with the intention of entering domestic US soil as final destination.

Geography is why we said we do not apply our ADIZ rules to flights that have no intention of entering domestic US airspace simply because you can go to our neighbors without even coming close to an ADIZ, let alone the territorial 12 mile limit.

Here is an exercise for you...

Route Map | Jetstar

Plug in Japan and Taiwan and see the path a Jetstar flight must fly. Now see if you research the air corridors in that area for ALL carriers. There are many flights that do not enter Chinese domestic airspace but NOW they will enter a Chinese ADIZ. The Chinese rules are clear enough: All must file flight plans regardless of intention.

This is why you cannot -- or rather SHOULD NOT -- take the American ADIZ rules and use it for China without consulting neighbors who have been using these corridors FOR DECADES without molestation, and for those same decades, China have been getting by just fine with all those traffic without an ADIZ. This is far more about territorial dispute than about national security concern and this is why Japan expanded her ADIZ. And this is not going to bode well for China in the long term.

The Chinese members here have effectively said tens of thousands of aviation professionals, from pilots to attorneys to administrators, are stupid.


It is not irrelevant. It begs the question of competency.


The way the PLAAF flew against our EP-3, China considered that airspace at that time, to be territorial airspace. Here is what you, someone who probably at most been in the air as cargo, do not understand. There are actually equal restraints in international airspace just as in domestic airspace, especially when there are other flyers around. Before the US engage in exercises in international waters or airspace, we do extensive reconnaissance and send out much notifications to give others alert on what may be going on inside the area, and we do not engage in maneuvers outside the boundaries we set for ourselves.

So when the PLAAF intercepted our EP-3, the way the Chinese pilots flew gave notice to the world that China viewed the surrounding international airspace pretty much territorial airspace. The Chinese pilots revealed they have poor air discipline. This is not about merely flashing hand gestures or girlie pictures at other flyers. The Chinese pilots flew too close to the larger EP-3 too often and the odds finally tragically caught up to Cdr Wang. If that was in international airspace, who know how discipline the Chinese pilots flew in domestic airspace where China have no private aviation to speak of and to worry about.


Complete nonsense. Looks like you did not research KAL 007.

This is probably the third time I say the stuff I am about to say here.

As far as I can see, not one, NOT A SINGLE ONE of the Chinese member or member who support what the Chinese ADIZ as a good idea know exactly what is a ADIZ.

Lol, ADIZ is the responsibility of the host country to uphold, not anyone else to comply.

To be fair, ADIZ is useless in today world as you can do absolutely NOTHING to a non-compile target in your ADIZ except send up a pair of fighter to escort it.

They don't realise why its bad that they say they will shot down an bogey when they violate the ADIZ . That is the exact point of misappropriate use of an ADIZ, this is the exact reason this is an accident waiting to happen.

Sigh

By the way, my wife used to work as a hostie for jets tar for 3 month when we move to Australia